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CZ LONG ARMS => CZF RIMFIRES => Topic started by: ocny17 on May 14, 2015, 10:00:51 AM

Title: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: ocny17 on May 14, 2015, 10:00:51 AM
Per CZ's FAQ below, they warn against the use of 22LR sub-sonic ammo.  'Read their reason for this, but I also read some posts about using sub-sonic ammo and no reports of problems.  Any comments?


From http://cz-usa.com/support/faq/ (http://cz-usa.com/support/faq/):

Q: ?I?ve heard you use tight bores in your .22s, is that right? What does that mean??

A: Our .22 LRs use our cold hammer forged and lapped barrels, and are built a bit tighter than many other guns. In .22 LR we run a .211 bore, which is one of the reasons our .22s are known for incredible accuracy. This also means that a .17 or .20 rod and jag are required for cleaning, since a .22 rod will be too large. Additionally, use of .22 Short, Long and Sub-Sonic ammunition isn?t recommended because of the tight bore.

Q: ?Can I shoot CCI Stingers or long-for chambering Sub-Sonic ammo in my CZ??

A: Our .22 LR rifles are built to tight tolerances for increased accuracy, and our chamber is what other manufacturers might refer to as a ?Match? chamber. The tight tolerances mean overly long cartridges may not fit, so Stingers and some large sub-sonic loads will be too long to allow the bolt to close. Also, we warn customers against using sub-sonic loads because of our tighter bores.
Title: Re: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: painter on May 14, 2015, 10:39:12 AM
All standard velocity ammunition is sub-sonic.

They're talking about stuff like CCI Quiet and Aguila Colibri and Super Colibri which are labeled .22LR.

The rifle is not chambered for anything that is labeled .22 Short or .22 Long.
Title: Re: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: gryphon on May 14, 2015, 11:15:14 AM
If that's true then I guess I should have done a little more research before choosing my CZ. For me, one of the main attractions to a bolt rifle has always been that they are less finicky about ammo than autoloaders. In todays marketplace where you never know what type of rimfire ammo you're going to find (if any) I did not want to be stuck having to pass ammo up because of my rifles inability to use it. I suppose that when/if things get better it will be a moot point but still...
Title: Re: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: ocny17 on May 14, 2015, 12:01:58 PM
All standard velocity ammunition is sub-sonic.

They're talking about stuff like CCI Quiet and Aguila Colibri and Super Colibri which are labeled .22LR.

The rifle is not chambered for anything that is labeled .22 Short or .22 Long.

Oh boy... since it's so hard to find 22LR ammo these days, I picked up whatever was available this week, and one type was the CCI 22LR Quiet ammo:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/CCI-22-LR-Quiet-Ammo/21556266

I measured the OAL and the diameter between this sub-sonic, a standard velocity one, and a high velocity variant, and I also loaded each in the magazine and chambered them, then also spun them around in the chamber... all very close in dimensions, all spun freely enough in the chamber.  I guess I'll give all of them a try this weekend or next.
Title: Re: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: painter on May 14, 2015, 12:54:31 PM
If that's true then I guess I should have done a little more research before choosing my CZ. For me, one of the main attractions to a bolt rifle has always been that they are less finicky about ammo than autoloaders. In todays marketplace where you never know what type of rimfire ammo you're going to find (if any) I did not want to be stuck having to pass ammo up because of my rifles inability to use it. I suppose that when/if things get better it will be a moot point but still...
An auto loader is a different situation. They require the power of the round to operate the action.

Bolt actions are less finicky. You can manually load anything into it and pull the trigger.

Some CZ rifles can use the slower velocities. My Lux runs the Aguila Sub Sonic just fine. I've never tried the Colibri or Super Colibri.

Occasionally you'll find a rifle that will make the very low velocity ammo into a squib. It's very possible in an Ultra Lux with a 28" barrel. Keep in mind the Colibri is a primer only round.

If you use the ammo just make sure it exits the barrel before you send another down the tube.

If you're buying ammo a box at a time in this climate you will remain at the whim of the market. Look online and buy by the brick for decent ammo.

All standard velocity ammunition is sub-sonic.

They're talking about stuff like CCI Quiet and Aguila Colibri and Super Colibri which are labeled .22LR.

The rifle is not chambered for anything that is labeled .22 Short or .22 Long.

