The Original CZ Forum
CZ LONG ARMS => VZ-58 semi auto rifle => Topic started by: sboone on February 14, 2020, 05:33:22 PM
-
A guy local that I've done horse trading with in the past hit me up last night. He had a lightly used VZ 58 in the box, 12 mags, 1 pouch for $900. 1 CZ P01 UGSR and $350 dollars later Im takin the pile home. He gave full disclosure on the rifle, theres something up with the ejector and top handgaurd is loose, all furniture was replaced with a color matched beaver barf set by him to get rid of the plastic.
Ejector has a ton of play in and slides out of the groove half way, theres a dimple in the reciever where it looks like it was half heartedly dimpled to stake it in. He attempted to stake it but move material from the ejector itself. I think im just gonna find a NOS and replace it.
Anything I need to be aware of or is it as simple as it looks, just stake material from the dimple? I'm pretty mechanically inclined and have my other Dtech as a pattern to work off of that was staked properly.
(https://www.instagram.com/p/CKkhMVwr963/?igshid=h1fc8r54pen1)
-
Pick up a nee ejector and stake, its that easy. Ive done a bunch, and found a chisel to do a better staking job than a punch. I use a 1/4 masonry chisel and kinda follow the angle of the dimple, one good whack locks that up tight.
-
Thanks, thats a nice little tip to know for sure. I was really lookin at a 12" pistol to do a "lightweight" build with your handgaurds and a folding stock/brace. More than likely this one will get sent up the road and replaced with that in due time.
-
A guy local that I've done horse trading with in the past hit me up last night. He had a lightly used VZ 58 in the box, 12 mags, 1 pouch for $900. 1 CZ P01 UGSR and $350 dollars later Im takin the pile home. He gave full disclosure on the rifle, theres something up with the ejector and top handgaurd is loose, all furniture was replaced with a color matched beaver barf set by him to get rid of the plastic.
Ejector has a ton of play in and slides out of the groove half way, theres a dimple in the reciever where it looks like it was half heartedly dimpled to stake it in. He attempted to stake it but move material from the ejector itself. I think im just gonna find a NOS and replace it.
Anything I need to be aware of or is it as simple as it looks, just stake material from the dimple? I'm pretty mechanically inclined and have my other Dtech as a pattern to work off of that was staked properly.
Wow, 33% off and 50% off respectively. You did VERY well. Do look into 922r w/ those foreign handguards -- IIRC, Czechpoints black plastic handguards are US-made/922r components.
-
Pick up a nee ejector and stake, its that easy. Ive done a bunch, and found a chisel to do a better staking job than a punch. I use a 1/4 masonry chisel and kinda follow the angle of the dimple, one good whack locks that up tight.
Staking went well and simple as it looks, that chisel idea really did the trick. Also went ahead and ordered a handgaurd set for my other Dtech instead of waiting for cash for a pistol. I did the math and even with my vortex razor reflex on it, it'll still be lighter than rhe beaver handgard set.
-
Pick up a nee ejector and stake, its that easy. Ive done a bunch, and found a chisel to do a better staking job than a punch. I use a 1/4 masonry chisel and kinda follow the angle of the dimple, one good whack locks that up tight.
Staking went well and simple as it looks, that chisel idea really did the trick. Also went ahead and ordered a handgaurd set for my other Dtech instead of waiting for cash for a pistol. I did the math and even with my vortex razor reflex on it, it'll still be lighter than rhe beaver handgard set.
Talking about Obiwan/CNCW's new bonesteel handguards with the dual rail and mlock setup?
-
Pick up a nee ejector and stake, its that easy. Ive done a bunch, and found a chisel to do a better staking job than a punch. I use a 1/4 masonry chisel and kinda follow the angle of the dimple, one good whack locks that up tight.
Staking went well and simple as it looks, that chisel idea really did the trick. Also went ahead and ordered a handgaurd set for my other Dtech instead of waiting for cash for a pistol. I did the math and even with my vortex razor reflex on it, it'll still be lighter than rhe beaver handgard set.
