The Original CZ Forum

CZ LONG ARMS => VZ-58 semi auto rifle => Topic started by: Radom on April 09, 2008, 10:56:59 AM

Title: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: Radom on April 09, 2008, 10:56:59 AM
I was a little concerned that I did not know for certain which parts on my vz-58 were made in the U.S. for the purposes of 18 USC 922(r) compliance.  I got a hold of Mike Eagleshield, and here is our e-mail exchange:

  It looks like the 5 U.S. made parts are:
 
  1.Magazine follower (polymer)
 
  2.Magazine base (polymer)
 
  3.Trigger (polymer)
 
  4.Sear (steel)
 
  5.Disconnector (steel).
 
  You were correct in that the two magazine parts were in order to make it comply   with 922R and be importable.
 
  Also in order to comply with 922R it must contain no more than 10 imported parts   and they are:
 
  1.Receiver
 
  2.Barrel
 
  3.Barrel extension
 
  4.Bolt
 
  5.Bolt carrier
 
  6.Gas piston
 
  7.Buttstock (fixed or folding)
 
  8.Pistol grip
 
  9.Handguard (both peices considered one)
 
  10.Magazine body
 
Quote
    -----Original Message-----    
    From:  DELETED    
    Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 1:10 PM    
    To: DELETED    
    Subject: vz-58 Tactical Sporter, 18 USC 922(r) Compliance    
   
 
   
    Dear Mr. Eagleshield:  
   
       
   
    We spoke earlier today on the telephone.  I am writing to inquire as to which parts on the vz-58 Tactical Sporter, as imported by CZ-USA, are made in the     United States in order to comply with 18 U.S.C. 922(r).  As you may recall, my concern was that the magazine floorplate and magazine follower were two of     the necessary five on this model.    
   
       
   
    Thank you for your assistance in this matter.  
   
       
   
    Sincerely,    
    DELETED    
 
Title: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: Radom on April 14, 2008, 02:22:37 PM
Okay, I've been doing some research, and here are the potential issues with the CZ-USA imports.

On the Tactical Sporter and Military Sporter models, there is only one OEM magazine. It uses two 922(r) compliance parts (follower and floorplate). This means that using a military surplus magazine with one of the CZ-USA imports is a violation of 18 U.S.C. 922(r).

On the Military model, three of the foreign parts are the buttstock, pistol grip, and the handguards. In other words, four parts count as three. OTOH, the Tactical Sporter poses a problem. Here, three parts count as three parts. That is, the tactical stock counts as a buttstock and a pistol grip, and the handguards as one, for a total of three. On the bright side, if you were to buy a folding stock kit, it can't hurt you, because you are substituting a Czech part for a Czech part.

Back to the real issue. If you want to use military surplus magazines here are your options. Remember, you must replace two parts on either version.

The most practical solution is probably a US made gas piston and a US made pistol grip. Obviously, this idea works a lot better on the Military Sporter model, because a pistol grip can be changed without changing the buttstock. For the Tactical Sporter, the most practical solution seems to be a US made gas piston and US made magazine floorplates (install these in the military surplus magazines).

The muzzle attachment/barrel extension is a real problem for a CZ-USA import. The vz-58 has to have some sort of fixed barrel extension, or it is a short-barrelled rifle and a NFA violation. When you build a vz-58 from a kit, it is pretty easy to get a US made muzzle attachment, and weld it to the barrel. This is not a violation, because you do this before pinning the barrel to the receiver. In order to legally go this route with a CZ-USA import, you have to have someone with a manufacturing license do the work. Alternatively, you may be able to remove the barrel from the receiver and change the barrel extensions. I am not sure on the legality of the latter option, however.

By the way, the US made floorplates are nice, but the US made followers are pretty substandard. They don't even have a ridge or clip to secure the mag spring. I would avoid the followers for two reasons: 1) poor quality; and 2) $6 each.

I almost forgot. US made wooden stock sets are also available. These count as three compliance parts.

Source for U.S manufactured vz-58 gas piston:
http://www.gunco.net/forums/f259/usa-made-vz58-pistons-37547 (http://www.gunco.net/forums/f259/usa-made-vz58-pistons-37547)


Source for US manufactured pistol grip:
http://www.lichtenbergresearch.com/parts/vz58pistolgrip/vz58pistolgrip.html (http://www.lichtenbergresearch.com/parts/vz58pistolgrip/vz58pistolgrip.html)


Source for U.S. manufactured floorplates and followers:
http://www.tnguns.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=42&sort=20a&page=2 (http://www.tnguns.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=42&sort=20a&page=2)


Source for U.S. manufacured wooden stock sets:
http://www.prexis.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=P&Category_Code=VZ58 (http://www.prexis.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=P&Category_Code=VZ58)
Title: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: armoredman on April 14, 2008, 05:23:25 PM
Thank you very much for that info! Now the question is, are the CZ offered spare magazines 922 compliant?
Title: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: Radom on April 15, 2008, 08:46:50 AM
Quote from: armoredman
Thank you very much for that info! Now the question is, are the CZ offered spare magazines 922 compliant?
 

