The Original CZ Forum

GENERAL => General Firearms Discussion => Topic started by: Vinny on February 05, 2019, 10:16:28 AM

Title: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: Vinny on February 05, 2019, 10:16:28 AM
I've often wondered if there is a standard to know if your firearm is ready to be trusted for personal defense?

Personally, I go through a break-in period of about 500-1000 rounds, then I expect at least another 1,000+ failure-free rounds (with field-strip clean & lube every 350-500 in between) before I trust the gun for defensive duty.

However, I know some folks will buy a new firearm, shoot a box or two of ammo and begin carrying.

So, I came across this article about the US Military's initial testing of the SIG P320. Seems 2,000 Mean Rounds Between Stoppage is the standard? When NATO tested the P-01, it apparently averaged over 6,000 MRBS.

 "The Army had a requirement for the new pistols to be able to shoot 2,000 rounds straight without a stoppage at least 95 percent of the time on average. The service defined a stoppage as any instance in which the guns stopped functioning normally, but where the user could get the weapon running again without the need for tools or replacement parts.

With the XM1153 hollow point, the M17 hit the 95 percent reliability mark, while the M18 managed just slightly better at 96 percent. But when troops loaded up magazines with the XM1152, the results were dismal. The full-size gun had only a 75 percent probability of functioning properly, while the compact version was barely over 60 percent."

I'm interested to hear other's take on this, and any standards for personal carry.   -Vinny
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: Grendel on February 05, 2019, 10:24:42 AM
Me:

Quote
However, I know some folks will buy a new firearm, shoot a box or two of ammo and begin carrying.

'Past performance is no guarantee of future performance.'
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: Tenbones on February 05, 2019, 10:58:18 AM
Me:

Quote
However, I know some folks will buy a new firearm, shoot a box or two of ammo and begin carrying.

'Past performance is no guarantee of future performance.'

This!

Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: Vinny on February 05, 2019, 11:15:08 AM
The only guarantees in life are Death and Taxes.
But.....Military and Police armorers follow procedures to increase the probability a gun will function properly when needed. Following an initial break-in procedure and maintaining a log of maintenance, parts or spring changes, identifying causes of failures IE: a specific magazine, all with the goal of staying ahead of known issues before they happen.

Meanwhile.... Instructors teach tap-rack techniques to train for clearing a minor malfunction.

I'm interested in increasing my odds.

Just curious what others do.
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: daved20319 on February 05, 2019, 11:45:28 AM
I figure 500 consecutive rounds with no failures is good enough for carry, odds are, if it's going to break, it'll do it sooner rather than later.  As mag issues are the most common failure point, I carry a spare.  And I tend to look at the first 100 or so as break in and familiarization, a few FTF's or FTE's in a tight new gun I consider somewhat expected.  That said, the last new gun I bought was a Taurus PT 92, had lots of extraction issues out of the box, turned out to be a burr in the extractor groove, once I figured out the problem, it was an easy fix, and the gun has been flawless ever since.  Oh, and as I generally buy lower level or used guns, I expect a few minor issues, but with one exception with an air rifle I had, I've always been able to diagnose and fix the problem.  Maybe I'm just a mechanical genius  8)!   Later.

Dave
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: Phlyers13 on February 05, 2019, 01:11:43 PM
I train and practice to make sure I am reliable with a firearm before I carry it.  By the time I am comfortable I have drawn it hundreds of times and run hundreds of rounds through a multitude of drills.  To me this is more important than an arbitrary round count. 
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: Montesf1030 on February 05, 2019, 01:38:11 PM
I usually do 200 rounds right after purchasing a firearm... Give it a good cleaning and them do another few range trips till I do another 500 rounds ( one third defensive ammo )... That should give you a great benchmark of the reliability...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: Joe Allen on February 05, 2019, 02:08:48 PM
200 to 500 rounds, including 100 rounds of defensive ammo.

Once I'm happy, it goes into carry duty and then gets fired very little. I'll have a second of the same (or usually a fullsize version of a compact) for practice, training and competition. When it acts up, I'll have a better idea what to look ahead for in the carry version.

