The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => CZ Gunsmithing => Topic started by: Birds Away on January 17, 2014, 04:05:50 AM
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This thread will be about upgrading my transitional pre-B with parts from Cajun Gun Works. What we want to attempt to show is the reduction in trigger pull weight with each step in the process. I acknowledge that trigger pull weight is not the be all and end all of a gun. There are elements of the trigger pull that cannot be quantified by numbers. I would also like to acknowledge my good friend, llh1956, who will be doing all of the grunt work making all of the upgrades, doing the polishing and tuning and taking the pictures. He is not a professional gunsmith. He's just a guy like me who loves CZs. Unlike me, he actually has some mechanical inclination and is able to actually keep track of all of these little parts and can ensure they end up where they are supposed to. He has performed these upgrades on probably 6 to 8 guns for me and a similar number for himself and his results have always exceeded my expectations. Our arrangement is that he performs these upgrades for me and I purchase extra parts for use in his guns. Works out great for both of us. So without further ado...
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l561/BirdsAway60/get-attachment7_zpsf98f6335.jpg)
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l561/BirdsAway60/get-attachment6_zpse817f46a.jpg)
I purchased this CZ 75 transitional pre-B on Gunbroker. Total expenditure for the purchase, shipping and transfer was $360.
We took her to the range on Tuesday evening and did some test firing. This gun is well-used but not abused. She functioned fine with no problems with feeding, ejecting, etc. I used Blazer Brass for the tests and my only comment was that, for a couple of guys in their 50's, the stock sights have seen better days. This will be fixed in time. Other than that the gun was as accurate as you would expect for this model and although the DA was long the SA was shorter than I expected. I suppose that is from extensive use. Anyway, after the test fire llh1956 put the gun on the trigger gauge. He did the 10 pull average using a Lyman Digital Trigger Pull gauge. With the stock mainspring single action was 4Lbs 8oz, He then installed the CGW 11.5 mainspring and the average of 10 pulls was 3Lbs 15 oz. Having a sub 4# pull by only changing the mainspring surprised both of us as we are used to doing upgrades on newer guns. So this should be interesting. Here is his photo of the gun broken down.
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l561/BirdsAway60/get-attachment8_zps47721ee7.jpg)
I will post the steps he has planned here, hopefully, later today. This should be interesting and I hope you all enjoy the thread.
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Nice, any idea on what all he is going to do? If so you should list it and mark them off one by one or is he just gonna keep going until you get the desired trigger pull your looking for.
Also any plans on competing with this gun? If not that opens up some more parts and mods.
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Yes, I am going to post the list later today. I sometimes forget some of the parts so I wanted to check with him and make sure I had it all covered. I am planning to compete with this gun. I know many will say that it is illegal and they are correct. Let me say that I compete for fun and with my skill level I am in no danger of beating any dedicated competitive shooters. Where we shoot does not do an inspection of the gun. I pay my $20 and shoot the courses with some friends and relatives. We have a good time and always finish well within the bottom half. If they tell me I have to shoot in a different class I won't really care because I am shooting against myself. My accuracy is very good but my speed is not. I want to see incremental improvement and I have so far.
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Sounds like the best of both world's to me, every upgrade still on the table but your working towards improving your skills. I'm off to work now was just curious what all was going to be on your list, if you don't mind when I get home later tonight I'll/others will look over your list and add anything we can thing of. O0 This could get you in trouble tho it might be a mile long.
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The following upgrades are planned: Polishing the action, installation of new disconnector, race hammer, adjustable sear, extended firing pin, reduced power firing pin spring, reduced power trigger return spring, removable trigger pin, 85c trigger and an 11.5# mainspring. This will include all of the associated pins and springs which are associated with these parts. I intend to also add a F/O front and EZ drift rear sight. Oh, of course, she will soon be sporting Hogue wraparound finger groove grips.
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Next step is polishing the internals, reassembly, and then put it on the gauge again. Results later.
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My friend llh1956 spent some time Saturday polishing all of the internals. I was surprised, as was he, that when he put it on the gauge after polishing the numbers were the same as before. There was no change at all. I attribute this to the fact that the gun is well-used and appears to have been fired quite a bit. He said that some of the parts were rough and took a good deal of polishing. So, now I am not sure. Anyway, he will be installing the parts this week so I guess we will see.
