Post by: Lord_Balkan on January 11, 2020, 10:29:04 AM
Post by: BStill on January 11, 2020, 10:52:32 AM
Smallest: if you're willing to drop below 9mm, there are (old-school) pocket pistols in the smaller calibers (25acp/32acp). Beretta Tomcat (3032) is in that category.
9mm in a slim single-stack: original Ruger LC9, but reviews aren't very positive. Springfield XDE, but it's taller in grip height than all the strikers.
9mm double-stack that compare well to the Rami: I like the H&K (P2000sk/P30sk) but they are too expensive for me. A neat compromise design is the Walther P99cAS: although its a striker, it has a decocker that lets you put it in a DA/SA mode. Good ergo and nice smooth trigger in DA. Hard to find as may no longer be in production.
lastly, the Kahr (CM9 or CW9) seems to be a good compromise for a small 9mm single-stack. Striker design, but trigger feels more like a light/smooth DAO revolver. No manual safety, and the trigger shoe doesn't have that annoying blade safety.
good thread.
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Post by: Linejudgemick on January 11, 2020, 10:53:12 AM
Post by: Double Tap on January 11, 2020, 11:36:16 AM
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Post by: jurek on January 11, 2020, 12:12:17 PM
I have been looking at smaller guns I can conceal easily, but I honestly am a bit scared to carry striker fired guns.
Don't be scary. I started with striker PPQ and was scared too. I went through few forums, reading about this, and ended up with P-01 (which is hammer). And after few months I'm thinking about going back to striker. (for CCW purposes only... I'm not giving up my CZ, it's a great shooter)
So everything is about "mindset and practice" (thanks Double Tap for this great phrase! )
Post by: Hammer Time on January 11, 2020, 12:50:07 PM
Alternately, you can insert the pistol in the holster first before you put it on, and then mount the holster on your belt.
Post by: AZ_CZ on January 11, 2020, 12:56:21 PM
Post by: Tanners Owner on January 11, 2020, 08:02:13 PM
What I’m getting at is, while I am more comfortable with the revolver, I also recognize the shortcomings revolvers have when compared to current carry pistols. Of those, striker fire guns when combined with proper holsters, belts and cover garments work just fine and present no safety issues.
Ultimately it comes down to your familiarity, level of training and comfort when choosing your carry gun.
You voice a valid concern. What’s helped me was shooting my carry gun in IDPA matches. As such I have no aversion to carrying a striker gun with a round in the chamber.
Post by: seebee62 on January 12, 2020, 04:21:14 PM
Hundreds of thousands if not millions CC striker fired pistols. It's a matter of mindset and practice. No fear is necessary, just respect for what you carry.
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That’s it right there nuff said.
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Post by: DWARREN on January 12, 2020, 05:21:59 PM
The 365 has safety on one model. People not the firearm is what is safe.
Post by: Claymore504 on January 12, 2020, 08:34:05 PM
Post by: M1A4ME on January 13, 2020, 06:47:09 AM
My carry is a P07. I have carried P01s. I mean concealed carry.
Striker fired pistols? Still looking for one that shoots like the P07 and P01.
Are they okay shooting the groups they shoot? I'm still struggling with that.
I will say that the M&P Performance Center Shield 9MM I bought for her a few months back is the most accurate striker fired gun I've ever shot. I shoot smaller groups with it (and hot 115 grain hollow points) than with the full sized M&Ps, the XDMs, the Browning, the Beretta, the Glock and maybe some others I've left out. Yeah, it shoots better groups than some hammer fired pistols.
People on the M&P Forum tell me the Shields have a different barrel lock up design that the full sized pistols. Maybe that's why it shoots better.
You can buy M&P Compact striker fired pistols with thumb safeties. Takes some aftermarket parts to make them shoot better. To be fair, every now and then you can buy a CZ that won't shoot as good as many of them do.
S&W is making a couple pistols now that look like striker fired pistols (no visible hammer) but have internal hammers. The .380 EZ and the new 9MM EZ. The .380 EZ I bought has been reliable, but not accurate. Those have a grip safety on the back of the frame. And you can get a version of it with thumb safeties, too.
If the aim is concealed carry, add holster availability, magazine cost, and possible replacement sight availability to your research.
Post by: Double Tap on January 13, 2020, 07:24:08 AM
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Post by: Hammer Time on January 13, 2020, 10:57:10 AM
It's entirely possible to have excellent reliability and accuracy, and not be lugging a brick around all day.
Post by: Wobbly on January 15, 2020, 11:43:56 AM
But striker-fired guns have an un-deniable better trigger pull on first shot, giving them a higher percentage of good hits right off. Additionally, SF guns are typically plastic and therefore much more comfortable to carry. So when I carry my new P10c hiking, it's for protection from animal attack. I can conceive slightly more reaction time with rabid animals and simply decided to carry on an empty chamber.
This may not be your situation, but it's a half-way position I've adopted to help me deal with the total picture.
;)
Post by: lewmed on January 15, 2020, 12:28:17 PM
Post by: seebee62 on January 15, 2020, 01:22:41 PM
I put my IWB Holster and gun(which is a Vedder Light Tuck) in my waistband. When I come home it’s the opposite holster and gun come out together.
If I were to carry my CZ P07 I do the same.
Even when I put a gun in the holster I check the that there’s no obstructions in the holster and point everything in a safe direction as I put the gun in.
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Post by: Atomic Punk on January 15, 2020, 09:28:21 PM
Not sure if they make them for any other striker fired guns but it seems like a great idea.