Ironically, the carry gun that rarely if ever gets fired will get more maintenance than the "beater" gun. It'll be cleaned and inspected every month or so, while the other... well I just cleaned my IDPA/class gun, full size 75, after ~5K rounds. Dropped the barrel in the ultrasonic and, when I turned it on, what looked like the smoke monster from Lost came out of it! The slide and frame were disgusting too. I really should detail strip it, but I'll wait till it hiccups. If it ever does. The only thing I've found that will choke it is bad (or just overly long) ammo.
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: adrian on February 05, 2019, 03:37:20 PM
     Hiya Vinny and thanks for the interesting thread, and the replies so far. Wish our guns had a fired rounds odometer to help quantify everyones experience. I'd think 200 rounds malfunction free would be a comfortable place. Add to that the practice one does for fun the first month or three you get a new to you gun. I've also included an additional 200 rounds of the actual "defense" ammo i.e.. hollow points, +p ammo, magnum, and corresponding for shotgun ammo. Ruled in was a po-2 omega ,and po-1 omega, the cz .380 forgot the model, as a backup, and Benelli entry M4. Ruled out were the Rami and cz 712 shotgun which never could get to 200 without a malfunction, usually feed/cycle/ejection issues. Also wonder if some parts require replacement before breakage that are rounds fired and add to that factory ammo verses ammo powered up for defense or competition. At the range,or mid competition you get really thrown off your game when a slide stop decides to shear in two. ha. Same goes for trigger springs breaking. I also hate to think one would have to invest in two cases of self defense ammo to make that determination. That alone could range 500 to 2000 extra bucks. Ouch. Thanks for the chance to chime in. And with cops having average hit rates of 20-30 percent, hope ya consider a new thread along ,When is the operator reliable enough for defense? Cheers.
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: Vinny on February 05, 2019, 04:05:39 PM
Some really good suggestions here, so far.

I like Joe's beater gun idea. It kinda tells you what to expect from your EDC, so you can service it before it happens.

Round-O-meter....good idea too Adrian! (get a patent...haha).
I shoot over 25,000 rounds/year so I need to stay on this.
I keep a small spiral-bound 3x5 index card book in my range bag. Takes a few seconds to write down date, gun, rounds of each ammo fired and any issues or comments.  Later, when it's gun cleaning time, I simply transfer this data into a book for each gun.

Specific guns seem to develop a pattern over time.

Like my SIG 229 now with 6900 rnds. needs careful attention to cleaning every 300-500 rnds especially throat, and recoil spring every 3,000rnds or it will start having failure to go into battery. Otherwise flawless. So I know what it takes now for it to run 100%

My P-07's on the other hand seem to be much more tolerant to not cleaning nearly as much. They just feed anything and keep on ticking.

Thanks, Keep the ideas coming.
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: MadDuner on February 05, 2019, 07:05:17 PM
I?ve been carrying and shooting my old P-85 Ruger for over 30 years, pretty much shooting it every weekend to remain proficient with it.  It failed to eject a few times at roughly 40,000 rounds, and a new ejector spring cured it.  Now at beyond 50,000 rounds - I?m thinking about retiring the poor old thing. It's been basically flawless all this time, but it?s bound to be getting closer and closer to the failure point.  I?d sure hate for it to happen just when I needed it most!

I am not sure exactly what I will replace it with....
Whatever the replacement is, it must be SA/DA with a hammer.
I love my SP-01 Tactical.  I just hate the idea of beating it up through daily abuse like the Ruger received. 

And to the original question?
I want to get a good ?feeling? about any new carry gun, which involves shooting a couple hundred defensive rounds of the +P 124gr hollow point variety - in addition to hundreds of target FMJs.  It seems like a waste of ?good? ammo, but you HAVE TO KNOW it works in the new weapon if you are going to trust your life to it.
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: Vinny on February 05, 2019, 08:16:30 PM
I?ve been carrying and shooting my old P-85 Ruger for over 30 years, pretty much shooting it every weekend to remain proficient with it.  It failed to eject a few times at roughly 40,000 rounds, and a new ejector spring cured it.  Now at beyond 50,000 rounds - I?m thinking about retiring the poor old thing. It's been basically flawless all this time, but it?s bound to be getting closer and closer to the failure point.  I?d sure hate for it to happen just when I needed it most!