Yes.  They are remanufactured (correct term?) for them by Tennessee Guns International, who are affiliated with the company assembling the rifles in Knoxville.  Basically, they refinish a military magazine body and base tab in black enamel and put the two black plastic US manufactured parts (follower and floorplate) on the mag body.  The spring on the OEM magazine that came with my rifle even had cosmoline all over it, just like the mil surp from Centerfire Systems.

Bottom line:  Budget for a little additional expense on these to convert some mil surp magazines yourself or switch out some furniture.  No big deal, but I though our members needed to know.
Title: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: armoredman on April 15, 2008, 12:04:38 PM
Excellent, thank you for the effort!
Title: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: Radom on April 15, 2008, 12:24:47 PM
Thanks; you are too kind. (http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif)

At any rate, I myself am going with the first option I mentioned: US made gas piston and magazine floorplates. This would still make the relative cost of the magazines pretty reasonable: about $16-$18 each instead of $40. The piston is $23 delivered. (I wish I had figured all of this out before I stripped the cosmoline off of ALL the mil surp mags I ordered, since some are going into longterm storage now.)

For people who want a folder, the US pistol grip and piston would only run you about $60, and that would be a one-time expenditure.
Title: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: quikdraw67 on June 05, 2008, 06:13:01 PM
FEG -

thanks for the heads up, I'll go the mag floorplate and follower route, I think.

Anyone got a good source of milsurp VZ58 mags??
Title: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: Radom on June 05, 2008, 06:59:45 PM
Quote from: quikdraw67
FEG -  
 
  thanks for the heads up, I'll go the mag floorplate and follower route, I think.  
 
  Anyone got a good source of milsurp VZ58 mags??
 

http://www.centerfiresystems.com/vz58.aspx (http://www.centerfiresystems.com/vz58.aspx)

These were like new.  One of them was a little beat up, and they replaced it free of charge.

http://www.akparts.com/index.htm?c64.htm&1 (http://www.akparts.com/index.htm?c64.htm&1)

AK Parts.com had the same deal at $10 per magazine.  They sold out in less than a month.

We should probably get cracking!  I have nine magazines, and I would like to get 3-7 more if they are already drying up.
Title: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: JJB70 on June 05, 2008, 07:21:45 PM
FEG has the right idea, quikdraw.  I too should get a few more mags.

A long while back I saw something else at a really good price at AKparts and I made the mistake of telling myself "I'll order them over the weekend."  It seems to be a good idea to jump on these things when you find them.  I've used Centerfire for mags and kit.


Title: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: Radom on June 05, 2008, 07:24:45 PM
Quote from: JJB70
FEG has the right idea, quikdraw. I too should get a few more mags.  
 
  A long while back I saw something else at a really good price at AKparts and I made the mistake of telling myself "I'll order them over the   weekend." It seems to be a good idea to jump on these things when you find them. I've used Centerfire for mags and kit.  
 

+1.  The kit was also in great shape, but I admit I haven't spent the time to count the parts, etc.


EDIT: The Centerfire kit also comes with one mil surp mag.
Title: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: quikdraw67 on June 06, 2008, 06:06:02 PM
Thanks guys, haven't dealt with Centerfire Systems in a while, but never had any prob with them.

I'm going to order online tomorrow AM, the mag & pouch kit...not on a secure computer

JJB70 - been there done that...don't wait, get it now!

FEG - thanks again for all the help....you too JJB70
Title: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: Radom on June 09, 2008, 06:38:24 PM
Quote from: quikdraw67
Thanks guys, haven't dealt with Centerfire Systems in a while, but never had any prob with them.  
 
  I'm going to order online tomorrow AM, the mag & pouch kit...not on a secure computer  
 
  JJB70 - been there done that...don't wait, get it now!  
 
  FEG - thanks again for all the help....you too JJB70
 

No problem.  Please give me your honest opinion on the mags you receive.  If the quality is going downhill, it's time to PANIC!

Title: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: JJB70 on June 17, 2008, 06:15:20 PM
Magazine floorplates:  I e-mailed Lichtenberg Research and they tell me they aren't going to do any more.  Oh well.  So it looks like TGI is the way to go for now.
Title: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: Radom on June 18, 2008, 11:13:14 AM
Quote from: JJB70
Magazine floorplates: I e-mailed Lichtenberg Research and they tell me they aren't going to do any more. Oh well. So it looks like TGI is the way to go   for now.
 

The TGI floorplates do fit and look "right," so it could be a lot worse.  

Title: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: quikdraw67 on June 18, 2008, 05:39:22 PM
Got my Vz58 mags + other stuff from Centerfire Systems...very happy, all looks good, got a bayonet that I didn't know came with the mags..plus they threw in a HK G3 cleaning kit for free..