Talking about Obiwan/CNCW's new bonesteel handguards with the dual rail and mlock setup?
If you mean these
https://www.bonesteelarms.com/VZ-58-SRS-Hand-Guard-Set-SRS-VZ-SET.htm
Then yes sir. Been slobberin over em for over a year
-
Good deal. Yes, they look to resolve my issue w/ his Gen 1s, which was they were oddly wide, and squat -- but haven't tried them. However, I would still like to see the top rail edges extend out to the outer edge of the lower rail. As is, stones, etc, can fall into the handguard via gaps between upper and lower. Granted, it's less of an issue now with the mlock cutouts allowing stuff to more easily fall out than gen 1, but it should also allow the upper to be made a little more rigid... As is though, not having it extend to inline probably does keep it from being impacted and damaged quite as much, and allow the upper to remain a little lighter in construction.
Regardless, what's been you impression with these? Good to go?
-
Good deal. Yes, they look to resolve my issue w/ his Gen 1s, which was they were oddly wide, and squat -- but haven't tried them. However, I would still like to see the top rail edges extend out to the outer edge of the lower rail. As is, stones, etc, can fall into the handguard via gaps between upper and lower. Granted, it's less of an issue now with the mlock cutouts allowing stuff to more easily fall out than gen 1, but it should also allow the upper to be made a little more rigid... As is though, not having it extend to inline probably does keep it from being impacted and damaged quite as much, and allow the upper to remain a little lighter in construction.
Regardless, what's been you impression with these? Good to go?
Just ordered it today, I'll give ya a first impression update and I'll run it at Kalashnicon summer 2020 and give another update after some abuse to it
-
I believe that much of this is irrelevant with the latest release, but below is my previous post on his Gen 1.
Also to run a gas pedal and afg w/ Bonesteel Gen 2, I'd probably add rail sections to at least bottom and possibly side before mounting them. And I'd probably use aluminum for bottom and polymer for side (polymer side reduces heat transfer, which isn't really an issue on bottom w/ afg).
Bottom, only the small rail will fit. And the small rail is sufficient to mount an AFG or other grip.
Support hand side, I like the long rail for heat deflection as well as a continuous surface for my hand being mounted against.
Opposite side, I have a small rail for flashlight mount or other accessory if needed. Better to have and not need, than not have and need...
Also, NEA does sit slightly higher than bonesteel. But it is a much more substantial rail in pretty much every respect. And its design is also such that it prevents things from falling into the handguard, unlike Bonesteel. Whether NEA is "overbuilt" or that extra bulk is critical is quite fairly up for discussion. But that's my primary takeaway.
Lowers Bonesteel is better ventilated and has much more rail space -- for NEA, more rails means less ventilation. Also, Bonesteel, you don't have to worry about rails working themselves loose.
But, for Bonesteel in hand, the lower is almost too wide. Wider than AR quad rails. And I haven't mounted it yet to try, but I also don't think the bonesteel will be friendly to the gogun gas pedal, which it and the AFG make a pretty much perfect forehand grip w/ my Troy/NEA, and do a very good job of minimizing heat on the support hand. Without the Gas pedal on bonesteel, support hand thumb ends up on top rail right next to where the pistol in exhausting the gas (point of greatest heat). Not ideal.
My Daniels Defense Omega rail: 1.9", 48.3mm.
Bonesteel: 2.15", 54.5mm.
In comparison my Midwest Industries Galil Quad Rail is 2.25"/57.3mm, but feels much narrower -- I think it has to be something to do with the wide rail sitting so low to the palm of the hand, but not certain...
**PAUSE**
So ran through these again. Bonesteel the meat of thumb ends up atop the side rail. NEA is about 2/3 on and 1/3 off the rail and the Midwest and Daniels both run palm entirely on the rail. That's the hangup with bonesteel. I can rotate my palm more under the barrel , but then I'm not using the same grip on the afg as I"m used too... Not sure if I'm describing correctly, but the meat of the thumb, portion of palm connected to thumb is what I'm describing...