I am not sure exactly what I will replace it with....
Whatever the replacement is, it must be SA/DA with a hammer.
I love my SP-01 Tactical.  I just hate the idea of beating it up through daily abuse like the Ruger received. 

And to the original question?
I want to get a good ?feeling? about any new carry gun, which involves shooting a couple hundred defensive rounds of the +P 124gr hollow point variety - in addition to hundreds of target FMJs.  It seems like a waste of ?good? ammo, but you HAVE TO KNOW it works in the new weapon if you are going to trust your life to it.
Replace your Ruger P85 with 50,000+ rounds you've trusted as EDC for 30+ years? That's a tough act to follow. How about finding a low mileage one (I see several listed on GunBroker) and apply Joe Allen's 'beater gun' strategy to your old one keeping the 'newer' gun as your EDC? 
Or....a P-07 which might be close to the P85 Ruger 9mm DA/SA decocker??
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: MadDuner on February 06, 2019, 06:20:49 AM
I?ll have to take a close look at the P07.
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: alva8193 on February 06, 2019, 08:40:03 AM
200-500 rounds of break in typically, but I have carried a gun from the box to holster without even test firing it before
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: daved20319 on February 06, 2019, 11:07:40 AM
I?ve been carrying and shooting my old P-85 Ruger for over 30 years, pretty much shooting it every weekend to remain proficient with it.  It failed to eject a few times at roughly 40,000 rounds, and a new ejector spring cured it.  Now at beyond 50,000 rounds - I?m thinking about retiring the poor old thing. It's been basically flawless all this time, but it?s bound to be getting closer and closer to the failure point.  I?d sure hate for it to happen just when I needed it most!

I am not sure exactly what I will replace it with....
Whatever the replacement is, it must be SA/DA with a hammer.
I love my SP-01 Tactical.  I just hate the idea of beating it up through daily abuse like the Ruger received. 

And to the original question?
I want to get a good ?feeling? about any new carry gun, which involves shooting a couple hundred defensive rounds of the +P 124gr hollow point variety - in addition to hundreds of target FMJs.  It seems like a waste of ?good? ammo, but you HAVE TO KNOW it works in the new weapon if you are going to trust your life to it.

If you like the SP-01 Tactical, maybe look at a Phantom?  Polymer frame, so lighter, maybe a better choice for a gun you expect to "beat up"?  Later.

Dave
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: Vinny on February 06, 2019, 11:30:51 AM
200-500 rounds of break in typically, but I have carried a gun from the box to holster without even test firing it before
Wow! From the box to holster....I guess you subscribe to: "Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it."

It's really interesting to get various opinions. 

I guess I'm a little more OCD and want to be absolutely CONFIDENT it's going to go BANG before I trust to carry. I've seen so many guns fail especially during break-in. However, with attention to detail I can usually sort them out.
But I'm also a guy who services a vehicle on schedule, and typically gets 350,000+ miles on my cars with original engine and transmission, then selling for more $ than I paid because they're antiques by then. lol  - YMMV 
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: DenStinett on February 06, 2019, 11:21:18 PM
My DTD is a 10mm Witness Semi Compact that I trust with my life
BUT, when I go into known Bear Country, I carry my 5.5" 44 Red Hawk in a Chest Crossdraw with 2 extra Speed Loaders
Yeah, the 10mm will do the job on a 150-300 lb Black Bear
But I have yet to have Cycle Issue or any type of Action Malfunction with a Ruger Wheelgun
You pull the Trigger on a (loaded) Wheelgun, it'll go bang, every-time
(https://beta-static.photobucket.com/images/h414/denstinettm14/Wheelguns/44MagRedhawk.jpg)