Oh boy... since it's so hard to find 22LR ammo these days, I picked up whatever was available this week, and one type was the CCI 22LR Quiet ammo:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/CCI-22-LR-Quiet-Ammo/21556266

I measured the OAL and the diameter between this sub-sonic, a standard velocity one, and a high velocity variant, and I also loaded each in the magazine and chambered them, then also spun them around in the chamber... all very close in dimensions, all spun freely enough in the chamber.  I guess I'll give all of them a try this weekend or next.
The problem with the quiets is the velocity. It's only 710 fps at the muzzle which is roughly 3/4 of standard velocity. It's like a CB in the size of LR. Try it, and verify it exits the barrel. Unless you have a long barreled Ultra Lux it most likely will be fine.
Title: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: Ruber on May 14, 2015, 01:10:05 PM
Ii think they are more concerned with the basic quiet loads not making it all the way down the barrel, then having someone fire another shot with the first stuck in there.

I have not had that experience, but others have.  I've only used the CCI and Remington quiets, CB's and CBees..  My favorite are the Rem CBees, but they are louder than the CCI CB's.

I use them in my 452 UL and 452 Scout for small pest control in areas where it's nice to be polite.  In the UL, they are quitter than most airguns.


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Title: Re: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: ocny17 on May 14, 2015, 01:15:28 PM
The problem with the quiets is the velocity. It's only 710 fps at the muzzle which is roughly 3/4 of standard velocity. It's like a CB in the size of LR. Try it, and verify it exits the barrel. Unless you have a long barreled Ultra Lux it most likely will be fine.

I just received this week a 455 Training rifle, so it's longer than the regular 455s but shorter than the UL.  When I get to the range, I'll shoot w/ the other ammo first and try the CCI Quiet ammo last, keeping in mind what you said.  I really don't want a potential squib, but in case this happens, at least I'll be almost done for the day.  The video below is what gave me some peace of mind that at least it wasn't an issue for this person as far as squibs are concerned:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUbbXIvY1zE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUbbXIvY1zE)
Title: Re: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: gryphon on May 14, 2015, 01:25:13 PM
From Painter, "If you're buying ammo a box at a time in this climate you will remain at the whim of the market. Look online and buy by the brick for decent ammo". So do you know of someplace that will sell quality ammo by the brick without charging $75 or more. I can shoot my .357 Magnums for less than $6 per 50 rounds (reloading of course) and I refuse to pay more than double that for .22 ammo.
Title: Re: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: painter on May 14, 2015, 03:47:30 PM
From Painter, "If you're buying ammo a box at a time in this climate you will remain at the whim of the market. Look online and buy by the brick for decent ammo". So do you know of someplace that will sell quality ammo by the brick without charging $75 or more. I can shoot my .357 Magnums for less than $6 per 50 rounds (reloading of course) and I refuse to pay more than double that for .22 ammo.

I feel the same. It's out there you gotta look. Prices for rimfire will never be what they were again.

I've bought 5 bricks of CCI SV for under $50/brick, and 2K rounds of S&B surplus for 8 cents a round in the last 6 months.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ammunition/rimfire-ammunition/cci-22lr-standard-velocity-500rd-box-50035.html  I think it's just over $100 for 2 bricks shipped.

No limits...reasonable price...Runs in my Kadet. How can you hate it?

edited to add...

Check their shipping page. They don't ship to AK or HI. I get shipments to my door in NH in a week with never a glitch.
Title: Re: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: painter on May 14, 2015, 04:53:39 PM
The problem with the quiets is the velocity. It's only 710 fps at the muzzle which is roughly 3/4 of standard velocity. It's like a CB in the size of LR. Try it, and verify it exits the barrel. Unless you have a long barreled Ultra Lux it most likely will be fine.

I just received this week a 455 Training rifle, so it's longer than the regular 455s but shorter than the UL.  When I get to the range, I'll shoot w/ the other ammo first and try the CCI Quiet ammo last, keeping in mind what you said.  I really don't want a potential squib, but in case this happens, at least I'll be almost done for the day.  The video below is what gave me some peace of mind that at least it wasn't an issue for this person as far as squibs are concerned:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUbbXIvY1zE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUbbXIvY1zE)
I have a friend that uses them in his Lux also when shooting out the kitchen window. Your 455 trainer has the same length barrel as the 452 Lux.
Title: Re: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: Rimfire7 on May 14, 2015, 09:22:51 PM
I have shot thousands of rounds of CCI Quiet through all my 452's........it is all I shoot here at my home place to keep the noise low.  Out of the UL you can even hear it 100' away .    One round stuck, one time only in my UL because of a bad round.  No 'pop' at all.   CCI quiet is 710 fps.   I do not use the Colibri rounds in a CZ. 
Title: Re: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: painter on May 15, 2015, 06:48:32 AM
I have shot thousands of rounds of CCI Quiet through all my 452's........it is all I shoot here at my home place to keep the noise low.  Out of the UL you can even hear it 100' away .    One round stuck, one time only in my UL because of a bad round.  No 'pop' at all.   CCI quiet is 710 fps.   I do not use the Colibri rounds in a CZ.
How much does it change POI from say a SV round?
Title: Re: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: ocny17 on May 15, 2015, 08:37:29 AM
I have shot thousands of rounds of CCI Quiet through all my 452's........it is all I shoot here at my home place to keep the noise low.  Out of the UL you can even hear it 100' away .    One round stuck, one time only in my UL because of a bad round.  No 'pop' at all.   CCI quiet is 710 fps.   I do not use the Colibri rounds in a CZ.
How much does it change POI from say a SV round?