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hmmmm that does seem a little odd. What did he use polishing? dremel or sand paper and if polish what it he use or what grit on sand paper. What all did he polish? I guess if all the part are worn into each other enough then it might not make any difference.
Added: here's a couple tips that aren't commonly thought of, Tweak the sear spring it will light the SA, Tweaking the trigger return spring if you go to far the trigger will not reset in double action, you trade a little return time for a lighter pull, I like to run a polish tool steel # 13 pin and fit a # 19 pin. The 13 is the pin that goes through the sear I think a polish hardened tool steel pin better than the stock one but I've never put a gauge on it. The #19 pin holds the hammer pin in place but if you fit a tool steel one you can stabilize the sear cage with it. I boil mine in sulfuric acid to turn it black that way it looks stock.
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He installed all the parts in the lower last night. After installation she is at 2lbs 4oz SA and 6lbs 10oz DA. He said there is virtually no take up in SA whatsoever. I am going to take my B in and see how they feel side by side. He seemed to be very excited with the SA. These guns are so funny. You never know how they will come out. My Phantom has a DA like that. There seems to be no rhyme or reason why one gun ends up with a 6lb pull and one barely gets under 7. Of course, when shooting, I doubt most folks would be able to tell much of a difference. Hoping to get her to the range maybe Thursday or Friday.
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(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l561/BirdsAway60/get-attachment8_zpsc9ab4619.jpg)
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l561/BirdsAway60/get-attachment9_zpsf591267f.jpg)
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l561/BirdsAway60/get-attachment10_zpscd65fede.jpg)
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l561/BirdsAway60/get-attachment11_zps8ce3c2a5.jpg)
Not sure if anyone is still following this thread but here goes. llh1956 disassembled the pre-B, as can be seen in the preceding pics, and did all the polishing according to the instructions in Schmeky's polishing thread. As I said previously, when reassembled, the SA trigger averaged 2lbs 4oz and the DA averaged 6lbs 10oz. While going through this process he realized that if he racked the slide the hammer would not release when the trigger was pulled but if he thumbed the hammer back it released just fine. It also functioned fine in DA. Kind of perplexing. He checked it out pretty thoroughly to see if he had overlooked something during reassembly and couldn't determine what the problem was. So he gave Schmeky a call. After checking a few things and a few questions and answers back and forth the culprit was discovered. It turns out that the pre-B and B models differ slightly and the new disconnector will require some "fitting" in order to function correctly. So, now armed with detailed instructions, llh1956's next step, after acquiring the correct Dremel attachment, will be to remove a little here and there on the disconnector to ensure a good fit. The good news is that Schmeky says that, once the disco is properly "fitted" the trigger should be incredible.
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As Birds Away posted I followed schmecky's thread for Smoothing the Action which is very informative, at the top of the CZ Home Gunsmithing. After finding the problem with the hammer, sear not engaging when racking the slide and a call to schmeky to find out that fitting of the sear will be necessary, my next step is to buy a diamond type grinding wheel to use in my dremel. Then the process of removing .010 at at time and testing for hammer, sear engagement. When the proper amount has been removed and hammer sear engagement are set the last step is to smooth with 400 grit paper wrapped around a 1/8" steel rod. Going slow to finish fit and checking. This is to fit the single action side of the disco. If I have trouble with the double action that will be another tutorial by schmeky. After intial polishing and assembly and acheiving a 2lbs 4oz single and 6lbs 10oz double I do not find it necessary to the change hammer and sear cage pins as I polished them while chucked up in the dremal.
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^^^^See, he does exist. You guys were beginning to wonder... ;)
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So far I have done complete action polishing and installed every CGW part available on guns for Birds Away. PO6, 75 B all but no reach reduction kit, Phantom, Rami, PCR and currently working on the Pre B. All are awsome to shoot!! On my CZ's I have nearly completed everything on a Compact and Tactical and a SP-01 Shadow. After finishing them I recently purchased a 97B that will get the full polishing and CGW goodies installed. It will be converted to single action only
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So far I have done complete action polishing and installed every CGW part availabe on guns for Birds Away. PO6, 75 B all but no reach reduction kit, Phantom, Rami, PCR and currently working on the Pre B. All are awsome to shoot!! On my CZ's I have nearly completed everything on a Compact and Tactical and a SP-01 Shadow. After finishing them I recently purchased a 97B that will get the full polishing and CGW goodies installed. It will be converted to single action only
I'm rolling with that PCR you did. Its very nice.