And my Wife doesn't leave home without her Ruger .327 SP-101
(https://beta-static.photobucket.com/images/h414/denstinettm14/Wheelguns/327FMSP101-1.jpg)
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: adrian on February 07, 2019, 12:25:52 AM
     Hiya,chiming in again. Ya Vinney,I agree box to holster isn't the norm. And could get a little gooey from the mess's I've unboxed. Have also tried to nurse a couple Nissans to 250k, but they need facelifts after 10years. And guns are a tool as well, don't think I'd want to know I was buying one with 360,000 rounds come and gone either. And as usual the voice of reason Den chimeing in with those cool wheel guns. and have to agree I'd never had feeding problems with either colt python I've owned. But I never much cared for the face,mouth,eyeful of hot crud spuing when I fire 357 rounds out of them.Since I'd be toast after the first round shot without eye protection ,personally could only use them for range fun.Den hows your finger?hand holding up?. Be well.
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: lewmed on February 07, 2019, 12:20:35 PM
 Adrian if you want that fine revolver to stop spitting crap in your face have the forcing cone recut to 11 degrees.
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: bang bang on February 07, 2019, 05:22:45 PM
when my jedi mind tricks quit working......
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: Hammer Time on February 08, 2019, 08:21:58 PM
My standard is to put 500 rounds of mixed ammo through the gun without a cleaning. If there are no issues in that time, I consider it GTG.

Not surprisingly, both of my CZ's have far exceeded that standard.
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: armoredman on February 09, 2019, 11:41:46 PM
Once I fired a pistol straight from the box - CZ P-01. Worked perfectly.

Usually I will put about 200 rounds through a SD pistol prior to trusting it, and finding a good round it will shoot POA. After that it will get shot if I am at the range, with time to kill, and oh, looky! A book of 9mm relaods is in the range bag, hmm, what to do. ;)
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: Indy_Tim on February 13, 2019, 07:48:29 AM
It really depends on the pistol for me.  If it?s a brand new type of gun for me, I?ll run it at least 500 rounds just to get the feel of it and make sure it?s reliable.  If it?s a second iteration of what I already have, that number will drop to around 250 to 300. 

In 2017, I started to buy a second iteration of any gun I carried.  Initially, I was doing the same thing as Joe, run one on the range and carry the other, but lately, I?ve changed it up to run one on the range for a couple of trips then clean, lube and then move that gun to carry status and move the carry gun to be the next range gun.  By doing that, I keep both at about the same round count and they both get cleaned and lubed more consistently.  I tend to shoot twice a week minimum, and carry guns get shot frequently, so they rotate from range to carry about once a month.

Also, 9mm CZs tend to run really well, so I?ll generally carry them after only 200 to 300 rounds of testing but .40 CZs can be finicky and will sometimes go 700 or more rounds before I fully trust them.  With Glocks, it?s the opposite.  .40 cal Glocks run really well where as I?ve had problems with the 9mm Glocks.  In those cases, I?ve just sold the 9mm Glocks and replaced them with P10Cs.
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: DOC 1500 on February 13, 2019, 03:35:04 PM
Research, research, research!
 after buying my P-07,
 I Wanted a P-O9..
Went through numerous websites to see how everyone liked it. Search through 100 videos.
 What really put me over the top was everybody on this forum expressing near five-star ratings.
So glad I bought the P-O9. Thoroughly cleaned it,
Did all the suggested polishing and stoning , sprinkle in some cajun spice,
WooHoo..😎
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: Tyerone on February 17, 2019, 09:59:59 AM
210 rounds through my Sig P365, it went on duty for the first time yesterday.  Although it has primer wipe, it is not to the edge and I believe that the batch of defective srtikers I learned of through research are long gone and QC improved.  No magazine scratches from poorly sized trigger return spring problems at the launch.  No unusual wear.

It cycles ammo from crappy 105 gr SP nontoxic, 150 gr subsonic, and many more stout samples in between, including 66 of those rounds with my SD preference.  No problems after soaked overnight in sub zero temperature.

