The Original CZ Forum

CZ PISTOL CLUBS => CZ75, 75b, 75 SAO - All Full-Size Pistols => Topic started by: MattStainless on June 11, 2017, 11:01:03 AM

Title: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: MattStainless on June 11, 2017, 11:01:03 AM
Is it ok to dry fire these guns... a lot?

Having trouble finding a clear answer.

I have replaced the firing pin retaining pin with the cgw provided pin in the defensive carry package.

The stock pin that came out did have some noticeable wear on it.

at any rate, I've been using snap caps, not sure if they are helping anything. 

Dry firing ok?

Title: Re: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: Warbird on June 11, 2017, 11:18:23 AM
Snap caps "cushion" the firing pin. Use them (or an o-ring under the hammer) and keep on dry-firing!   :-)

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: BuckJm53 on June 11, 2017, 12:12:32 PM
Is it ok to dry fire these guns... a lot?

Matt ... Not sure of your definition of a lot.  Hundreds? ... Thousands? .... Tens of Thousands?


That said, I have dry fired my 75b at least a couple thousand times (some with laser cartridge and some without) in addition to over 16,000 live rounds down the pipe with the original firing pin and no issues.  Keeping it real, any significant dry fire (movement of mechanical parts) with any center fire pistol will create some degree of "wear" over a period of time.  Bottom line in my view ... watch for excessive wear, replace parts if needed and carry on with your dry fire practice  :) .
Title: Re: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: Tok36 on June 11, 2017, 12:40:10 PM
From what i have seen, the issue that eventually comes up from dry firing is ware on the factory Firing Pin Retaining Pin. For insurance i like to install the Cajun Gun Works replacement option. For 5 bucks i have found it to be worth it.


61100 Firing Pin Retaining Pin

https://cajungunworks.com/product/61100-tempered-spring-steel-firing-pin-retaining-pin/

As mentioned above placing a rubber O-ring behind the Firing Pin during long dry firing sessions is also a good idea. With the replacement CGW's FPRP and an O ring i have not seen anyone have any issues.

Picture for reference.
(http://i.imgur.com/EIXMaFy.jpg)

Title: Re: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: M1A4ME on June 11, 2017, 12:44:07 PM
I'm no expert and not a gunsmith.

However, after having "fiddled" with several of my CZ's (and one pistol that belongs to my youngest son) I'm reminded of something I've believed for a long time.

Even guns of the same model can/will be different than another.  Manufacturing tolerances and QC specs (a range of what is acceptable).

The CZ 75 Compact Clone I'm carrying now was brand new when I bought it.  The FFL I order through cut the tape/tag on the box so I could see it after I filled out the paperwork and we were waiting on the "instant background check" to go through. 

I took it to the range and shot a box or so of ammo through it.  When I got it home and started taking it apart to put the CGW goodies in it the firing pin retaining pin I removed from it was already crushed in on one side.  How much dry firing do they do at the factory?  Or, was the slot in the firing pin enough different in this pistol - or the roll pin soft enough, that the first range session (no drying firing) damaged the roll pin that much?

I've seen other pins that just had the finish knocked off them and I know I dry fired them some.

I bought snap caps for all the CZ's.  9MM and .40 S&W.  Then I bought more and gave some to my sons and nephew.
Title: Re: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: Tyerone on June 11, 2017, 05:26:43 PM
I reused my original Matte Stainless firing pin retaining pin having made the CGW 3 spring mod before receiving both harden pin replacements from cgw and czc.  Despite having dry fired maybe 75 times without snap caps since 2012, it appeared in good shape.

My PCR's pin, however had a hole cut into it after only a handful of dry fires!  Replaced with CGW version, haven't checked it since (low round count since then).  Pretty much the only time my guns are dry fired without snap caps is when introducing other shooters to them before hitting the range.

Maybe should replace my snap caps.  Do THEY have a life/rating?  I'm too afraid to use the o-ring (not really).  If left in accidentally gun no go bang!  Bad thing if needed for SD.
Title: Re: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: delphidoc on June 11, 2017, 11:56:20 PM
I've never used snap caps but I've read that they eventually begin to crumble and deposit plastic debris in the barrel and inside the frame.

I bought a pack of #83 O-rings at the local hardware store. Much cheaper than snap caps and they seem to work fine.