Post by: CzechnoWizard on January 15, 2020, 09:36:31 PM
One thing I would offer: if you are worried about AD while holstering, recall that striker guns usually have a trigger face safety, whereas DA guns do not. Also remember that holstering is almost never something you must do in a hurry, while drawing and shooting almost always will need to be fast, instinctive, and intuitive.
Lastly, in evaluating striker designs, understand there are several systems on the market. GLOCK is somewhat unique in being a true DAO design. The striker is not "cocked" until the trigger is compressed. There is no stored energy in the striker spring waiting to "go off" if dropped etc. Others, springfield for example, are partial precock designs aimed at improving trigger pull. These systems are closer to a SAO trigger, albeit with heavier pull. All have multiple safeties built in such as a striker block, trigger blade safety, etc but I regard the glock design as being inherently safer than those which involve keeping the striker partially cocked between shots. If you want to fear something I think you should fear forgetting to decock before holstering, forgetting to apply the safety if employing cocked and locked carry, forgetting to flick a safety off during the draw, or failing to master the da/sa transition in a high stress situation. I see no reason to be uncomfortable with strikers even if we all know how much sweeter a da/sa hammer gun can be!
Post by: BStill on January 15, 2020, 10:11:00 PM
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Post by: jurek on January 15, 2020, 11:01:57 PM
just curious if, in theory, you can work on a Glock trigger, or any striker, in order to increase the pull weight? What is so special about a 5 pound trigger pull? why not 8-9 pounds?I'm not sure if 5 is the magic number, but 4 - 5 pounds trigger pull makes all shots accurate (you don't need to fight with trigger, just pull and bum). 4 - 5 is still safe using proper holster and following all safety rules.
Post by: BStill on January 16, 2020, 06:24:59 AM
agree... but hypothetically.... "what if" someone had become familiar and comfortable with a heavier trigger pull because maybe they've carried a tuned up DAO snubbie revolver for a long time, but also likes the form factor of a Glock for ease of carry and shooting ergos. Just asking if it's technically/mechanically possible to increase the weight at which the Glock trigger breaks? or even increase the weight of the take-up to simulate a length of pull before the break?just curious if, in theory, you can work on a Glock trigger, or any striker, in order to increase the pull weight? What is so special about a 5 pound trigger pull? why not 8-9 pounds?I'm not sure if 5 is the magic number, but 4 - 5 pounds trigger pull makes all shots accurate (you don't need to fight with trigger, just pull and bum). 4 - 5 is still safe using proper holster and following all safety rules.
thx
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Post by: jurek on January 16, 2020, 08:45:48 AM
agree... but hypothetically.... "what if" someone had become familiar and comfortable with a heavier trigger pull because maybe they've carried a tuned up DAO snubbie revolver for a long time, but also likes the form factor of a Glock for ease of carry and shooting ergos. Just asking if it's technically/mechanically possible to increase the weight at which the Glock trigger breaks? or even increase the weight of the take-up to simulate a length of pull before the break?If somebody is ok with heavy pull - that shouldn't be a problem. All is about accuracy of the shot. But why do this? It would be like disabling power steering in your car :-\
thx
Actually I've got a good experience with this recently. I've shot few rental firearms with my friend and noticed each one has different trigger pull weight. It was probably my habit / preference - but definitely I was more comfortable and more accurate with pistol with lighter trigger pull (VP9) than the heavier one (SIG365). From security perspective - both pistols are the same.
Increasing Glock's trigger pull??? I have no idea. I don't shoot Glocks. I will probably leave Glock outside and wait until it get rusty to make its trigger heavier... :P ;)
Post by: crosstimbers on January 16, 2020, 01:25:23 PM
Post by: Atomic Punk on January 16, 2020, 05:13:14 PM
just curious if, in theory, you can work on a Glock trigger, or any striker, in order to increase the pull weight? What is so special about a 5 pound trigger pull? why not 8-9 pounds?
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NYPD Glocks have a 12lb! :o trigger pull so it can certainly be done.
Post by: CzechnoWizard on January 16, 2020, 09:32:45 PM
Yes. Exactly, in fact the parts needed are referred to as a ny1 or ny2 trigger. I see no benefit in wrecking an otherwise reasonable and responsible trigger weight, but it certainly can be done.just curious if, in theory, you can work on a Glock trigger, or any striker, in order to increase the pull weight? What is so special about a 5 pound trigger pull? why not 8-9 pounds?
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NYPD Glocks have a 12lb! :o trigger pull so it can certainly be done.
Post by: Rotorflyr66 on January 26, 2020, 02:13:04 PM
If you're in a situation where you "have to" re-holster quickly, such as the cops screeching to a halt a few ft away, just drop (or place) the gun on the ground in front of you and worry about the potential scratches to it's finish later....I know some people envision the bad guy sticking around to shoot them when they do but, more then likely, in reality they aren't going to be sticking around as those cop cars are screeching to a halt because they 1) They don't want to get arrested and C) They don't want to get shot...by multiple cops.
Just carry what you shoot best, can conceal well and carry comfortably, if that's a 3lb 12oz Desert Eagle, go for it....If it's a 25oz Glock 48, great, If it's an 8oz KelTec P3AT, then do that....
Post by: ohiodff on January 31, 2020, 03:57:47 PM
I also went to a kydex holster only. I used to (and still do) love the Aliengear that I have, but my work is a CPZ so having to disarm/rearm 1-2 times every day brings in a lot of risk with that holster. Going with kydex made it so much nicer to just remove the holster with gun and putting it back on is a breeze as well - no trigger exposure at all. I'm 100% kydex now which is too bad, because the Aliengear is such a comfortable ride.