It took nearly 500 rounds before I deemed the Rami was ready for SD duty.  It had problems out of the box and took a trip back to CZ to make it right.

Way back when, it took 266 rounds to determine that a Keltec PF9 would never suit my comfort for SD duty.  It never failed with 115gr fodder, but stumbled with my preferred 147gr HST or Ranger Ts at that time.  Sure Keltec could have serviced it, but I just thought the construction, especially the Frankenbolt was just too suspect.  My LGS took it back at a reasonable loss.

A revolver takes much fewer rounds for me to be comfortable that it will reliably go bang.  More time was needed for this operator to gain comfort with the nuances associated with loading and clearing the Charter Arms pitbull .40 with its use of non-rimmed cartriges different from standard revolver calibers/chambers.

My primary SD guns aren't used like range toys.  Once in the rotation, they may just cycle a mag or two when the dust bunnies build up and to keep the carry ammo more fresh than required.  This helps to maintain confidence in the arm and my use of it.  Of couse, when a new mag us purchased, it will have to verified for proper feeding.

Clean and repeat.
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: CZ_FANATIC on February 17, 2019, 11:58:50 AM
The only semi automatic pistols I trust my life with are Glocks.
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: Tyerone on February 17, 2019, 12:04:10 PM
The only semi automatic pistols I trust my life with are Glocks.

Right out of the box?  Any scientific evaluation of the specific samples used?
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: CZ_FANATIC on February 17, 2019, 12:14:41 PM
The only semi automatic pistols I trust my life with are Glocks.

Right out of the box?  Any scientific evaluation of the specific samples used?

Yep, I keep them stock. My Glocks have NEVER had any kind of malfunction. Total Reliability with any kind of ammo.
Title: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: Indy_Tim on February 17, 2019, 12:38:54 PM
The only semi automatic pistols I trust my life with are Glocks.

Glocks have been one of my most trouble prone pistols.  I like them but they are no more reliable than anything else.  Just this week, my Gen 3 G23 that has given me over 3k rounds of trouble free service suddenly began having issues.  I have not sorted it out yet, but it?s definitely not ammo related.  I sold both of my G19s because they consistently put brass into my face.  Both of my G30s have BTF issues to when I run target ammo.  The only way to stop them from doing that is to reload a special batch of ammo that?s on the stout side.  Others have had stovepipe issues but only occasionally.  My first G19 would not cycle a complete mag of ammo without a failure.  It needed to run with a light recoil spring and aftermarket guide rod until north of 150 rounds.  After that, it worked but with a consistent BTF issue.

Don?t buy into the Glock ?Perfection? BS.  They are great pistols when proven, but can fail just like any other.  Always remember that they are cheap molded polymer pistols filled with stamped steel, MIM and some milled parts.  They get their reliability through simplicity, but the cheapness of the components themselves can lead to issues.
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: CZ_FANATIC on February 17, 2019, 01:07:39 PM
I'm not a Glock fan boy, I just know that my Glocks have been 100% flawless. I cant say this about other brands, CZ included.
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: Tyerone on February 17, 2019, 01:10:37 PM
... and practice how you will carry.  Weren't there significant numbers of problems with at least  one the several itterations of perfection once a light was mounted to the rail?

Change the grips?  Test for reliability again.  Buy a new pair of gloves, test again. Right hand, left hand, new holster...  You get the idea; better safe than sorry.
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: eastman on February 17, 2019, 01:13:21 PM
The only semi automatic pistols I trust my life with are Glocks.

After the G41 that I used to own, I would never trust my life to a Glock
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: adrian on February 17, 2019, 02:27:19 PM
     Hiya, the again for the thread. Find the platform,caliber,make and model that works for you. And the differences are preference. Keep a spare reliable one in a friends safe and or safe deposit box should old reliable suddenly be stolen,lost etc. And hope an altercation never ends with finding yourself at the wrong end of your reliable shooter. Even being on the right end and it will end up in a property room for half dozen years,if used for defense. Be well.
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: Indy_Tim on February 17, 2019, 04:55:27 PM
I'm not a Glock fan boy, I just know that my Glocks have been 100% flawless. I cant say this about other brands, CZ included.