Bottom line, bonesteel is high enough that my thumb sits atop the side rail and is the only quad rail I have where a c-clamp grip would be described as natural. It'd be hot, but natural... Without an AFG that grip would probably be worse...
Looks like I've gone and convinced myself to spend more $ on upgrading my 2nd tacticool VZ2008 to an NEA fore-end at some point...
So I've posted before about how low the Bonesteel side rail sits, so thought I'd post some pics today while I was snapping some pics.
Here's the Galil Midwest Industries top vs the Bonesteel bottom. As mentioned, my thumb rides the top of the bonesteel rail, making a C clamp grip natural -- but that doesn't work if you're running a co-witness red dot... Otherwise, your thumb right there puts it at hot central...
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8602/16000028503_671dbfdce2_z.jpg)
Bonesteel top vs NEA/Troy bottom (though perhaps not entirely obvious from the pic, the NEA has about 2x the distance between rails as the bonesteel):
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8568/16593814346_87a16fcf71_z.jpg)
*Worth mentioning that the bottom rail, I leave the front most hole open for increased ventilation there as well as most support for the AFG. And the long NEA side rail, allows some venting at the foremost side rail hole, and the sling swivel attachment hole offers add'l ventilation on the rear... To mount the gas pedal where I needed it, the sling swivel attachment hole would've been covered so I sent it to the rear... W/o the gas pedal, would probably help w/ ventilation/cooling to the front if you don't need to mount a sling...
And here's just the setup of the go gun gas pedal and AFG that I really like for the VZ58 -- this is the aluminum version that runs about $50 vs $15 polymer airsoft ones you can find. (Need to order some ODG rail covers...)
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8639/15997596664_bce5384eea_z.jpg)
In summary, the NEA handguard fits my hand similar to my AK/Galil and AR handguards where my thumb and the meat of my thumb rides the rail. Bonesteel has my thumb and most of the meat of my thumb riding the top of the side rail.
*Should mention that I'm looking to sell this Bonesteel rail and will separate w/ it at cost plus shipping. Didn't use Bonesteel's screw adhesive, just blue loctite, so all the adjustment screws should be easily removed and no modifications were made to the rails. Also have a black aluminum gas pedal I don't have an immediate need for that I'd sell for $50 delivered (installed but never left the house) if anyone is looking. Essentially same price as gogun but free shipping. PM me for either.
http://store.gogunusa.com/Gas-Pedal-for-Rifles_c5.htm
-
RSR and BonJovi
My handgaurds were delivered today. Out of the package I was a little concerned because there wasnt much material connecting the bottom and side rails and seemed to be some flex, after installation though everything is low profile and rock solid, front retainer adds the rigidity necessary for the lower IMO. As a system the whole thing is significantly lower profile that the OEM and plastic railed gaurds I had before. With my vortex razor reflex on the upper it revealed a little bit of side to side so I'll have to use one of the tension screws on the side but there is very little play. Its amazing how about a 7oz weight savinga will completely change a rifles handling, swings so fast. I will zero the razor and have a local 2 gun coming up that I will use as a test run before comitting to it before Kalashnicon
-
Thanks for the report -- I think the VZ58s handling is already superb, but what you're describing is similar to folks on ARs trying optimized/lightweight profile barrels like Ballistic Advantage's Hanson or Faxon's gunner profile for the first time after coming from M4/A2 profile barrels.
Also, I'm pretty sure that Bonesteel/CNCW state that set screws are required for repeatability of that upper rail mount. And IIRC, you're supposed to back them off slightly so that you can still remove it without having to adjust screws however.