I'm excited to see the potential of the pre B pistols. I'm curious to see what the final pull weight is once all is done.
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So far I have done complete action polishing and installed every CGW part availabe on guns for Birds Away. PO6, 75 B all but no reach reduction kit, Phantom, Rami, PCR and currently working on the Pre B. All are awsome to shoot!! On my CZ's I have nearly completed everything on a Compact and Tactical and a SP-01 Shadow. After finishing them I recently purchased a 97B that will get the full polishing and CGW goodies installed. It will be converted to single action only
I'm rolling with that PCR you did. Its very nice.
I'm excited to see the potential of the pre B pistols. I'm curious to see what the final pull weight is once all is done.
Thanks alot ,I'm glad you like my work!!
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a call to schmeky to find out that fitting of the sear will be necessary, my next step is to buy a diamond type grinding wheel to use in my dremel. Then the process of removing .010 at at time and testing for hammer, sear engagement. When the proper amount has been removed and hammer sear engagement are set the last step is to smooth with 400 grit paper wrapped around a 1/8" steel rod. Going slow to finish fit and checking. This is to fit the single action side of the disco. If I have trouble with the double action that will be another tutorial by schmeky
This will work out better anyway a fitted disco is the best way to go, if you haven't had one of these on a CZ before it's probably one of the best if not thee best improvement. Also if you can fit it for SA you can fit it for double action its the same idea in a different spot.
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I will update sometime this weekend after hand fitting the disco!!
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(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l561/BirdsAway60/get-attachment17_zps0b863e14.jpg)
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l561/BirdsAway60/get-attachment16_zps54d075e9.jpg)
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l561/BirdsAway60/get-attachment15_zps8de4c3e4.jpg)
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l561/BirdsAway60/get-attachment14_zps3ae715ee.jpg)
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l561/BirdsAway60/get-attachment13_zps3cb60e0c.jpg)
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l561/BirdsAway60/get-attachment12_zps6dc499ff.jpg)
Fitting the new disconnector.
llh1956 will be post later about it.
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Birds Away,
Awesome!! I really, really like your picture tutorial. I wish I was as creative and had the time. It would be great if this could be made into a sticky in the Gunsmith section. It would help a lot of folks.
You have the perfect diamond cutter for doing the disco fit. Bravo!
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Thanks, Schmeky. That's Losey's rig. He is doing all the work. He should be on here later to discuss what he did, etc.
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The modifications are complete. llh1956 said that the average pull for SA is now 2lbs 3oz. The DA is 7lbs 4oz. He also has my B, which has all the same mods but a drop in disco instead of the fitted one. The B measures SA 2lbs 9oz and DA 6lbs 3oz. These guns are really funny. For the pre B to have a full pound more in DA is a head scratcher. Schmeky has said before that you cannot predict how the guns will come out even with identical models. I am certainly not complaining. I know that trigger pull weight is really just a number and is not an accurate reflection of the smoothness and ease of the pull. Hopefully, if the weather moderates a bit, I will be able to take them both to the range for a test drive. Hopefully, llh1956 will be on here later to describe the process. I know he put an awful lot of work into these guns. He also swapped the sights putting the EZ drift rear and F/O sights on the pre-B and Meprolights on the B so I can carry it. I am very excited about getting my hands on these. I want to personally and publicly thank Losey (llh1956) for all of his efforts. Friends like him are very few and far between. I will be making another parts purchase from CGW so that he can finish his guns. I think that is a very small price to pay for all of the excellent work he did on these two. Of course I also need to thank Schmeky. Without his fantastic parts this would not be possible.
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Looking foward the Range report :)
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2
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Awesome :) Thanks for posting.
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What a way to spend a Sunday afternoon being trapped at home with my street drifted in!! The first picture shows where I blacked out the work area with a sharpie so I could keep my grind level. The next 2 pics show the start of grinding with a dremel using a diamond grinding accessory purchased at Menards. I had to remove about .020 total before the hammer sear engagement would release when the trigger is pulled after racking the slide into battery. I removed about .010 at a time, reassembled and test for function. The fourth pic is smoothing out using 400 grit paper on a 1/4" steel rod. The last is with all CGW parts installed and ready for final assembly. ( Thanks Schmeky for your info on completing this mod). Takeup with this mod is nothing thanks to Schmeky's parts and mod information. When ever I give him a call he is extremly helpful.