Just ordered the followers and mags from TGI today...this is the 1st semi rifle I own where I had to do this to keep in 922(r) compliance..kinda a PITA, but better than no Vz58 at all!
Title: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: quikdraw67 on June 26, 2008, 04:03:07 PM
got my mag bases and followers...now, I just need one more thing...

TIME TO SHOOT THE DARN THING!!!

IF the planets align I will get a 3-day weekend on the 4th, and I hope to make some noise of my own....
Title: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: JJB70 on June 26, 2008, 05:24:58 PM
Quote from: quikdraw67
got my mag bases and followers...now, I just need one more thing...  
 
  TIME TO SHOOT THE DARN THING!!!  
 
  IF the planets align I will get a 3-day weekend on the 4th, and I hope to make some noise of my own....
 


 

Quikdraw, the suspense is killing me!(http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/smile.gif)

Title: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: quikdraw67 on June 26, 2008, 07:08:31 PM
Quote from: JJB70
Quote from: quikdraw67
got my mag bases and followers...now, I just need one more thing...    
   
    TIME TO SHOOT THE DARN THING!!!    
   
    IF the planets align I will get a 3-day weekend on the 4th, and I hope to make some noise of my own....
   


   

Quikdraw, the suspense is killing me!(http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/smile.gif)  

 

killing YOU(http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/eek.gif)??

Work is the curse of the Sportsman(http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/pimp.gif)
Title: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: Radom on June 27, 2008, 08:35:55 AM
Funny, I thought chiggers or deer ticks were the curse of the Sportsman!

(http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif)
Title: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: armoredman on June 27, 2008, 09:31:40 PM
I still want one....
Title: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: crazy horse on June 30, 2008, 02:11:44 AM
I ordered 3 kits from centerfire last week they came in a timely fashion and the mags looked great. The pouches on the other hand were beat. Just ordered up my "compliance" mag parts from TGI as well.
I cannot wait to get these rifles.
Title: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: crazy horse on June 30, 2008, 02:51:53 AM
Quote from: FEG
I was a little concerned that I did not know for certain which parts on my vz-58 were made in the U.S. for the purposes of 18 USC 922(r) compliance. I got a   hold of Mike Eagleshield, and here is our e-mail exchange:  
 
 
    It looks like the 5 U.S. made parts are:  
   
    1.Magazine follower (polymer)  
   
    2.Magazine base (polymer)  
   
    3.Trigger (polymer)  
   
    4.Sear (steel)  
   
    5.Disconnector (steel).  
   
    You were correct in that the two magazine parts were in order to make it     comply with 922R and be importable.  
   
    Also in order to comply with 922R it must contain no more than 10 imported     parts and they are:  
   
    1.Receiver  
   
    2.Barrel  
   
    3.Barrel extension  
   
    4.Bolt  
   
    5.Bolt carrier  
   
    6.Gas piston  
   
    7.Buttstock (fixed or folding)  
   
    8.Pistol grip  
   
    9.Handguard (both peices considered one)  
   
    10.Magazine body  
   
Quote
      -----Original Message-----      
      From: DELETED      
      Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 1:10 PM      
      To: DELETED      
      Subject: vz-58 Tactical Sporter, 18 USC 922(r) Compliance      
     
   
     
      Dear Mr. Eagleshield:    
     
      We spoke earlier today on the telephone. I am writing to inquire as to which parts on the vz-58 Tactical Sporter, as imported by CZ-USA, are made in the       United States in order to comply with 18 U.S.C. 922(r). As you may recall, my concern was that the magazine floorplate and magazine follower were two of       the necessary five on this model.    
     
      Thank you for your assistance in this matter.    
     
      Sincerely,      
      DELETED      
     
     
     
   
 

Sir, You have done some very valuable research on the VZ58 thank you very much.
I have a few questions for you guys.
1. are the plastic mag followers reliable?
2. What are the chances that we will see a parts/mags shortage in the near future?
3.What ammo does your VZ like the best. I bought 2000 rnds of wolf HP ammo (hope it feeds HP's)
4. I have read somewhere that the VZ58 was designed to fire steel cased ammo. True/False?
Thanks
Crazy Horse

Title: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: Radom on June 30, 2008, 06:47:45 AM
Quote from: crazy horse
Quote from: FEG
I was a little concerned that I did not know for certain which parts on my vz-58 were made in the U.S. for the purposes of 18 USC 922(r) compliance. I got     a hold of Mike Eagleshield, and here is our e-mail exchange:    
   
   
      It looks like the 5 U.S. made parts are:    
     
      1.Magazine follower (polymer)    
     
      2.Magazine base (polymer)    
     
      3.Trigger (polymer)    
     
      4.Sear (steel)    
     
      5.Disconnector (steel).    
     
      You were correct in that the two magazine parts were in order to make it       comply with 922R and be importable.    
     