I didn?t mean to say you were being a fan boy, but just wanted to point out that they are production pistols built to a price point and can fail just like any other gun.
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: nettle on February 17, 2019, 09:13:05 PM
It's 1000 rounds before I totally trust a gun for self defense.
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: Tyerone on February 17, 2019, 10:41:39 PM
It's 1000 rounds before I totally trust a gun for self defense.

?
.. of your SD  carry rounds?  Under ideal conditions good enough for you?   Even if those thousand casings just dribbled  out?

Merely evaluating round count doesn't cut it for me.  YMMV
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: wdbutcher on February 17, 2019, 10:52:15 PM
Research, research, research!
 after buying my P-07,
 I Wanted a P-O9..
Went through numerous websites to see how everyone liked it. Search through 100 videos.
 What really put me over the top was everybody on this forum expressing near five-star ratings.
So glad I bought the P-O9. Thoroughly cleaned it,
Did all the suggested polishing and stoning , sprinkle in some cajun spice,
WooHoo..😎
Exactly, I'm sure that everyone here reads as many reviews or watches as many videos as possible on any handgun they would ever considering using for self defense. I prefer to let the experts with years of experience put 1000s of rounds through various makes and models of handguns before I decide to make the investment in a pistol of one brand or another. This has worked well for me so far, but that doesn't mean we won't come across a problem child along the way.
 I believe that a person should put at least 300 or more rounds through any pistol to know what to expect before I'd bet my life on it. Especially the ammo you plan to use for self defense.
 I've got a CZ P-07 that has run flawlessly for over 600 rounds that I've kept in my night stand for a couple of years now. I also have a CZ SP-01 that I bought used that had some issues that kept it from being my first choice for a self defense pistol, even though I've never read a bad review on a SP-01.  Later I found most of my problems were caused by operator error, but it still proves you need to know your pistol before you can depend on it to protect your life.
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: bayouredd on February 22, 2019, 08:56:24 PM
Personally, I think it to be a bit more than most list here. Hopefully, experience has folks analyzing and buying models tested & trusted as a whole, first of all. After this fact, note that gun A is not gun B of the same model. Mechanics & physics determine that, whether we like it or not. This is why some trust their model, while other hate theirs of the same model.

When you have done this homework first, then you decide whether reliability is at a premium with different ammo, recovery with jams and such, even if self created and overall trust.

I think that trust in reliability is more of a personal note. I have had zero failure in my CZ75 matte stainless while trying to make it fail by mix and matching ammo, not cleaning it for 1000 rounds of multiple range sessions in a 2 month span & even limp wristing it. No failure whatsoever. I have had this same success with a Bursa Thunder 380 that was my 1st CC piece. The funny thing is that neither are presently my carry or bedside weapon.
Why? Because I personally have the utmost confidence in my P01 on my nightstand & a Browning 1911-380 for my CCW. Both of these have had a minor problem during break in, but none after the fact.

This is more of a personal comfort than anything else & I believe this to be as much a priority as anything else. Familiarity with overall performance & recovery needs to be trusted. This is as much a personal thing as a mechanical one...
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: RSR on February 22, 2019, 10:11:59 PM
New?  Hand cycle slide 500 times and leave locked back overnight.  Shoot 500 rounds of ball -- a mix of lower pressure and NATO-spec.  And then run 100 rounds of whatever duty/self defense ammo I plan to use.  Ideally, sticking w/ whatever 2-3 mags I'll be using for primary carry.

For used guns w/ unknown history, replace all the critical springs and then do the same as above.  And if used mags w/ unknown history, replacing the springs there is also a good idea.
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: MadDuner on February 23, 2019, 09:19:13 AM
Devils Advocate.....
We sure spend a lot of time, effort and ammo testing a weapon that will only need to go BANG 4 or 5 times before it ends up in an evidence locker for years.