Next is a trip to the range sometime later this week I hope. Our weather has been very crappy!!
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I did not have to modify the double action side of the disco it worked perfect. After this mod the single action is truely amazing, one of the best I have done for Birds Away. The hardest thing on this was the tricky assembly of the manual safety with its spring and catch plate. I should have read about it before taking it apart. That little plate bounced off of my tool box and landed at my feet, a real pain! I should have used the baggy trick to catch it. As it was I used a correct dia paper clip to make a dissembly part.
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I can just imagine the expression on your face when it went PING!!! You are grossly under compensated. ;D
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Birds Away,
Awesome!! I really, really like your picture tutorial. I wish I was as creative and had the time. It would be great if this could be made into a sticky in the Gunsmith section. It would help a lot of folks.
You have the perfect diamond cutter for doing the disco fit. Bravo!
Are you kidding me? You are the guy that developed all of these fantastic parts and you wish you were as creative as me a knucklehead who posted a few pictures on the web? Be serious, Schmeky. If it wasn't for you we wouldn't have these awesome products.
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I got the guns back today. After some dry firing it is tough to tell the difference. I am no expert but I've shot quite a bit over the last few years. These guns, despite what the gauge says, are really very close. My friend Losey did a really fantastic job on both of these guns. The DA on the pre-B is just as smooth as the B which is really something. I just can't express how really smooth as glass they both are. Of course the SA on both is very short and sweet. Can't wait to get them to the range.
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The PICS and Comments on the procedures should be made a "Sticky" for fitting a CZ disconnector!
What say you?
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Congrats on the build now get out and do some shooting!!!
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Congrats on the build now get out and do some shooting!!!
I took her to the range last night...WOW!!!! The DA is smooth as silk and the SA is, well, indescribably delicious, lol. That SA is so short and sweet that it seems to be a direct link from brain to target. Just think squeeze and a pretty dot shows up in the center of the reactive target. It really doesn't feel like the same gun as when I shot it after first getting it. I even put about 50 rounds through it left handed and my groups were no bigger than right handed. It is just a fantastic gun and I really wish I was a good enough shooter to really do it justice. My only issue is that these old eyes had some trouble picking up the F/O front sight in the poorly lit range. I'm sure that will not be a problem in sunlight. I just can't say enough about Schmeky's parts and my good friend llh1956s skills. I am one happy camper and I just wish some of you guys could come and shoot some of these guns so you would know just how awesome they all are.
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So I know this is a really old thread, and hopefully I'm not upsetting anybody by bumping this back up. BUT this is a really good read even if your not doing this work currently. ALSO I by sheer luck happen to live in the same small town as the two guys doing all of this work, I happened to be next to them at our local range and personally got to shoot these guns and oh my my. I had no idea all the unbelievable work that went into them. Fantastic work 11h1956 and Birds Away. I had no idea I was in the presence of such talent. Thanks again for your tips. Hope to meet up with you guys again sometime.
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Indeed this is a great thread, it can always use a bump. Very cool that you happen to live so close to these guys. Small world.
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So I know this is a really old thread, and hopefully I'm not upsetting anybody by bumping this back up. BUT this is a really good read even if your not doing this work currently. ALSO I by sheer luck happen to live in the same small town as the two guys doing all of this work, I happened to be next to them at our local range and personally got to shoot these guns and oh my my. I had no idea all the unbelievable work that went into them. Fantastic work 11h1956 and Birds Away. I had no idea I was in the presence of such talent. Thanks again for your tips. Hope to meet up with you guys again sometime.
Thanks, Heavy. It was great meeting you and your P09 is an absolute work of art. llh1956 is the one with all of the talent. Wish I still had that pre-B but life happens. Look forward to seeing you at the range again.
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Thanks Heavy, I enjoyed shooting your Cajunized P09 it is a sweet shooter! Hope to shoot with you again!
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The PICS and Comments on the procedures should be made a "Sticky" for fitting a CZ disconnector!
What say you?
We have so many stickeys in this section, it's becoming a problem, but I give you one more.