CZ needs to make a single stack 9mm!
Post by: Firemanjones on February 01, 2020, 09:20:05 AM
The striker fire pistol I have and carry is a Walther P99 which is DA/SA.
Post by: BStill on February 01, 2020, 09:28:16 AM
Call me old fashion, but is it DA/SA for me when carrying.I handled a P99cAS a couple years ago. Great design. Hard to find.
The striker fire pistol I have and carry is a Walther P99 which is DA/SA.
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Post by: mrcabinet on February 01, 2020, 09:33:11 AM
https://www.ebay.com/itm/AGC-Grip-Micro-Trigger-Stop-Holster-For-Kel-Tec-P3AT-380/264524169023?_trkparms=aid%3D1110002%26algo%3DSPLICE.SOI%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20200116171858%26meid%3Daa946052a44c4bcba7c5b6d26d61b3d8%26pid%3D100008%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D264524170598%26itm%3D264524169023%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100008.m2219
Post by: Cyanide on February 15, 2020, 03:05:33 PM
I carry IWB and used to exclusively carry a true DAO (hammer or striker didn’t matter as long as it was a long revolver-style trigger pull and reset ala Beretta “D” models or CZ 100/Walther DAO P99), but over the last few months have slowly worked a “traditional” striker fire into my rotation as my primary EDC with the Glock 26 and 45, and will eventually add a P-10 S. Along with that I switched from leather holsters to Kydex (Davis Tactical) and hybrid (Stealthgear), and haven’t looked back, especially since I’ve also started carrying appendix due to losing a few pounds and being able to use that option when not wearing at the 3 to 4 o’clock position.
I still shoot my hammer DAO’s and DA/SA’s a lot at the range, but have no worries about strikers, especially with a good, rigid holster that fully covers the trigger guard.
Post by: BStill on February 15, 2020, 03:53:35 PM
- started with double-stack 9mm with thumb safety (mainly because I couldn't find a good DA/SA gun compact enough and cheap enough, and the Taurus G2C had good ergo for me, and was cheap to start with
- wanted something smaller and went to a snubbie DAO revolver. sacrificed ergo/shootability for concealment and the security of DAO
- wanted something slimmmer so started looking for single-stack 9mm. Recently shot a friend's Glock 43 at the range and liked it, so just bought a used one. Also found a trainer online describing the gun/holster as a system, and viewing the (good) holster as the physical safety device for the system. Which was a very helpful ConOps to make me comfortable carrying a striker gun like a Glock.
Besides range training to actually build competence shooting a new gun, my training method to get myself comfortable carrying and handling (donning/arming/de-arming) a new gun:
- carry it with an empty mag for a week or so;
- experiment with different holsters and/or carry positions as necessary.
- pick a holster/carry position and carry it in that configuration with a full mag but empty chamber for another week or so;
- un-holster and field strip the gun several times during this trial period, whether I shoot and clean it or not, to become intimately familiar with the gun.
- develop/practice my mental checklist and habit patterns while identifying and improving/fixing any elements of risk.
- once confident and comfortable with that particular gun and holster configuration, physically as well as mentally, I go live with it (full mag and round in the chamber).
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Post by: SigSense on February 17, 2020, 02:54:25 PM
Post by: Double Tap on February 17, 2020, 03:18:20 PM
Last month I changed my CC pistol from a Glock 26, back to a CZ75 P01. The Glock was smaller and obviously a striker fire. My issue was my confidence with re-holstering during stressful, real-life incidents, and the Glock's round capacity. It took a real-life incident for me to re-examine my choice and I went back to the CZ. So as others have wisely advised, you need to practice and see what works for you. I have been shooting/owning hammer-fired, DA-SA semi-autos for 40 years. I have since sold my Glock 26.I find your post interesting. Why did you have lack of confidence in reholstering a striker-fired pistol?
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Post by: Stojanovich on February 17, 2020, 06:20:11 PM
I have been looking at smaller guns I can conceal easily, but I honestly am a bit scared to carry striker fired guns. I like the DA/SA especially when re-holstering- I can hold on to the hammer to ensure there is no accidental discharge. Is this fear justified? I was looking at the CZ Rami for CC but people seem to complain about the weight. The P365 looks great and actually fits great in my hands, but the striker fire mechanism has me a bit worried. I am a new / beginner shooter. What do you-all think?
I say, carry whatever you're comfortable carrying! I'm 60 and was a very late convert to striker-fired pistols but, now I actually prefer my HK VP9SK over any of my previous CCW. It's the lightest, most accurate compact semi-auto I've ever owned and in 3500+ rounds has never malfunctioned once.
As far as safety concerns, that's something you can work-thru with training and repetition. The key was finding a holster that fit well and worked well and for me, it was a Vedder IWB. Like you, I had my reservations but now I don't feel any less-safe carrying a striker-fired pistol than I do when carrying a hammer-fired pistol.
(https://i.imgur.com/XneNR61.jpg?1)
Post by: SigSense on February 18, 2020, 07:48:28 AM
I find your post interesting. Why did you have lack of confidence in reholstering a striker-fired pistol?
I was using a leather holster IWB and it did not have the rigidity of a kydex. I had practiced a few times with the draw, then re-holster. When I pulled the G-26 out during the real world incident I was in a car, then when the situation dissipated I was on pavement a few seconds later. The leather had softened over the few years I owned it, and there was difficulty in securely/safely sliding the G-26 back in. Rather than try to ram it in, I thought best to simply hold the pistol. The holster issue wasn't the only reason I went back to the P01. G-26 has max rounds of 13 (1 in the barrel, and 12 in a Magpul mag). P01 is 17.