      Also in order to comply with 922R it must contain no more than 10 imported       parts and they are:    
     
      1.Receiver    
     
      2.Barrel    
     
      3.Barrel extension    
     
      4.Bolt    
     
      5.Bolt carrier    
     
      6.Gas piston    
     
      7.Buttstock (fixed or folding)    
     
      8.Pistol grip    
     
      9.Handguard (both peices considered one)    
     
      10.Magazine body    
     
Quote
        -----Original Message-----        
        From: DELETED        
        Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 1:10 PM        
        To: DELETED        
        Subject: vz-58 Tactical Sporter, 18 USC 922(r) Compliance        
       
     
       
        Dear Mr. Eagleshield:      
       
        We spoke earlier today on the telephone. I am writing to inquire as to which parts on the vz-58 Tactical Sporter, as imported by CZ-USA, are made in         the United States in order to comply with 18 U.S.C. 922(r). As you may recall, my concern was that the magazine floorplate and magazine follower were         two of the necessary five on this model.      
       
        Thank you for your assistance in this matter.      
       
        Sincerely,        
        DELETED        
       
       
       
     
   

Sir, You have done some very valuable research on the VZ58 thank you very much.  
  I have a few questions for you guys.  
  1. are the plastic mag followers reliable?  
  2. What are the chances that we will see a parts/mags shortage in the near future?  
  3.What ammo does your VZ like the best. I bought 2000 rnds of wolf HP ammo (hope it feeds HP's)  
  4. I have read somewhere that the VZ58 was designed to fire steel cased ammo. True/False?  
  Thanks  
  Crazy Horse

 

1.  From what I can tell, the U.S. manufactured followers are reliable enough.  They do not have a clip or retaining ridge for the magazine spring like a mil surp follower.  In theory, this would make them marginally less reliable.  (That said, I own tons of magazines for other guns that do not have this feature, either.)  I recommended the replacement piston more for reasons of cost.

2.  At present there are only X mil surp magazines in the U.S.   I have no idea how large or small the number X really is.  It is pretty clear to me that some people started hoarding these about 3 months ago.  The retailers selling them in the $10-$15 range seem to be running low.  I have ten (10), and I wish I had at least six (6) more.  If demand becomes high enough, you may see aftermarket magazines at some point.  An adaptor to allow the double-stack rifles to use the ten (10) round single-stack magazines would be awesome.  The U.S. manufactured single-stack magazines are really cheap.

3.  Barnaul 123 gr FMJ.  (I will post more in a second post, below.)  The CZ-USA rifles, or any rifle built on a Czech receiver, will feed the Russian commercial HPs.  (Note: some of the rifles that are home built on the U.S. manufactured Ohio Rapid Fire receivers do not, as many of the ORF receivers lack the integral ramp.)

4.  The vz-58 is definitely designed to fire steel-cased ammunition.  However, the armed forces of the former CSSR (and now the Czech and Slovak Republics) also tended to use a lot of brass-cased ammunition.  For example, I have purchased Sellier & Bellot 7.62x39 with both brass and steel cases.  The brass was mil surp, and the steel was commercial production!  Go figure...


More on ammunition to come...

Title: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: Radom on June 30, 2008, 07:14:23 AM
Thus far, I have not had the opportunity to test any brass-cased ammunition. I used to reload 7.62x39, but I ended up selling my stuff to armoredman. (Long story...)

Steel-cased accuracy has been roughly as follows:

1. Barnaul 123 gr FMJ (Old and new packaging)
2. Barnaul 123 gr HP (Old and new packaging)
3. Sellier & Bellot 123 gr FMJ (Green packaging, circa 2000)
4. Golden Tiger 123 gr FMJ
5. Barnaul 123 gr SP (New packaging only)
6. Wolf 154 gr SP (Tula production, black label, circa 2003)
7. Wolf 123 gr FMJ (Tula production, black label, circa 2003)
8. Brown Bear 123 gr FMJ (Novosibirsk production, circa 2004)
9. Silver Bear 123 gr HP (Ulyanovsk production, circa 2003)
10. Wolf Military Classic 123 gr FMJ (Ulyanovsk production)

You have to realize that in some cases, I only have only tested five boxes (100 cartridges), as it was all I had. In general, the brands that tended to be the most accurate in my SKSs and AKs have been the most accurate in the vz-58. There is one exception: usually S&B does the very best, and I was surprised that the Czech ammuniton didn't come in first with a Czech rifle.

The following is from an old post of mine on Russian 7.62x39. Unfortunately, it does not cover S&B, Romanian, or Balkan loadings, but I thought it would bear repeating...


I have learned the hard way that you can't go by "brand" name on the Russian ammunition; you have to go by the "real" manufacturer. A lot of Russian ammunition is actually subcontracted by some of the lesser known arsenals.

Manufacturer Information = http://www.ak-47.us/AK47_Factories.php#yu (http://www.ak-47.us/AK47_Factories.php#yu)

The best of the Russian is JSC Barnaul. This is marketed as Barnaul (!), Brown Bear, and Silver Bear. Not all Brown Bear and Silver Bear is made by Barnaul, however. The "Bears" were a consortium to streamline importation and marketing of several different arsenals. On the bright side, all ammunition branded as Barnaul seems to be made by JSC Barnaul. You can tell by the "JSC" headstamp. Barnaul is in Eastern Siberia. Personally, I try to stick to Barnaul and Sellier & Bellot.