A good shooting buddy of mine only carries the cheapest thing he can find, that way he?s not ?losing? a valuable gun in a self-defense shooting.  I personally value my life more than that.  How much a weapon costs has zero bearing on whether I carry it or not. I want the most accurate and reliable thing I can ?hide? on me at all times.  If it saves my life it is worth more thanI paid for it.
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: Chuck James on February 23, 2019, 10:51:13 AM
New and used, a couple hundred rounds and I'm good to go for a self defense piece. After that I only deem it unreliable when it fails. At the point of failure I will correct the problem, fire a couple hundred rounds and move.
 
I do not put a whole lot of faith in opinions or reviews when it comes to the function and reliability of guns. There are way to many variables involved, the main one being the person doing the shooting.
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: Chuck James on February 23, 2019, 11:11:42 AM
My DTD is a 10mm Witness Semi Compact that I trust with my life
BUT, when I go into known Bear Country, I carry my 5.5" 44 Red Hawk in a Chest Crossdraw with 2 extra Speed Loaders
Yeah, the 10mm will do the job on a 150-300 lb Black Bear
But I have yet to have Cycle Issue or any type of Action Malfunction with a Ruger Wheelgun
You pull the Trigger on a (loaded) Wheelgun, it'll go bang, every-time
(https://beta-static.photobucket.com/images/h414/denstinettm14/Wheelguns/44MagRedhawk.jpg)

And my Wife doesn't leave home without her Ruger .327 SP-101
(https://beta-static.photobucket.com/images/h414/denstinettm14/Wheelguns/327FMSP101-1.jpg)



The only pistol I've ever had a complete 100 percent failure with was a revolver. It completely stopped firing with 5 live rounds left in the cylinder. It was the funniest thing you ever saw. A friend of mine was firing it, the look on his face was priceless. First round fired then he stood there pulling the trigger as fast as he could and nothing. This was my go with me everywhere piece at the time. I had about 700 rounds through it at the time of failure.
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: RSR on February 23, 2019, 06:01:44 PM
Devils Advocate.....
We sure spend a lot of time, effort and ammo testing a weapon that will only need to go BANG 4 or 5 times before it ends up in an evidence locker for years.

A good shooting buddy of mine only carries the cheapest thing he can find, that way he?s not ?losing? a valuable gun in a self-defense shooting.  I personally value my life more than that.  How much a weapon costs has zero bearing on whether I carry it or not. I want the most accurate and reliable thing I can ?hide? on me at all times.  If it saves my life it is worth more thanI paid for it.

Devil's advocate -- that time, effort, and ammo testing isn't about weapon reliability but rather shooters skill/reliability when under threat. 

Mechanically, the 500 hand cycle round and leaving slide locked back overnight is a good for spring and any metal rough edges break in for gun-makers like Sig that don't have machines to hand cycle brand new guns like CZ-UB does.  Clean after. 
500 rounds of ball puts gun under full force/live pressure to ensure everything functions, and the 100 rounds of SD ammo testing is primarily to ensure it feeds and ejects w/o issue w/ that gun and mags.  And then clean and lube after.  This is effectively one range trip.

The thousand of add'l rounds are all about developing shooter proficiency, and for recreation.  But YMMV.
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: RSR on February 23, 2019, 06:03:37 PM
New and used, a couple hundred rounds and I'm good to go for a self defense piece. After that I only deem it unreliable when it fails. At the point of failure I will correct the problem, fire a couple hundred rounds and move.
 
I do not put a whole lot of faith in opinions or reviews when it comes to the function and reliability of guns. There are way to many variables involved, the main one being the person doing the shooting.

Springs are cheap, and worn springs may not result in failures but do result in add'l wear and tear on gun, especially with +P or +P+ self-defense ammo.  That wear and tear is more likely to result in parts and pins breakages that could have been prevented for typically less than $20 and nearly always less than $50 to $100 in springs.
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: Chuck James on February 23, 2019, 09:23:40 PM
New and used, a couple hundred rounds and I'm good to go for a self defense piece. After that I only deem it unreliable when it fails. At the point of failure I will correct the problem, fire a couple hundred rounds and move.
 