Post by: Texas377 on February 18, 2020, 03:53:38 PM
Post by: CCWLearner on February 18, 2020, 04:34:52 PM
These days I personally CCW a P-07 decocked, a DAO Sig P290RS, or occasionally my old J-frame revolver. I can carry any of these without any worries, because I can ride the hammer with my thumb when re-holstering. Each is an uncocked DA gun with a long trigger pull, at least for the first shot, each also with a firing pin block to prevent accidental discharge in case of being dropped or other mishap that causes the hammer or something else to smack the back of the firing pin without the trigger being pulled. None of them have manual safeties. They all work more or less the same way and I feel comfortable carrying any of them, holstered, with one in the chamber, either IWB or in a pants or jacket pocket.
Post by: Double Tap on February 18, 2020, 05:26:51 PM
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Post by: SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM on February 18, 2020, 06:02:38 PM
Post by: Mjolnir on February 18, 2020, 06:47:59 PM
I want to emphasize in the strongest possible way this is not intended to insult anyone. If you are have reservations or doubts about carrying a striker-fired handgun with a round in the chamber you need more training. It's that simple. You are not any safer with any other forms of carrying unless you you don't practice proper gun handling techniques.I politely disagree.
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That said, a Glock with a Tau Development Group Striker Control Device or “Gadget” mitigates the potential of having the trigger catch something and fire while reholstering.
The SIG P320 M18 has an external safety that’s very well executed and placed is another option.
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Post by: Tanners Owner on February 18, 2020, 08:56:55 PM
That said, I do carry revolvers at times and in all honesty I do feel slightly more comfortable with them than a striker (or cocked and looked pistol) Key word in the preceding sentence is slightly.
I will not and do not disparage anyone’s choice of carry, as long it’s done discreetly and they are trained/ competent.
Post by: Hammer Time on February 18, 2020, 09:07:02 PM
I will not and do not disparage anyone’s choice of carry, as long it’s done discreetly and they are trained/ competent.
This ^
Post by: seebee62 on February 18, 2020, 09:12:19 PM
The information is out there for the pros and cons of carrying this or that in a certain condition safety or no safety.
Folks here are grown. Make a informed decision based on the pros and cons.
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Post by: Skookum on February 18, 2020, 10:23:26 PM
Why did you have lack of confidence in reholstering a striker-fired pistol?
One possible reason:
https://youtu.be/SSJQdw_RoiA (https://youtu.be/SSJQdw_RoiA)
Post by: Double Tap on February 18, 2020, 10:29:16 PM
The ND happened long after he holstered the gun which leads me to believe that the gun was defective. As for that there are a myriad of possibilities including modifications that were done poorly or incorrectly.Why did you have lack of confidence in reholstering a striker-fired pistol?
One possible reason:
https://youtu.be/SSJQdw_RoiA (https://youtu.be/SSJQdw_RoiA)
We weren't there so we will never know what happened
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Post by: Mjolnir on February 19, 2020, 08:14:05 AM
That one was weird. I’m not sure how the pistol could have been defective to fire on its own. I still think something was contacting the trigger.The ND happened long after he holstered the gun which leads me to believe that the gun was defective. As for that there are a myriad of possibilities including modifications that were done poorly or incorrectly.Why did you have lack of confidence in reholstering a striker-fired pistol?
One possible reason:
https://youtu.be/SSJQdw_RoiA (https://youtu.be/SSJQdw_RoiA)
We weren't there so we will never know what happened
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Post by: Double Tap on February 19, 2020, 09:18:45 AM
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Post by: jurek on February 19, 2020, 11:58:52 AM
One possible reason:This is not because of striker fired firearm. It's because of bad holster or bad re holstering.
For the sake of the discussion we can say something was in the way and moved the trigger. If that is the case then you have operator error because he did not check the holster for obstructionsI agree with this opinion. Firearm is just a tool and it did exactly what it was made for - trigger was pulled and it went off. This guy didn't even checked if the t-shirt wasn't trapped in holster :-X
Post by: Double Tap on February 19, 2020, 12:06:55 PM
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Post by: seebee62 on February 19, 2020, 02:51:25 PM
There definitely was something that came in contact with the trigger.
When he bent down it pushed the gun deeper into the holster and whatever was obstructing the trigger caused the bang.
Put the gun in the holster outside of your waistline then put the whole rig in your waistline. If double belt clips preclude this or make it more difficult stop using double belt clip holsters. At least this method can reduce the chances of a AD.
The person that titled the video
“ This is why I will never carry a firearm without a safety “ Isn’t taking in to account that safety or no safety the obstruction to the trigger is still there. Yes the trigger wouldn’t go back with a manual safety on but if the safety wasn’t engaged for whatever reason and there’s a obstruction that actuated the trigger it would go bang.
Making absolutely sure there is no obstruction to the trigger ,holster the gun outside the waistband. This creates safety redundancy even if there is a manual safety.
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Post by: Double Tap on February 19, 2020, 04:51:01 PM
I first saw this video a few years ago.What you say could be what happened. He did look the gun into the holster. However it's also possible that the striker spring was changed and the wrong one was used or installed incorrectly. Other mods to the gun could have been made.
There definitely was something that came in contact with the trigger.
When he bent down it pushed the gun deeper into the holster and whatever was obstructing the trigger caused the bang.