The next best manufacturer is probably Novosibirsk/LVE. You used to be able to buy true mil surp marked "LVE" on the brown paper wrapper ("low voltage electrical" manufacturer). Novosibirsk makes the majority (but not all) Brown Bear. Some Brown Bear is also manufactured by Klimovsk, Ulyanovsk, and JSC Barnaul. Novosibirsk/LVE also makes some Silver Bear. In past years, Novosibirsk did import some ammuniton in a very basic commercial packaging, usually marked conspicuously with "LVE." Novosibirsk is in SW Siberia.

Vympel makes all Golden Tiger, and all Vympel is GT to my knowledge. This was a new facility (1976) set up to make 5.45x39 and other industrial and chemical products. This is really good mil spec ammunition. I would rank it higher, but it hasn't been around the U.S. that long. Vympel is the only major arsenal in the former Soviet Far East.

Tula Cartridge Works makes the majority of the Wolf branded ammuniton. At one time, TCW made all of it. The best Tula is just as good as, perhaps even better than, Novosibirsk. Unfortunately, there has been a lot more TCW ammunition imported than anything else, so the quality has varied over time. Tula is in European Russia.

Ulyanovsk is the absolute bottom of the barrel. The original Ulyanovsk loads to be imported came in blue and white packaging. I suspect this was old mil surp ammo repackaged as commercial, because it really, really sucked. These loads were horribly inconsistent, and I suspect some of the ammo had been stored for a lonnnnggggg time. Ulyanovsk is also a subcontractor for the Brown Bear line and the Wolf Military Classic line. Ulyanovsk is also in European Russia.

There are some other minor players like Klimovsk, but I can't pretend to have shot enough of their ammunition to have a legitimate basis for an opinion.
Title: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: crazy horse on July 01, 2008, 01:46:54 AM

Great info sir. Thank you so much.

Title: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: quikdraw67 on July 03, 2008, 05:41:44 PM



 FEG is a great help of CZ info........as he said, you're "One of Us"
Title: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: quikdraw67 on July 03, 2008, 05:46:22 PM
Quote from: JJB70
Quote from: quikdraw67
got my mag bases and followers...now, I just need one more thing...    
   
    TIME TO SHOOT THE DARN THING!!!    
   
    IF the planets align I will get a 3-day weekend on the 4th, and I hope to make some noise of my own....
   


   

Quikdraw, the suspense is killing me!(http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/smile.gif)  

 

Killing YOU...guess who gets to work a 1/2 day Saturday 07-05-08...plus the forecast for the weekend here in NE PA is showers/downpours(http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/mad.gif)

I am NOT a happy camper
Title: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: JJB70 on July 08, 2008, 01:57:49 PM
Qwikdraw:  Did the weather hold up for you or was it crummy out there?

FEG:  Nice list on the ammo.  I shot most of those through my VZ and encountered no difficulties.  I have not used the "non-Bear" Barnaul, the 154gr Wolf, nor the Sellier & Bellot.  I have pretty much found the Wolf, Silver/Brown Bear/Golden Tiger to be fairly similar in results (in FMJ, SP, HP)--much as you show in your list.

I have a question for you (or for anyone else for that matter).  I have seen a Chinese (Taiwan I assume) manufactured ammo brand for sale at a local gun store.  Unfortunately I can't remember the name of on the box, but I haven't tried it because it is twice as expensive as Wolf, Brown Bear, Golden Tiger, etc.  Have you tried any or have you heard anything?  I can't imagine it is worth double the cost, but I am curious if you know anything.
Title: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: Radom on July 08, 2008, 02:49:03 PM
Quote from: JJB70
Qwikdraw: Did the weather hold up for you or was it crummy out there?  
 
  FEG: Nice list on the ammo. I shot most of those through my VZ and encountered no difficulties. I have not used the "non-Bear" Barnaul, the 154gr   Wolf, nor the Sellier & Bellot. I have pretty much found the Wolf, Silver/Brown Bear/Golden Tiger to be fairly similar in results (in FMJ, SP, HP)--much   as you show in your list.  
 
  I have a question for you (or for anyone else for that matter). I have seen a Chinese (Taiwan I assume) manufactured ammo brand for sale at a local gun   store. Unfortunately I can't remember the name of on the box, but I haven't tried it because it is twice as expensive as Wolf, Brown Bear, Golden   Tiger, etc. Have you tried any or have you heard anything? I can't imagine it is worth double the cost, but I am curious if you know anything.
 

Norinco came in silver, yellow, and red boxes.  There also used to be a brand called something like "Asian Sporting Industries."  (It had initials on green packaging.)  There is also Chinese ammo marketed as "China Sports," but most of those loads also have the Norinco star logo.   I'm sure I missed a bunch, but those are the Chinese "brands" I remember from the 1990s.
Title: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: quikdraw67 on July 08, 2008, 04:25:55 PM
JJB70 - Weather and work schedule did not let me get to the range...I took this Friday off (7-11), so the weather looks good...I plan to shoot the VZ58 as well as the CZ75 P01...