Half the page is stickeys and I don't want to see a whole page of stickeys, ever! ::)
IF the poster will make a thread on just fitting a Cz Disonnector, I'll trade that one stickeyed for this thread.
Otherwise, this thread can remain stickeyed.
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The PICS and Comments on the procedures should be made a "Sticky" for fitting a CZ disconnector!
What say you?
We have so many stickeys in this section, it's becoming a problem, but I give you one more.
Half the page is stickeys and I don't want to see a whole page of stickeys, ever! ::)
IF the poster will make a thread on just fitting a Cz Disonnector, I'll trade that one stickeyed for this thread.
Otherwise, this thread can remain stickeyed.
I agree about too many stickies. As an alternative, how about one sticky thread that is a title/link archive for all the threads that are stickied individually? The format would look like...
Making Magic - Cajunizing the Pre-B. http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=61135.msg401613#msg401613
The thread title could be anything...CZ Gunsmithing FAQ or the like.
It would bring more current material to the front page.
Just a thought.
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I. think a lot of us are still soaking this up. Personally, I'm working up the courage to do a full disassembly and pointers are my food right now!
Thanks!
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Well, it's funny how life turns. The gentleman who bought this gun bailed me out when I was in a bit of a financial pickle. Just recently, I returned the favor. He had been running into some terrible luck so he asked if I wanted it back. So, now she sits in my safe again and I am very happy about it.
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I can't seem to take a decent picture anymore. But, here she is...
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l561/BirdsAway60/IMG_0718_zpsb6f43qxl.jpg)
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Very very Nice! 8)
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Indeed, i like how the checkering on the hammer, rear sight and slide are faced different directions.
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I can't seem to take a decent picture anymore. But, here she is...
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l561/BirdsAway60/IMG_0718_zpsb6f43qxl.jpg)
As things turn around in our group in central Indiana I now have the 75 pre b from the Making Magic sticky by way of a trade from my good friend Birds Away. This one turned out great after I had to fit the disco, the lack of take up is amazing. It is funny because I have done a lot of these transformations using CGW parts and they all turn out extremely good with one here and there that will be awesome even though I do the same amount of work to each. The difference between an awesome build and an extremely good build is equivalent to a Nat's butt!!! This is a fantastic example of the Cajunazation of a CZ pre-B.
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Okay, I got it back through trade. It is now sporting Truglo TFO fiber optic only sights. This one was too sweet to let get away for long.
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I have a pre b in my shadow #1 and now it won't fire in DA. Dropped in a new pre B disconnector and it works. Is there mods I can make to the old one to get it to work again. Thanks.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Is there anyway to fix the pics in this post?
It would be great to see the pics
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Is there anyway to fix the pics in this post?
It would be great to see the pics
Nope! Not unless you can get Photobucket to change their new policy.
This has wrecked quite a few threads, now.
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Is there anyway to fix the pics in this post?
It would be great to see the pics
Nope! Not unless you can get Photobucket to change their new policy.
This has wrecked quite a few threads, now.
Unless of course Birds Away still has the pics and would be willing to upload them to a new hosting site.
I thought it was worth asking.
Thanks anyway
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Legit.. Love cajun
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Legit.. Love cajun
I'm sorry but I don't have those pictures anymore.
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Glad I found this thread - working on a Pre B now. Thanks!
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Ditto!!! Thanks for the thread!!
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One question I've got is on the sights - @llh1956 - did you have to mill out the original front sight to get the new one in? My eyes, like yours and Birdman's are old and that antiquated blade just won't work! ::)
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IF the poster will make a thread on just fitting a Cz Disonnector, I'll trade that one stickeyed for this thread.
Otherwise, this thread can remain stickeyed.
Yeah, it seems fitting the disconnector is a major leap forward - but I have no idea how to do it, even after reading through this thread.
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IF the poster will make a thread on just fitting a Cz Disonnector, I'll trade that one stickeyed for this thread.
Otherwise, this thread can remain stickeyed.
Yeah, it seems fitting the disconnector is a major leap forward - but I have no idea how to do it, even after reading through this thread.
Sorry it took me so long to get back to you. I've had a rough year. Anyway, you will notice that the front sights are pinned. That makes it relatively easy to replace them. That's why I avoid the A model of pre-B. Those you have to have milled.