I'm interested to know as well. For now, I can only base my guess on the video I posted above which shows the guy shooting his 452 UL at 25 yards, and it looks like the CCI Quiet ammo is grouping okay although below POA as compared to his grouping w/ the Aguila subsonic ammo.
Title: Re: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: PaperPuncher on May 15, 2015, 09:29:23 PM
..... Also, we warn customers against using sub-sonic loads because of our tighter bores.
[/i]

Dang!!! Wish I'd heard that a few thousand rounds (and a few hundred dollars) ago.

We need another name for the sub-sub sonics like the Aguila Colibri/Super Colibri. It makes no sense to group them with Wolf, RWS, etc. In my experience "Subsonic" (i.e. Standard Velocity i.e. approx. 1050 fps) shoots like a dream from a 455 American and a 452 Lux. The primer-only super-quiet ammo has its place but it is not in a CZ unless you want to shoot with a cleaning rod by your side to push them out of the barrel.
Title: Re: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: ocny17 on May 16, 2015, 10:31:50 AM
BTW, I just scored some 22LR ammo below from 1 Walmart:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Federal-Ammunition-22LR-40gr-Auto-Match-325ct/17133655
($18.97+tax for 325 rounds)

I think I figured out how their local inventory works, at least based on what I was told by a couple of employees who placed orders for ammo, and me getting there first thing the following morning:
- Check walmart.com for local store inventory; make sure they are "Out of stock"
- At night about an hour or so before the store closes, check online for their inventory again; if you see it's "In stock" you can call and confirm that they have an order coming in the following morning
- Show up at the local Walmart store when they open (7:00 AM around here) and be first in line

After taxes and no FFL transfer fees, it's averaging at around $0.06/round of 22LR from Walmart.  That's much more acceptable.
Title: Re: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: painter on May 16, 2015, 11:20:34 AM
Lots of people play the Walmart in stock game. I don't have the patience.

I'd just as soon pay a couple of cents more, if it really ends up that much after all the running around and fuel costs, and have it delivered to my door.
Title: Re: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: ocny17 on May 16, 2015, 11:53:07 AM
Lots of people play the Walmart in stock game. I don't have the patience.

I'd just as soon pay a couple of cents more, if it really ends up that much after all the running around and fuel costs, and have it delivered to my door.

True and makes sense.  Depends on one's area I suppose.  In my case, although I'm not lucky enough to have actual CZ firearms in my nearby local gun shops, I do have quick access to a few Walmart stores in all directions.

All non-local purchases in my area need to go to an FFL dealer (minimum $10 additional cost, typically $0.01/round fee). Factor in shipping costs and driving a little farther for the nearest FFL dealer, it ends up being about double or higher for me for 22LR when compared to Walmart.  Now, pistol ammo is a different story -- I buy almost exclusively these days from Freedom Munitions... until I find myself reloading like others. :)
Title: Re: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: P.K.Hansen on May 16, 2015, 02:38:05 PM
My cz455 shoots RWS subsonic just fine, but their Z-lang are all over the taget. A shame, because they are extremely quiet. Especially when using a silencer, they are perfect garden rounds.
Title: Re: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: painter on May 16, 2015, 04:38:08 PM
True and makes sense.  Depends on one's area I suppose.  In my case, although I'm not lucky enough to have actual CZ firearms in my nearby local gun shops, I do have quick access to a few Walmart stores in all directions.

All non-local purchases in my area need to go to an FFL dealer (minimum $10 additional cost, typically $0.01/round fee). Factor in shipping costs and driving a little farther for the nearest FFL dealer, it ends up being about double or higher for me for 22LR when compared to Walmart.  Now, pistol ammo is a different story -- I buy almost exclusively these days from Freedom Munitions... until I find myself reloading like others. :)
That's unfortunate. We don't have those restrictions here, which is a good thing because I haven't seen a box of 22 in any Walmart for over 2 years and online or LGS is the only option. The LGS has silly limits of 1 or 2 boxes which won't get me through 2 bullseye matches in the winter indoor league I shoot.