I'll let you know how I made out
Title: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: JJB70 on July 11, 2008, 06:35:46 PM
Here is a bizarre one.

I got home today and found a box from Tenn Guns.  The problem is I haven't ordered anything since April--that saga is in one of the other threads.  Anyhow, I opened it and discovered they sent me a set of polymer vz.58 handguards.

Of course I am going to thank TGI and return the handguards.  You didn't think I was going to keep them....  Did you?
Title: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: Radom on July 13, 2008, 01:44:20 PM
Quote from: JJB70
Here is a bizarre one.  
 
  I got home today and found a box from Tenn Guns. The problem is I haven't ordered anything since April--that saga is in one of the other threads. Anyhow,   I opened it and discovered they sent me a set of polymer vz.58 handguards.  
 
  Of course I am going to thank TGI and return the handguards. You didn't think I was going to keep them.... Did you?
 

TGI:  Don't make a good boy go bad....

(http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/roll.gif)

Title: Re: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: FEG on January 20, 2009, 05:55:40 PM
Bump in order to "stick."
Title: Re: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: dusty10 on July 04, 2009, 09:26:58 PM
I purchased my military sporter from Czechpoint-USA and never gave 922r compliance much thought because they had already figured the parts count thing out.  Having long arms, I decided the military stock was too short for me so I ordered a tactical sporter polymer stock and replaced the wood impregnated plastic military sporter.  I then decided I might like to install a good red dot or halo scope someday and installed  Fab defense upper and lower hand guards.  Reading the guidelines, I think I am still in compliance with 922r regs. 

The one thing that concerns me is none of the American made parts are stamped "made in the USA".  Does anyone else think that might be a problem?
Title: Re: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: armoredman on July 06, 2009, 03:34:12 AM
I honestly don't know, the rules don't state they have to be stamped, IIRC. Follow the rules and keep recipets, as the manufacturers will have that info on hand if need be.
Title: Re: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: dusty10 on July 08, 2009, 10:33:49 PM
I wonder if I made a real wooden stock set for my VZ-58 if that would qualify as made in USA and help in the whole 922r parts count thing?  ???
Title: Re: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: CzechPoint on July 10, 2009, 06:35:55 PM
Just to confirm, the US made parts on our D-Technik rifles are: 

- sear
- disconnector
- trigger
- follower
- floor plate

There is no law that states the parts must be marked US made for 922(r) compliance.  The sear and disconnector are small and it would not be easy to mark these parts USA.  The trigger, follower, and floor plate are polymer so it is obvious they are after-market parts.  No one makes these parts except for our contractor using D-Technik molds. 

The vz.58 High Cap Sporter can legally use four US made parts as the thumbhole stock counts for one part only.  But, we still add five parts as we've found some customers like to add the Czechoslovakian made stock sets to their rifles. And yes, if a person makes their own wood furniture in the USA, it is can be counted as US made parts. 

We are hoping to sell US made stock sets for the vz.58 by the end of August.  Not only will they have the look of the very early vz.58, but it'll give three additional US made parts so the original floor plate and follower can be used.

Dan

Title: Re: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: dusty10 on July 10, 2009, 07:21:12 PM
Good to hear you'll be offering USA made real wood stocks soon.  I am definitely interested in that.  Regards, Dusty
Title: Re: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: armoredman on July 21, 2009, 04:05:04 AM
Would love to see that!
Title: Re: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: osageorange on April 03, 2010, 11:26:34 PM
Ironwood designs will soon be coming out with VZ58 furniture sets. They just moved to a new facility, so it will take awhile before they are offered on the website. Watch for them in a month or two. Meanwhile, they make great AK furniture for that other project you have going...

http://ironwooddesigns.com/IWDsite/IWDHome.html (http://ironwooddesigns.com/IWDsite/IWDHome.html)

ATTENTION:

All Ironwood Designs stock parts are 100% US made, and will count for 922r parts count.
Title: Re: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: PLANofMAN on April 16, 2015, 08:42:29 PM
http://www.ironwooddesigns.com/VZ58_Czech.html

Here's the link for the stock sets.
Title: Re: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: S11033 on September 22, 2018, 05:36:16 PM
I'm new to this forum and am having some trouble with the search function. Can anyone point me to information like this but for the VZ2008? I'd like to not have to worry about my magazines for compliance, but don't know what parts are US made.

Thanks!

S11
Title: Re: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: TJNewton on September 25, 2018, 05:56:01 PM
I'm new to this forum and am having some trouble with the search function. Can anyone point me to information like this but for the VZ2008? I'd like to not have to worry about my magazines for compliance, but don't know what parts are US made.

Thanks!

S11

The search function, as you've noticed, doesn't work for this site.  Go to Google and type in:  site:www.czfirearms.us VZ2008 922r

That "site:....." works for any website.