Put the gun in the holster outside of your waistline then put the whole rig in your waistline. If double belt clips preclude this or make it more difficult stop using double belt clip holsters. At least this method can reduce the chances of a AD.
The person that titled the video
“ This is why I will never carry a firearm without a safety “ Isn’t taking in to account that safety or no safety the obstruction to the trigger is still there. Yes the trigger wouldn’t go back with a manual safety on but if the safety wasn’t engaged for whatever reason and there’s a obstruction that actuated the trigger it would go bang.
Making absolutely sure there is no obstruction to the trigger ,holster the gun outside the waistband. This creates safety redundancy even if there is a manual safety.
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Post by: seebee62 on February 19, 2020, 05:08:52 PM
I first saw this video a few years ago.What you say could be what happened. He did look the However it's also possible that the striker spring was changed and the wrong one was used or installed incorrectly. Other mods to the gun could have been made.
There definitely was something that came in contact with the trigger.
When he bent down it pushed the gun deeper into the holster and whatever was obstructing the trigger caused the bang.
Put the gun in the holster outside of your waistline then put the whole rig in your waistline. If double belt clips preclude this or make it more difficult stop using double belt clip holsters. At least this method can reduce the chances of a AD.
The person that titled the video
“ This is why I will never carry a firearm without a safety “ Isn’t taking in to account that safety or no safety the obstruction to the trigger is still there. Yes the trigger wouldn’t go back with a manual safety on but if the safety wasn’t engaged for whatever reason and there’s a obstruction that actuated the trigger it would go bang.
Making absolutely sure there is no obstruction to the trigger ,holster the gun outside the waistband. This creates safety redundancy even if there is a manual safety.
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In a Glock doesn’t the firing pin safety have to move up for the striker to hit the primer? The trigger bar pushes the firing pin safety up and out of the way to allow the striker to go forward. So the striker shouldn’t hit the round if the firing pin safety is in the way.
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Post by: Skookum on February 22, 2020, 06:43:55 PM
https://youtu.be/5uEW02TbuhU (https://youtu.be/5uEW02TbuhU)
https://youtu.be/GDZS45xt8Io (https://youtu.be/GDZS45xt8Io)
Post by: Double Tap on February 22, 2020, 07:58:23 PM
My safety is my brain and my finger off the trigger until I am ready to shoot
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Post by: jurek on February 22, 2020, 09:48:55 PM
Both these NDs resulted in woundings and look to have involved carry of safetiless sidearms:
These videos are great example of people's stupidity. :o
Post by: seebee62 on February 22, 2020, 09:59:21 PM
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Post by: Skookum on February 22, 2020, 10:06:17 PM
These videos are great example of people's stupidity. :o
People's stupidity is one reason why the affirmative external safety was invented. It appears in both videos that such a safety, if used, would have prevented the ND and resulting wounding. This is true of the first video, too.
In this case the ND of a safetiless Glock resulted in a fatality and a nonfatal wounding:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/indiana-boy-dies-after-father-gun-discharges-play-wrestling (https://www.foxnews.com/us/indiana-boy-dies-after-father-gun-discharges-play-wrestling)
Post by: jurek on February 22, 2020, 10:29:26 PM
Both of those videos are a great examples of careless firearm handling and irresponsibility.
So we agree... careless firearm handling and irresponsibility is equal to stupidity.
Post by: Skookum on February 22, 2020, 11:16:22 PM
In most cases stupidity and that alone is responsible for an ND. However, inherent human nature sometimes plays a role, as studied and empirically documented; e.g.:Both of those videos are a great examples of careless firearm handling and irresponsibility.
So we agree... careless firearm handling and irresponsibility is equal to stupidity.
https://www.forcescience.org/2004/12/can-you-really-prevent-unintentional-discharges/ (https://www.forcescience.org/2004/12/can-you-really-prevent-unintentional-discharges/)
This is why a firearm with an affirmative external safety is safer than one without. Given the empirical evidence the manufacture, sale, purchase, and use of safetiless firearms is fraught with potential liability.
Post by: seebee62 on February 22, 2020, 11:25:46 PM
These videos are great example of people's stupidity. :o
People's stupidity is one reason why the affirmative external safety was invented. It appears in both videos that such a safety, if used, would have prevented the ND and resulting wounding. This is true of the first video, too.
In this case the ND of a safetiless Glock resulted in a fatality and a nonfatal wounding:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/indiana-boy-dies-after-father-gun-discharges-play-wrestling (https://www.foxnews.com/us/indiana-boy-dies-after-father-gun-discharges-play-wrestling)
This is a very sad and unfortunate occurrence but when I researched this incident further the father had the gun tucked in the small of his back no holster is mentioned.
I firmly believe the trigger was pulled in some manner in this situation.
Whether is was the father attempting to keep it from falling out of the back of his pants or the child possibly hitting the trigger as it fell out of the father’s pants.
One news article on the incident mentioned that:
“In Indiana, a person can be charged with felony criminal recklessness if he or she "recklessly, knowingly, or intentionally performs an act that creates a substantial risk of bodily injury to another person" while armed with a deadly weapon”
The manual safety is not a license to be careless.
If a person chooses to carry a firearm that person should exercise responsibility in keep that weapon safely concealed and retained on their person.
If a person wants or needs to perform a act where the gun could be dislodged from their person the gun should be safely stowed away. Any gun safety or no safety.
Elevator guy: Don’t take your gun out unless you intend to use it.
FBI guy: Don’t do back flips while carrying.