Availability seems to be improving everywhere. Too bad prices will stay significantly higher than they were before this shortage.
Title: Re: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: ocny17 on May 16, 2015, 07:36:29 PM
Prices are definitely at an all-time high.  'Wish they'll come down a bit once there's a surplus (yeah, sure, I'll hold my breath).

I took the 455 Training rifle to the indoor range today (was raining) which only gave me upto 20 yds shooting distance.  Well, my eyes could see clearly up to 15 yds and in a standing position, I was able to group about 1/2" using all 3 ammo (Winchester M-22 @1255 fps, Federal AutoMatch @1200 fps, and CCI Quiet @710 fps).  At 20 yds, lighting was poor and my eyes couldn't see clearly anymore, so I didn't have good groupings.  I'll see if I can get to an outdoor range next time as I'd like to test accuracy at 50 yds for all 3 ammo types.

Oh, the CCI Quiet ammo was... no surprise, VERY quiet.  I had a split-second doubt if I fired the gun or if the guy a few lanes away was the one who fired.  No issues whatsoever with the CCI Quiet.
Title: Re: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: painter on May 16, 2015, 08:51:24 PM
How was the POI of the quiets compared to the other ammo you shot?
Title: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: Ruber on May 17, 2015, 03:20:17 PM
I've not tried the quiets or cb's much beyond 25 yards.  In my experience, at that range, poi was close to that of SV rounds when using factory sights.  For precise shooting at that range, adjustments would need to be made between the different types, but I saw no variation that wasn't typical of brand to brand variation in SV, though I don't know if I'd call the CCI quiets precise.

A lot will depend on your sight system (open vs globe vs scope) as that effects distance from line of sight to the bore axis.  Using factory irons sighted at 50 yards with SV ammo, I'm happy with throwing in the quiets and firing away in the 20-60 yard range at the rimfire silhouette sized targets.


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Title: Re: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: ocny17 on May 17, 2015, 03:50:29 PM
How was the POI of the quiets compared to the other ammo you shot?

Using all 3 ammo, I was hitting center of bullseye @ 15 yds which is the limit of my vision for my small targets in our so-so indoor range.  At 20 yds, I couldn't really see my targets that sharply anymore, grouping wasn't good, but all 3 ammo types were still centered around bullseye.  I was expecting the CCI Quiet to drop a little bit, but I suppose 20 yds isn't far enough for this to be noticeable.

'Hoping to get to an outdoor range next time and shoot from a bench.
Title: Re: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: painter on May 17, 2015, 06:55:52 PM
All good info. Thanks.

Under the circumstances I'd use a quiet round it sound like the POA/POI is close enough to SV that I don't have to re-zero..
Title: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: Ruber on May 17, 2015, 08:59:37 PM
Ehhh... Within their useful range.  Don't run out and try a 100 yrd match with them.

The Remington quiets had better bullet design at the same velocity as the cci's.  Made them a tad noisier, but they held their path better and actually shot better than most 22 shorts I've tried (and quieter).

Ps.  This is what I use for squirrels to rats out at about 25-50 yards with the Rem quiets.  I'll use the CCI quiets more in the scout at 25 or less where having the sights close to the bore really helps.  I use a BL-22 a lot also, but if it's muddy out, I use the CZ's...:D
(http://www.gopherprints.com/files/LuxyLuxLo.jpg) (http://www.gopherprints.com/files/LuxyLuxMed.jpg)

Title: Re: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: Flytyer on February 02, 2016, 10:39:57 PM
Thread is perhaps a bit old, but still relevant.
I have tested the CCI Super Quiet in both types, the segmented hollow point and the Lead Round Nose. In my 455 Trainer I get about 1 out of 5 rounds of the segmented hollow points stuck in the barrel. They usually fall out on their own after about 20 seconds but they don't exit the barrel when fired. I rarely get a LRN subsonic to fail to exit, but it has happened a couple times. Both are rated at 710 fps muzzle velocity and 40 grains. Trajectory falls off fast after 20 yards, so I only use them for close in shooting.
Title: Re: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: carrollms on January 13, 2018, 09:39:19 PM
I just visited the CZ FAQ, and there is a  sentence at the end that I did not see posted above - possibly added: "This is not to exclude quality match or target ammos, which may remain sub-sonic in speed."

here is the Q&A in context at as of 1/13/18 http://cz-usa.com/support/faq/

quote

Q: ?I?ve heard you use tight bores in your .22s, is that right? What does that mean??
A: Our 22 LRs use our cold hammer forged and lapped barrels, and are built a bit tighter than many other guns. In 22 LR we run a .211 bore, which is one of the reasons our .22s are known for incredible accuracy. This also means that a .17 or .20 rod and jag are required for cleaning, since a .22 rod will be too large.