From memory, but please verify this on your own, the VZ2008 US-made parts are:

- Muzzle device
- Barrel
- Receiver
- Gas piston
- Sear
- Disconnector

When checking the 922r status of a VZ2008, some lists do not include a hammer as a foreign-made part as the VZ58 rifle has a striker instead.  However, many VZ58 descriptions and diagrams list the striker as a "linear hammer", possibly making it a gray area.  This could affect 922r compliance when counting backwards:  16, vs 15, countable parts.  I haven't found anything definitive on this subject.

One of the first upgrades a VZ2008 should get after tabbing the carrier is a Czechoslovakian surplus chromed gas piston.  I've done it on mine, although one still has the Century carbon steel US-made part and it's been fine.  I've used Ronin grips to offset that 922r gray area.

To maintain 922r compliance, there are aftermarket, US-made options:  Ronin pistol grips, various hand guards, rifle stocks, as well as CNC Warrior and Bonesteel Arms having a selection of parts.  Keep in mind that a majority of VZ58 aftermarket parts are made new in the Czech Republic or Israel and won't satisfy 922r requirements.
Title: Re: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: RSR on September 26, 2018, 10:53:20 PM
The search function, as you've noticed, doesn't work for this site.  Go to Google and type in:  site:www.czfirearms.us VZ2008 922r

That "site:....." works for any website.

From memory, but please verify this on your own, the VZ2008 US-made parts are:

- Muzzle device
- Barrel
- Receiver
- Gas piston
- Sear
- Disconnector

When checking the 922r status of a VZ2008, some lists do not include a hammer as a foreign-made part as the VZ58 rifle has a striker instead.  However, many VZ58 descriptions and diagrams list the striker as a "linear hammer", possibly making it a gray area.  This could affect 922r compliance when counting backwards:  16, vs 15, countable parts.  I haven't found anything definitive on this subject.

One of the first upgrades a VZ2008 should get after tabbing the carrier is a Czechoslovakian surplus chromed gas piston.  I've done it on mine, although one still has the Century carbon steel US-made part and it's been fine.  I've used Ronin grips to offset that 922r gray area.

To maintain 922r compliance, there are aftermarket, US-made options:  Ronin pistol grips, various hand guards, rifle stocks, as well as CNC Warrior and Bonesteel Arms having a selection of parts.  Keep in mind that a majority of VZ58 aftermarket parts are made new in the Czech Republic or Israel and won't satisfy 922r requirements.


No need for the "www" -- saves you a few keypunches...

Also, "strikers" insofar as the TPTB are concerned serve as both hammers and firing pins (such as the glock).  Since 2 piece on the VZ58, I think it's very safe to assume that it is in fact a linear hammer.

Great post TJN.
Title: Re: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: TJNewton on September 27, 2018, 11:44:21 AM
Thank you for the clarification, and the compliment.
Title: Re: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: czgunner on December 25, 2018, 01:41:46 PM
What are the US parts on the current CSA VZ58? I bought one this last summer.
So far I put a US muzzle device, piston and pistol grip on the rifle. I really don't wan to be stuck using the CSA mags, rather use surpus.
Title: Re: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: RSR on January 02, 2019, 02:24:31 PM
What are the US parts on the current CSA VZ58? I bought one this last summer.
So far I put a US muzzle device, piston and pistol grip on the rifle. I really don't wan to be stuck using the CSA mags, rather use surpus.

Different parts on every rifle they build.  You'll want to visit the listing for the specific rifle you purchased to confirm. 

For magazines, just the polymer follower and floorplate are US-made.  If black furniture, your CSA pistol-grip may have already have been US made.  The muzzle device, including thread protector, on the current LW 16" barrels is also US made IIRC.
Title: Re: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: Laufer on January 22, 2021, 06:38:24 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q23UAiEIHfk
Since when were any components, described in 922r,  required to state "Made in the USA"? Or just "GA", "TN", OH, AZ etc?

This is not included in 922r for imported AKMs or any other imported /assembled gun. No documentation for this seems to appear in any of the many discussions I've read-including Moderators' comments.

This is only one of the reasons why the ATF has never prosecuted anybody,  for Just a so-called 922r 'violation'. The spirit of their 'law', with several ill-defined areas, was created for importer/builders. Some of them have made mistakes in their parts count, and at most paid a fine-if punished at all.

The ATF can Add The 922R  charge--- if you are into human-trafficking,  selling illegal narcotics, robbing banks etc. The focus is on the actual felony-because they then have an actual....crime.

Also, who can know what is inside Your gun...even if anybody is into trivia?

Some of this was info gleaned from very seasoned builders on the original AKfiles-and some Mods who were there.

Here ^^^^ (video link) "Mishaco", "Misha" also discusses it on Youtube.   :) He is an AKM encyclopedia.  :o  No exaggeration.
People might at least listen to part of his video about 922R on Youtube (one of many videos), and the more rational viewers  8) will probably sleep much better.
Too many sections of 922R are ill-defined. as a starter.