Father wrestling with child: Remove your firearm and stow it before playing with the kids.
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Post by: armoredman on February 23, 2020, 01:10:17 AM
One, the Glock system IS precharged before firing, otherwise there would never be a beed to press the trigger to disasseble. The striker is partially cocked until the trigger cocks it fully and releases it, see attached video. That is explained about the 1.58 minute mark.
https://youtu.be/yRJI3QpJGw8
Second, i hated stroker fire guns from the get go, listened to every horror story, saw every video...and then the Dept said congrats - you have to carry a Glock! So, I learned. The one single BIGGEST reason I saw for a Glock or any other striker fired pistol to negligently discharge in the holster was an obstruction in the trigger guard, nothing else. One was in a vehicle because a soft old leather rig got so "floppy" that part of the holster itself inserted into the trigger guard and fired the weapon while reholstering. The takeaway is clear - the fast one handed no-look reholstering taught in many classes are NOT what you need with striker fired pistol and any holster that might have caught part of your covering garment while reholstering. Even if carrying openly with no covering garment - look anyway. If you can't take your eyes off something long enough to look, you might need to keep that sidearm at the low ready, just in case. Also, open trigger guard rigs are NOT good for striker fired pistols. Bad juju as the old saying goes.
Here is my EDC, a CZ P-10C, (first gen with updated slide), in a High Noon Stingray OWB rig.
(https://i.imgur.com/DinFpwQ.jpg)
When unholstering, the standard training I received all these years of "booger hook off the bang switch until go time" keeps me from a premature ejection...but reholstering, I take my time and make sure any covering garment, (I don't carry openly unless in uniform), is clear before sliding the weapon in to the holster. Period. There is no other safe way to do this, no matter the sidearm - a P-01 could have the exact same thing happen if an object was in the way, and the carrier was paying zero attention. Admittedly, the person involved would have to be practically catatonic to NOT notice there was a problem before the sidearm discharged, but theoretically any firearm without a positive manual safety in the on position could have exactly this type of negligent discharge.
Now, doe this mean I think everyone should carry a striker fired pistol and that anyone who doesn't is somehow undertrained? hardly - I carried hammer fired for decades, and would do so again in a heartbeat. I just found my perfect fit with the P-10 series pistols, (to nobodys greater shock than me - even CZ-USA was surprised), and I take the time needed to be completely safe.
Yes, I do carry IWB occasionally, in a High Noon Close Encounter, (made for a P-09, actually fits the P-10C perfectly), and I follow the same drill - watch what I am doing and clear all covering garments away completely. I take longer getting my pants up in a public restroom, but I don't leave a smoking toilet behind. Unless it's Taco Bell, then all bets are off...
Post by: Double Tap on February 23, 2020, 08:57:00 AM
May I interject?BRAVO thank you for the cogent and intelligent answer
One, the Glock system IS precharged before firing, otherwise there would never be a beed to press the trigger to disasseble. The striker is partially cocked until the trigger cocks it fully and releases it, see attached video. That is explained about the 1.58 minute mark.
https://youtu.be/yRJI3QpJGw8
Second, i hated stroker fire guns from the get go, listened to every horror story, saw every video...and then the Dept said congrats - you have to carry a Glock! So, I learned. The one single BIGGEST reason I saw for a Glock or any other striker fired pistol to negligently discharge in the holster was an obstruction in the trigger guard, nothing else. One was in a vehicle because a soft old leather rig got so "floppy" that part of the holster itself inserted into the trigger guard and fired the weapon while reholstering. The takeaway is clear - the fast one handed no-look reholstering taught in many classes are NOT what you need with striker fired pistol and any holster that might have caught part of your covering garment while reholstering. Even if carrying openly with no covering garment - look anyway. If you can't take your eyes off something long enough to look, you might need to keep that sidearm at the low ready, just in case. Also, open trigger guard rigs are NOT good for striker fired pistols. Bad juju as the old saying goes.
Here is my EDC, a CZ P-10C, (first gen with updated slide), in a High Noon Stingray OWB rig.
(https://i.imgur.com/DinFpwQ.jpg)
When unholstering, the standard training I received all these years of "booger hook off the bang switch until go time" keeps me from a premature ejection...but reholstering, I take my time and make sure any covering garment, (I don't carry openly unless in uniform), is clear before sliding the weapon in to the holster. Period. There is no other safe way to do this, no matter the sidearm - a P-01 could have the exact same thing happen if an object was in the way, and the carrier was paying zero attention. Admittedly, the person involved would have to be practically catatonic to NOT notice there was a problem before the sidearm discharged, but theoretically any firearm without a positive manual safety in the on position could have exactly this type of negligent discharge.
Now, doe this mean I think everyone should carry a striker fired pistol and that anyone who doesn't is somehow undertrained? hardly - I carried hammer fired for decades, and would do so again in a heartbeat. I just found my perfect fit with the P-10 series pistols, (to nobodys greater shock than me - even CZ-USA was surprised), and I take the time needed to be completely safe.
Yes, I do carry IWB occasionally, in a High Noon Close Encounter, (made for a P-09, actually fits the P-10C perfectly), and I follow the same drill - watch what I am doing and clear all covering garments away completely. I take longer getting my pants up in a public restroom, but I don't leave a smoking toilet behind. Unless it's Taco Bell, then all bets are off...
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Post by: Conlin2 on February 23, 2020, 09:13:43 AM
Post by: jurek on February 23, 2020, 11:00:56 AM
Post by: KnightSchneider on February 24, 2020, 08:38:45 PM
I use high quality holsters, high quality belts, and good quality guns properly maintained. I don't modify my carry guns beyond replacing sights.