Additionally, use of .22 Short, Long and ?Sub-Sonic? ammunition isn?t recommended because of the tight bore. This is not to exclude quality match or target ammos, which may remain sub-sonic in speed.

end quote

Comment: I just bought two bricks of CCI SV 50 gr to use in my new CZ455 before coming across this discussion. I suspect there will be no issue with its use, but I will be mindful of the answer and qualifier given above and all positive comments in the string concerning CCI SV.

msc

 
Title: Re: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: painter on January 13, 2018, 10:45:35 PM
You'll have no issues with the CCI SV.
Title: Re: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: Catdaddy2 on January 14, 2018, 09:10:41 AM
I don't  know about presently but before cci quiets had a disclaimer on the box not to shoot out of barrel longer than 24".
Title: Re: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: painter on January 15, 2018, 07:30:35 AM
I don't  know about presently but before cci quiets had a disclaimer on the box not to shoot out of barrel longer than 24".
I've seen photos of that warning, but also don't know if they're still currently using it.

Quiets, and Colibri's, are the specific types of ammo that the recommendation was addressing.
Title: Re: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: Wink57 on May 18, 2018, 07:27:09 PM
BTW, I just scored some 22LR ammo below from 1 Walmart:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Federal-Ammunition-22LR-40gr-Auto-Match-325ct/17133655
($18.97+tax for 325 rounds)

I think I figured out how their local inventory works, at least based on what I was told by a couple of employees who placed orders for ammo, and me getting there first thing the following morning:
- Check walmart.com for local store inventory; make sure they are "Out of stock"
- At night about an hour or so before the store closes, check online for their inventory again; if you see it's "In stock" you can call and confirm that they have an order coming in the following morning
- Show up at the local Walmart store when they open (7:00 AM around here) and be first in line

After taxes and no FFL transfer fees, it's averaging at around $0.06/round of 22LR from Walmart.  That's much more acceptable.


I try to only buy S&B for all 34 of my cz rimfire/centerfire


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Title: Re: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: TheChunkNorris on May 27, 2018, 03:55:49 AM
I?ve shot the following subs through my 455 Tacticool w/a SiCo Warlock:

-Eley
-Gemtech
-GECO
-CCI quiet

Haven?t had any issues thus far.
Title: Re: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: ethangsmith on June 10, 2018, 02:47:09 PM
I've been using a .22 caliber boresnake and jag with cleaning cloth on my 452's and while you have to shove, they fit through. Should I step down to a .17 caliber? Have I done any damage?
Title: Re: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: painter on June 10, 2018, 06:47:41 PM
I've been using a .22 caliber boresnake and jag with cleaning cloth on my 452's and while you have to shove, they fit through. Should I step down to a .17 caliber? Have I done any damage?
Doubtful.
Title: Re: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: Wiley Coyote on July 15, 2018, 10:13:21 PM
..Should I step down to a .17 caliber? Have I done any damage?
Doubtful.

Heard and red lots of posts about you can't get a .22 cal rod past the Bolt Guide. HA, I can't get my old .22 cal B&M Rods in the bore. SO I opted for a pair .20 cal rods from Ivy. We'll see soon as they get here. And there's no way you can damage a 2.22 cal steel barrel with a patch, unless it's soaked in a bad acid.

You're to o. Shoot your rifle and enjoy it.
Title: Re: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: dale5150 on March 14, 2019, 01:37:45 PM
I shoot quiets in my American often with no issues.
Title: Re: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: patjarrell on March 22, 2019, 09:53:49 PM
I have the 455 synthetic 20" barrel....colibri's won't make it out of the barrel, super colibri's will. I've shot thousands of cci quiets with no problems ...they're actually pretty consistent.

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Title: Re: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: whstmoke on April 06, 2019, 08:51:51 PM
I was told that the colibri was for revolvers and the super colibri was for bolt guns. they are fun to shoot and you get a good laugh when you watch them go s=down range.
Title: Re: 22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?
Post by: patjarrell on April 07, 2019, 08:56:14 PM
It is funny to actually see a bullet down range! I've lobbed some CCI quiets out to 100 yards for laughs at a club I shoot at. Can see them arcing into the target too.