-
Yes, theres set screws, 2 to space the front of the upper gaurd and 1 for the rear of the upper gaurd if needed. I probably didnt need to use a rear set screw but it doesnt hurt anything so I did anyway, truth be told the only reason I ever removed the upper in the first place was to show that it wasnt an AK. It is rock solid though. The railed lower I had before was pretty heavy, just a beefy chunk of plastic with some fairly thick rails screwed on, wasnt hard to upgrade from that
-
(https://i.imgur.com/All83EUl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/MUHdEEql.jpg)
Got all the important bits mounted up to this guy. I wasnt sure the slate mlok was gonna work due to screw length but it was guttentight and feels good. Decided that Id throw some love towards the 9hole review crew and see how the stop works since it keeps the light low profile im goin for.
On the port side i left the front section of rail open so I can mount my shotkam in a Primary Arms cantilever 30mm ring for video.
-
The railed lower I had before was pretty heavy, just a beefy chunk of plastic with some fairly thick rails screwed on, wasnt hard to upgrade from that
FAB?
-
(https://i.imgur.com/All83EUl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/MUHdEEql.jpg)
Got all the important bits mounted up to this guy. I wasnt sure the slate mlok was gonna work due to screw length but it was guttentight and feels good. Decided that Id throw some love towards the 9hole review crew and see how the stop works since it keeps the light low profile im goin for.
On the port side i left the front section of rail open so I can mount my shotkam in a Primary Arms cantilever 30mm ring for video.
How thick does it feel with the rail covers? It looks like Bonesteel kept it nice and low profile on the sides. I might want to try one
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
(https://imgur.com/mCrjKlxl)
Befor phot of the railed lower I was using before, dont know what it is, dont know where I acquired it from either lol. I had it and needed something with a rail at the time.
Mercs, the rail covers add no perceivable width that I could tell. I can grip all the way around the rail and touch thumb to fingers without issue with and without the covers. I got them because I anticipate needing the help with heat mitigation but will probably still wear gloves
Total weight on that handgaurd as currently setup is a little over 9oz.
Oem bakelite furniture was about 8oz with the upper handgaurd actually being about 5oz of that.
What I had before with rhe plasric railed lower and bake upper was around 1lb with nothin on it.
-
How thick does it feel with the rail covers? It looks like Bonesteel kept it nice and low profile on the sides. I might want to try one
Bonesteel rails are rather short, which for me means my thumb sits atop the side rail (or can C clamp). With thumb on side rail, it's right next to the gas block, which gets hot and discharges hot gases immediately where one's thumb is.
Discussed earlier in the thread, but I'd add rails to the bottom (believe bonesteel kit comes w/ some) and then put an AFG there, but you might need an aftermarket rail or rail riser depending upon how might height those included add and how they fit your hand (I have medium hands and large length fingers). I also add the GoGun gas pedal thumb rest as well, which is also pictured.
-
(https://imgur.com/a/sEHau7T)
Befor phot of the railed lower I was using before, dont know what it is, dont know where I acquired it from either lol. I had it and needed something with a rail at the time.
Your photo wasn't coming through on your post. You have to embed them, but right clicking and "copy image address." URL for this one is https://i.imgur.com/mCrjKlx.jpg, and then just add a lower-cased L to the end.
(https://i.imgur.com/mCrjKlxl.jpg)
That's actually a modern Czech poly rail. They're fairly expensive for what they are, and would recommend selling it if you don't want it.
A major benefit of bonesteel vs that is increased ventilation.
-
(https://imgur.com/a/sEHau7Tl)
Befor phot of the railed lower I was using before, dont know what it is, dont know where I acquired it from either lol. I had it and needed something with a rail at the time.
Mercs, the rail covers add no perceivable width that I could tell. I can grip all the way around the rail and touch thumb to fingers without issue with and without the covers. I got them because I anticipate needing the help with heat mitigation but will probably still wear gloves
Total weight on that handgaurd as currently setup is a little over 9oz.
Oem bakelite furniture was about 8oz with the upper handgaurd actually being about 5oz of that.
What I had before with rhe plasric railed lower and bake upper was around 1lb with nothin on it.