I also am extremely aware of re-holstering; never a reason to be first back in the holster.
Post by: Porcupine on February 25, 2020, 08:31:23 AM
When I can dress with an untucked shirt, I'll carry a P 07. While I have, and really like a Rami, it's too big for pocket carry but not small enough to be significantly easier to conceal than the P 07.
Post by: Vinny on February 25, 2020, 10:56:11 AM
I prefer DA/SA but those choices in a 'pocket-carry' size are very slim indeed.
When I think of carry safety, I also have to think about why I'm carrying in the first place. Of course, I have to think of personal safety first, but if I can't place rounds quickly on moment of BG I might as well not carry it .
So I started some measured time/score comparisons of my 4 pocket pistols placing 5 rounds fast on an IDPA target at 20 feet from low-ready. Measuring IDPA style taking time + points down.
SIG P290rs - DAO trigger long firm pull and lonnnggg reset. Upgraded with X-Ray-3 sights that I like. Shoots accurately but slowest of the bunch due to awkward trigger.
S&W CS9 - Very reliable 3rd Gen DA/SA about as large as I can reasonably pocket carry in a Mika pocket holster. Not many sight upgrades available but I have installed a low-mount Novak FO front. Surprisingly quick and accurate but largest of the bunch.
SA Hellcat OSP - Striker-fired with the 'U' shape rear. Although gun has been 100% reliable through 1000 rounds, I'm not liking the 'U' notch rear sight at all and I'm dropping too many points outside the -0 circle. Probably it's just me.
SIG P365 - Striker-fired with the X-Ray-3 sights I like; and not only the fastest of the bunch, most accurate too. I'm able to routinely break 5 shots in under 2 seconds with 3-4 Alpha's, and 1-2 close one-down Charlie's. Not great, but it would probably get the job done in a pinch.
Of course, if I slow down I can put them all in a 2" circle, but I wanted to test the limits of each under time pressure.
I've been carrying the DAO SIG290rs thinking it was the 'safest' for pocket; but after timed test comparisons I've had to re-think carrying a striker.
I decided to ditch the SIG 290rs and Hellcat, and upgrade from soft pocket holsters to better hard-case Kydex pocket holsters with thumb-push release (Alabama and Vedder) for my SIG P365's (one of which will get an extra slide with a Romeo Zero milled. And keep the S&W CS-9 DA/SA as a good viable backup.
Similar to other's suggestions in this thread... If Striker works best for your purposes....upgrading holster and regular practice holstering (and re-holster) safely before placing both in my pocket.
Post by: Tanners Owner on February 25, 2020, 11:12:37 AM
That said, my sense is you are dead on right- at least for me. I had a P250, and was amazed at the smoothness of the trigger, but found I shot my revolvers faster, so it went. Suspect its similar to your 290.
Post by: Porcupine on February 25, 2020, 02:04:22 PM
This is an interesting thread; with many valid points of view and good ideas.
I prefer DA/SA but those choices in a 'pocket-carry' size are very slim indeed.
When I think of carry safety, I also have to think about why I'm carrying in the first place. Of course, I have to think of personal safety first, but if I can't place rounds quickly on moment of BG I might as well not carry it .
So I started some measured time/score comparisons of my 4 pocket pistols placing 5 rounds fast on an IDPA target at 20 feet from low-ready. Measuring IDPA style taking time + points down.
SIG P290rs - DAO trigger long firm pull and lonnnggg reset. Upgraded with X-Ray-3 sights that I like. Shoots accurately but slowest of the bunch due to awkward trigger.
S&W CS9 - Very reliable 3rd Gen DA/SA about as large as I can reasonably pocket carry in a Mika pocket holster. Not many sight upgrades available but I have installed a low-mount Novak FO front. Surprisingly quick and accurate but largest of the bunch.
SA Hellcat OSP - Striker-fired with the 'U' shape rear. Although gun has been 100% reliable through 1000 rounds, I'm not liking the 'U' notch rear sight at all and I'm dropping too many points outside the -0 circle. Probably it's just me.
SIG P365 - Striker-fired with the X-Ray-3 sights I like; and not only the fastest of the bunch, most accurate too. I'm able to routinely break 5 shots in under 2 seconds with 3-4 Alpha's, and 1-2 close one-down Charlie's. Not great, but it would probably get the job done in a pinch.
Of course, if I slow down I can put them all in a 2" circle, but I wanted to test the limits of each under time pressure.
I've been carrying the DAO SIG290rs thinking it was the 'safest' for pocket; but after timed test comparisons I've had to re-think carrying a striker.
I decided to ditch the SIG 290rs and Hellcat, and upgrade from soft pocket holsters to better hard-case Kydex pocket holsters with thumb-push release (Alabama and Vedder) for my SIG P365's (one of which will get an extra slide with a Romeo Zero milled. And keep the S&W CS-9 DA/SA as a good viable backup.
Similar to other's suggestions in this thread... If Striker works best for your purposes....upgrading holster and regular practice holstering (and re-holster) safely before placing both in my pocket.
FWIW-All 365s are set up to accept the safety. You can see the lines from the mold on the frame if you look closely.
The chassis is ready to have the 3 small parts dropped in.
Currently parts are scarce, but I plan to get them when they become more available.