He and a few friends asked ATF agents about 922R: ATF agent responses were "What are you talking about?"...."Don't waste my time"..."You can if you want to".
>>>> From about 6:20 it is interesting<<<<. Some of my info here is from quotes of the so-called 922R "law".

If my business consisted of selling AR, AKM, VZ-58 component$, my comments could easily be "Well, if you want to risk it, go buy that foreign $--t". $$$$.
But this doesn't happen with component sellers..... :-X What a lucrative racket to be in, especially now. We are not going to be arrested because a few parts- because they might resemble foreign types - might appear to be Arctic birch furniture etc, or have no country of origin stamped on it. None are required to state "Made in the US" or "made by Mattel" etc.

The ATF is overwhelmed with "illegally-modified" select-fire guns, huge batches of stolen guns from stores (ShootPointBlank-here in Memphis), houses, cars--but to care about where parts in >>My gun (Not an importer)<<--out of tens of thousands of imported AKMs, VZs, M-1As from "Norinco" in China, pre-Obama Saigas.......were produced, with no stamp of the country of origin required on various components ?

Internet Group-Think isn’t to be questioned.

Title: Re: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: RSR on January 23, 2021, 06:11:49 PM
The ATF is overwhelmed with "illegally-modified" select-fire guns, huge batches of stolen guns from stores (ShootPointBlank-here in Memphis), houses, cars--but to care about where parts in >>My gun (Not an importer)<<--out of tens of thousands of imported AKMs, VZs, M-1As from "Norinco" in China, pre-Obama Saigas.......were produced, with no stamp of the country of origin required on various components ?

Internet Group-Think isn’t to be questioned.

Past performance does not provide assurance for future performance.  Current political rhetoric indicates that it'd behoove all gun owners to dot Is and cross Ts, like 922r.
Title: Re: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: Laufer on January 30, 2021, 12:33:59 AM
RSR: That is a reasonable perspective. You certainly are a diplomat.

Pardon that my comments rambled for so long.

Title: Re: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: RSR on January 30, 2021, 02:27:36 AM
RSR: That is a reasonable perspective. You certainly are a diplomat.

Pardon that my comments rambled for so long.

There was nothing wrong with your comments -- just a different perspective.

Per my understanding, the burden of proof should ultimately be on the BATF to show both material noncompliance and intentional noncompliance.  Further, I think modifying it from an imported "sporter" or "pistol" carries a higher bar than changing the modifications of a rifle.  But again, it's a question of one's risk analysis.  When in doubt, 100% intentional compliance is the best path forward IMO.
Title: Re: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: CitizenPete on May 11, 2021, 10:57:25 AM
Wow, some of these old posts and subjects, are bubbling to the surface again.  Interesting.  While I've never heard of anyone getting busted for 922R compliance issues, I always "crossed to Ts and dotted the Is" (as RSR said).  Still have a unused factory new mags and also a couple cans of mags with the Czechpoint polymer follower and either the OOW flat metal floor-plate or Czechpoint poly floor plate.   I think the flat metal floor plate from OOW was like $6 with tax at the time. 

I'll share a weird story about the Checkpoint polymer followers:  On some of the Century Arms variants the bolt would either get hung up on the follower while stripping the round off the mag or after the last round was fired. But if I cycled them in the OOW variant they would then work.  There was hangup somewhere on the follower (I don't remember exactly where).  Some quick work with a dremel or file (or cycling in the OOW) fixed the issue.

 :P I was considering offering a new service -- send me your mags with polymer followers and I'll cycle them in my OOW vz58, so they work in your vz2008. Ha!  :P
I'll probably list some mags in the future.  Two months ago a fellow drove 7 hours to meet me in Ohio, in order to buy 5 new factory mags and a bit of ammo, off an Armslist post.  Evidently it's illegal to ship 30 round mags into the state where he lives, but the way the law is written he can purchase out of state and carry them back?  Crazy.
Title: Re: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: RSR on May 11, 2021, 11:25:40 PM
I'll probably list some mags in the future.  Two months ago a fellow drove 7 hours to meet me in Ohio, in order to buy 5 new factory mags and a bit of ammo, off an Armslist post.  Evidently it's illegal to ship 30 round mags into the state where he lives, but the way the law is written he can purchase out of state and carry them back?  Crazy.

What!?  That's indeed nuts. 

Glad to see you back on the forums.  Hope you're doing well.
Title: Re: CZ-USA vz-58 Sporters and 18 USC 922(r) Compliance
Post by: briang2ad on December 09, 2021, 02:19:36 PM
I'll probably list some mags in the future.  Two months ago a fellow drove 7 hours to meet me in Ohio, in order to buy 5 new factory mags and a bit of ammo, off an Armslist post.  Evidently it's illegal to ship 30 round mags into the state where he lives, but the way the law is written he can purchase out of state and carry them back?  Crazy.

What!?  That's indeed nuts. 

Glad to see you back on the forums.  Hope you're doing well.


This happens ALL THE TIME with raw milk products.  :)