Thank you for the detailed reply. I like your setup, and I just may do the same for one of mine
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Dtech (Mike) is a good guy. I remember him from years ago back on the OA2.org (Olympic arms owners forum).
Think he's referring to Dtechnik.
-
How thick does it feel with the rail covers? It looks like Bonesteel kept it nice and low profile on the sides. I might want to try one
Bonesteel rails are rather short, which for me means my thumb sits atop the side rail (or can C clamp). With thumb on side rail, it's right next to the gas block, which gets hot and discharges hot gases immediately where one's thumb is.
Discussed earlier in the thread, but I'd add rails to the bottom (believe bonesteel kit comes w/ some) and then put an AFG there, but you might need a rail riser. I also add the GoGun gas pedal thumb rest as well, which is also pictured.
Thanks that is some good advice. I was planning to combine this handguard with a vertical forward grip also
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Bonesteel rails are rather short, which for me means my thumb sits atop the side rail (or can C clamp). With thumb on side rail, it's right next to the gas block, which gets hot and discharges hot gases immediately where one's thumb is.
Discussed earlier in the thread, but I'd add rails to the bottom (believe bonesteel kit comes w/ some) and then put an AFG there, but you might need an aftermarket rail or rail riser depending upon how might height those included add and how they fit your hand (I have medium hands and large length fingers). I also add the GoGun gas pedal thumb rest as well, which is also pictured.
Thanks that is some good advice. I was planning to combine this handguard with a vertical forward grip also
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Where are the czech handgaurds like that sold at? Ive got the upper too with no rail on it, dont remember where that set came from, just kinda had it.
I was lookin at that when I set this up, it looked like my thumb and front of hand will be out of the path of venting gasses with the way I intend to C clamp with thumb right in front of the red dot. But theres a local 2gun this week and it will be the vetting process for this setup before Kalashnikon.
-
VZ58rifle.com definitely sells them. I think Zahal did. Not recalling the manufacturer offhand.
-
Thanks, found em on their site. I may just package them with the other rifle to sell em.
Unfortunately the 2gun was cancelled and moved to next week because the range was a mudpit and they didn't want any incidents due to falling in the mud and they figured better attendance when it dries out a little. but they were still open today and weather doesn't stop me from shooting if I have time. Went out and probably used a couple hundred rounds doing drills and confirming zero. I gotta say it handles like a totally different gun, was shootinf bare hand and didn't have any heat issues although it was about 42°F out. Im impressed and had no issues whatsoever, just a metric ton of fun running the little beasty. Thumb over bore worked well with the red dot, but if you have a RMR or other that will co witness with irons then you're not gonna be able to do that, would need that gas pedal thing or other solution.
-
UPDATE:
We had Kalashnicon 2020 this past weekend and I ran the Dtech VZ58 with the bonesteel srs handgaurd set. The handgaurd set performed very well. The gun was shoved through port holes and braced up against barriers, grounded, heavy round count stages, long distance out to 400 yds.
The highest round count stage we called 5 card stud. 5 boxes numbered 1-5, the RO (me) has 10 cards in my hand, Ace (1) and 2-5, with 2 of each. I call a number and shooter runs to box and puts 5 rounds on the applicable target set at 25yds, total of 50 rounds to shoot it clean. It is a very fast paced stage. I used 2 whole mags because I dump an extra shot to ensure I dont get penalty for not having enough rounds on target. It wasnt especially hot, maybe 75-80F but dumping 2 mags that fast heated the gun up quick, barrel was hot, gas block was hot, handgaurds were not and I shoot it thumb over bore and dont wear gloves shooting, I was impressed between the slate industries mlok panels and handgaurds to dissapate heat as well as they did.
Barrier wise the slate stop performed very well and the handgaurds did not deform from being forcefully shoved into barriers, hitting the ground hard, and generally being abused.
Long distance the handgaurds did not seem to affect accuracy any as I was able to hit 4 moa targets out to 400 yds, we have the opportunity to make it to 600 but I did not shoot good enough for that and I am blaming the vortex razor reflex for that.