Here is one potential source:
http://www.abprototype.com/sig-p365-manual-safety-lever-assembly/ (http://www.abprototype.com/sig-p365-manual-safety-lever-assembly/)
Post by: Vinny on February 25, 2020, 06:42:24 PM
Porcupine,
Similar to other's suggestions in this thread... If Striker works best for your purposes....upgrading holster and regular practice holstering (and re-holster) safely before placing both in my pocket.
FWIW-All 365s are set up to accept the safety. You can see the lines from the mold on the frame if you look closely.
The chassis is ready to have the 3 small parts dropped in.
Currently parts are scarce, but I plan to get them when they become more available.
Here is one potential source:
http://www.abprototype.com/sig-p365-manual-safety-lever-assembly/ (http://www.abprototype.com/sig-p365-manual-safety-lever-assembly/)
Yes, for some, adding a Manual Safety will be the answer.
Thanks for posting the link.
I had seen this on SIG-Talk. Both Alabama Holster, Vedder and others will make a Kydex pocket holster to accommodate the manual safety. I would certainly consider it IF I could flick OFF the safety after holstering like I do on my S&W CS9 with decocker/safety. But I don't think the safety is accessible in this type of holster?
And I just don't want the extra step of unlocking the safety upon draw on ANY of my SD pistols. But I understand those that do.
Anyhow, as you can see in images below the hard-shell Vedder 'Pocket Locker' completely covers the trigger guard and I Holster it before putting the holster with secured pistol into my pocket. Ditto after firing I remove the holster with support hand and safely re-holster before putting into my pocket again. YMMV
BTW...The thumb release works great and pistol draws quickly from retention leaving holster behind!
(https://i.imgur.com/HKJyR5Q.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/Vj1llfE.jpg?1)
Post by: Porcupine on February 25, 2020, 10:32:23 PM
I carry mine in a Nemisis, and follow the same practice of holstering outside my pocket.
I'm well conditioned to sweeping off a safety on drawing, as that is how I was trained as a young man.
I unconsciously sweep my striker and decocker guns if I'm not mindful to avoid it. Fortunately the decockers lower profile and longer stroke prevent accidentally decocking the weapon.
Post by: norcalAF on February 25, 2020, 11:26:39 PM
I'm old-school when I use a IWB holster for a small striker fired pistol I remove the holster, insert the pistol and then place the holster back in my waistband.Old-school? I would call that prudent.
Post by: norcalAF on February 25, 2020, 11:34:19 PM
Then they should look at Kahr's offeringsagree... but hypothetically.... "what if" someone had become familiar and comfortable with a heavier trigger pull because maybe they've carried a tuned up DAO snubbie revolver for a long time, but also likes the form factor of a Glock for ease of carry and shooting ergos. Just asking if it's technically/mechanically possible to increase the weight at which the Glock trigger breaks? or even increase the weight of the take-up to simulate a length of pull before the break?just curious if, in theory, you can work on a Glock trigger, or any striker, in order to increase the pull weight? What is so special about a 5 pound trigger pull? why not 8-9 pounds?I'm not sure if 5 is the magic number, but 4 - 5 pounds trigger pull makes all shots accurate (you don't need to fight with trigger, just pull and bum). 4 - 5 is still safe using proper holster and following all safety rules.
thx
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Post by: BStill on February 25, 2020, 11:50:13 PM
I had been considering a Kahr (CM9) if I could find one with regular 3 dot sights, until I shot (and liked) a friend's G43 and then found a good deal on a used one.Then they should look at Kahr's offeringsagree... but hypothetically.... "what if" someone had become familiar and comfortable with a heavier trigger pull because maybe they've carried a tuned up DAO snubbie revolver for a long time, but also likes the form factor of a Glock for ease of carry and shooting ergos. Just asking if it's technically/mechanically possible to increase the weight at which the Glock trigger breaks? or even increase the weight of the take-up to simulate a length of pull before the break?just curious if, in theory, you can work on a Glock trigger, or any striker, in order to increase the pull weight? What is so special about a 5 pound trigger pull? why not 8-9 pounds?I'm not sure if 5 is the magic number, but 4 - 5 pounds trigger pull makes all shots accurate (you don't need to fight with trigger, just pull and bum). 4 - 5 is still safe using proper holster and following all safety rules.
thx
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Post by: norcalAF on February 26, 2020, 01:48:35 AM
I have several Glocks, and have owned a few Kahr's, an old K9 that I regretfully traded away, a PM9 that had trouble feeding hollowpoints reliably, and currently a MK40, which I thoroughly enjoy. Honestly I traded a G43 for it. The Kahr trigger is the most similar to a DA revolver, complete with long reset, but it is smooth and breaks very nicely.I had been considering a Kahr (CM9) if I could find one with regular 3 dot sights, until I shot (and liked) a friend's G43 and then found a good deal on a used one.Then they should look at Kahr's offeringsagree... but hypothetically.... "what if" someone had become familiar and comfortable with a heavier trigger pull because maybe they've carried a tuned up DAO snubbie revolver for a long time, but also likes the form factor of a Glock for ease of carry and shooting ergos. Just asking if it's technically/mechanically possible to increase the weight at which the Glock trigger breaks? or even increase the weight of the take-up to simulate a length of pull before the break?just curious if, in theory, you can work on a Glock trigger, or any striker, in order to increase the pull weight? What is so special about a 5 pound trigger pull? why not 8-9 pounds?I'm not sure if 5 is the magic number, but 4 - 5 pounds trigger pull makes all shots accurate (you don't need to fight with trigger, just pull and bum). 4 - 5 is still safe using proper holster and following all safety rules.
thx
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Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk
At the end of the day, all that matters is carry what you are comfortable with and carry often.