I do not put a whole lot of faith in opinions or reviews when it comes to the function and reliability of guns. There are way to many variables involved, the main one being the person doing the shooting.

Springs are cheap, and worn springs may not result in failures but do result in add'l wear and tear on gun, especially with +P or +P+ self-defense ammo.  That wear and tear is more likely to result in parts and pins breakages that could have been prevented for typically less than $20 and nearly always less than $50 to $100 in springs.

Sounds like good advice and is really just basic maintenance of a firearm.

Springs are a wear item that definitely need to be changed from time to time.
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM on February 24, 2019, 05:55:41 AM
My DTD is a 10mm Witness Semi Compact that I trust with my life
BUT, when I go into known Bear Country, I carry my 5.5" 44 Red Hawk in a Chest Crossdraw with 2 extra Speed Loaders
Yeah, the 10mm will do the job on a 150-300 lb Black Bear
But I have yet to have Cycle Issue or any type of Action Malfunction with a Ruger Wheelgun
You pull the Trigger on a (loaded) Wheelgun, it'll go bang, every-time
(https://beta-static.photobucket.com/images/h414/denstinettm14/Wheelguns/44MagRedhawk.jpg)

And my Wife doesn't leave home without her Ruger .327 SP-101
(https://beta-static.photobucket.com/images/h414/denstinettm14/Wheelguns/327FMSP101-1.jpg)



The only pistol I've ever had a complete 100 percent failure with was a revolver. It completely stopped firing with 5 live rounds left in the cylinder. It was the funniest thing you ever saw. A friend of mine was firing it, the look on his face was priceless. First round fired then he stood there pulling the trigger as fast as he could and nothing. This was my go with me everywhere piece at the time. I had about 700 rounds through it at the time of failure.

So what was the failure? My only case of total gun failure was my early production CZ P-07 Duty. @ 650 rnds the trigger bar and spring dropped out and it was totally useless.
As with most here I run through a break in period. Minimum 500 rnds practice ammo plus at least 200 rnds of various defensive ammo. After that I practice with the gun often and keep it clean and well maintained. My PCR is north of 10,000 rnds fired now and is still my go to gun.
Title: Re: When is your gun reliable enough for Defense?
Post by: Chuck James on February 24, 2019, 11:39:48 AM
My DTD is a 10mm Witness Semi Compact that I trust with my life
BUT, when I go into known Bear Country, I carry my 5.5" 44 Red Hawk in a Chest Crossdraw with 2 extra Speed Loaders
Yeah, the 10mm will do the job on a 150-300 lb Black Bear
But I have yet to have Cycle Issue or any type of Action Malfunction with a Ruger Wheelgun
You pull the Trigger on a (loaded) Wheelgun, it'll go bang, every-time
(https://beta-static.photobucket.com/images/h414/denstinettm14/Wheelguns/44MagRedhawk.jpg)

And my Wife doesn't leave home without her Ruger .327 SP-101
(https://beta-static.photobucket.com/images/h414/denstinettm14/Wheelguns/327FMSP101-1.jpg)



The only pistol I've ever had a complete 100 percent failure with was a revolver. It completely stopped firing with 5 live rounds left in the cylinder. It was the funniest thing you ever saw. A friend of mine was firing it, the look on his face was priceless. First round fired then he stood there pulling the trigger as fast as he could and nothing. This was my go with me everywhere piece at the time. I had about 700 rounds through it at the time of failure.

So what was the failure? My only case of total gun failure was my early production CZ P-07 Duty. @ 650 rnds the trigger bar and spring dropped out and it was totally useless.
As with most here I run through a break in period. Minimum 500 rnds practice ammo plus at least 200 rnds of various defensive ammo. After that I practice with the gun often and keep it clean and well maintained. My PCR is north of 10,000 rnds fired now and is still my go to gun.

Broken firing pin.  :o

Like you, I shoot my carry, self defense piece alot. I do not squirrel it away in order to keep wear and tear down.