The Vortex Razor...
It has been giving me problems for about 3 weeks now. Windage drift real hard, thought I had it fixed and zeroed but as the event progressed I found myself holding farther and farther right. It shot loose 3-4 weeks ago, de grease, loctite, and torque back down, now the set screw seems to not want to lock in windage and elevation adjustment very well. I can say that the railed upper was not the issue as it is still solid as a rock and has not been removed since installation.
Overall Id give the handgaurds a solid 5/5
Good heat dissipation, does not have a negligible effect on accuracy, upper holds zero, very light, very utilitarian.
Only down side is the lower would need to be removed for accessories that slide onto 1913 rails but that's a non issue for me.
Razor had a 4/5 when it worked because it has a beefy 3 moa dot, would prefer a little smaller.
Right now its a 2/5 because something with rhe razor name shouldn't have a drifting dot when the mount is tight
May consider a better folding stock and steel trigger next from obibonjovi once funds recover
-
UPDATE:
Thanks for the report!
How'd you do in the competition?
To your optic -- have you tried either lockset or vibratite? The former handles heat well. Not sure of specs on the latter, but it's what ADM sends with all of their mounts (run just on ARs, thus far at least).
-
UPDATE:
Thanks for the report!
How'd you do in the competition?
To your optic -- have you tried either lockset or vibratite? The former handles heat well. Not sure of specs on the latter, but it's what ADM sends with all of their mounts (run just on ARs, thus far at least).
I can confirm vibratite handles heat very well, I use it on my shotguns barrel clamp and rifle handguard attachments for example - but similarly to red locktite, I have had to heat it up when it came time to remove
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
UPDATE:
Thanks for the report!
How'd you do in the competition?
To your optic -- have you tried either lockset or vibratite? The former handles heat well. Not sure of specs on the latter, but it's what ADM sends with all of their mounts (run just on ARs, thus far at least).
I didnt do too bad all things considering. Upper 25% and placed in a stage or 2, won some prizes. We had a couple pros there who were sponsored by IWI and they were a challenge to run against. I was also an RO as well as a competitor so I essentially ran every stage 6-7 times before actually shooting it 3 days in a row so I was pretty winded. It was alot of fun though and the spirit of the event since we started it 4 years ago hasnt changed. New and seasoned shooters, teenagers up to a few guys in their 70s-80s. A very inclusive event and we plan on keeping it that way.
The optic was still mounted up strong, used blue loctite 242 but it wouldn't have got hot enough to mess with it. The razor uses a set screw to tight down the windage and elevation and I think it is impacting the windage the wrong way. I noticed that elevation still has nice tactile clicks when adjusting and windage is very mushy and awkward, cannot tell hiw far youve adjusted. It's getting sent back and I'm sure Vortex will make it right.
Also incase anyone was wondering a round count, I went through over 200 rounds on friday and at least 150 rounds on Saturday between all matches, est. Almost 400 rounds on that gun with handgaurd and razor red dot in 2 days.
-
IWI -- they running trad Galils or Galic ACEs? Or something else?
Thanks again for the info.
-
UPDATE:
Thanks for the report!
How'd you do in the competition?
To your optic -- have you tried either lockset or vibratite? The former handles heat well. Not sure of specs on the latter, but it's what ADM sends with all of their mounts (run just on ARs, thus far at least).
I can confirm vibratite handles heat very well, I use it on my shotguns barrel clamp and rifle handguard attachments for example - but similarly to red locktite, I have had to heat it up when it came time to remove
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Good to know! First I came across it actually was when ADM sent it... Typically use blue or purple loctite, and then rocksett only at hot locations since many places on weapons get hot enough for red locktite to fail.
-
IWI -- they running trad Galils or Galic ACEs? Or something else?
Thanks again for the info.
556 aces were what they gave their shooters
Had a couple guys with 762x39 and 308 aces as personal guns running em