As someone else posted in the past 3 of my 4 CZs still set off a laser cartridge when dry firing with an O-ring. I found I had to use an O-ring with the laser because the extended firing pins started screwing up the cartridge- it started staying on all the time until I started using the O-ring with it.
Title: Re: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: 1SOW on June 12, 2017, 01:11:32 AM
With those CZs that have the Firing Pin Safety,  they are susceptible to damage the firing pin stop/pin.  It is a roll pin that can be crushed where the firing pin hits it in the center of the roll pin.  This can make it very difficut to remove,  or even start to shed "splinters" tha can jam the FP .  several threads here and other places have posted pics and described the difficult repairs.
I now use the (oops)  "O-RING" instead of snap caps.  I use the snap caps for FTF/jam practice drills and to check my trigger pulls.
Title: Re: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: Longshanks on June 12, 2017, 04:46:50 AM
Tyerone's  post  got me thinking ...


".......  I'm too afraid to use the o-ring (not really).  If left in accidentally gun no go bang!  Bad thing if needed for SD......."

 since the O-ring seems a good way to cushion that hammer ,  why not  attach 2 or 3 inches of  some sort of brightly colored string to that O-ring. You can still use it without forgetting it in there . Just an idea
Title: Re: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: Joe L on June 12, 2017, 07:43:37 AM
Snap caps cease to be effective after a few dry fires.  An 0-ring or even a foam ear plug will save your firing pin and retaining pin.  I've dinged up several factory pins dry firing without protection. 

Joe
Title: Re: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: eastman on June 12, 2017, 08:27:34 PM
Tyerone's  post  got me thinking ...


".......  I'm too afraid to use the o-ring (not really).  If left in accidentally gun no go bang!  Bad thing if needed for SD......."

 since the O-ring seems a good way to cushion that hammer ,  why not  attach 2 or 3 inches of  some sort of brightly colored string to that O-ring. You can still use it without forgetting it in there . Just an idea

buy the red silicone o-rings and you'll easily see if you left it in
Title: Re: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: inspector1999 on June 12, 2017, 08:49:36 PM
When I bought my SP-01 from Cajun Gun Works, on the phone he recommended using the O-ring trick. I figured if they did the work to my gun, I should listen.  As for forgetting it, I did and couldn't figure out why the gun wouldn't go bang at the range. Now I start and end each dry practice session putting the O-ring back in the container it came in.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

Title: Re: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: Sean1 on June 28, 2017, 11:06:49 PM
I used Tok's rubber Oring method and this home made dry firing contraption I put together. At roughly 1350 cycles per hour is much more comfortable than dry firing by hand
The hammer spring is a spare one that I cut a little bit to lighten the pull load on the motor.

https://youtu.be/sIWkwJIQfyo


Title: Re: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: Tyerone on June 28, 2017, 11:22:45 PM
I used Tok's rubber Oring method and this home made dry firing contraption I put together. At roughly 1350 cycles per hour is much more comfortable than dry firing by hand
The hammer spring is a spare one that I cut a little bit to lighten the pull load on the motor.

https://youtu.be/sIWkwJIQfyo

Tee hee hee!  With all that dry fire practice, I bet your robot  can really produce tight groups at the range!  Have you noticed whether the robot learned not to flinch?
Title: Re: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: Sean1 on June 28, 2017, 11:30:37 PM
Between a steady pull and the gun locked in a vise, it's bulls eye every shot  ;)
Title: Re: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on June 29, 2017, 12:15:16 AM
A good thread. Book marked but commenting to follow.

I use the o ring. I have some snap caps but it is very clear how worn in the rubber part becomes from being struck by the firing pin. I do keep them around though for other practice (dead rounds and what not).

Just like one would always check to make sure a gun is loaded before carrying, add the o ring check into your process.
Title: Re: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: rifmon on July 05, 2017, 07:30:55 PM
I rarely dry fire but when I first got my 75b I did a lot of it.  The first thing that broke was my trigger return spring. I purchased the music wire trs from Cajun and felt I was good to go. But then I broke my trigger retainer pin and in the process my firing pin jammed. 

Off to CZ because nothing would release that firing pin.

I got it back and immediately replaced the firing pin and firing pin retaining pin with Cajun's tool steel fp and their roll pin.  Problem solved right?    Uh no... additional dry firing broke my replacement trigger return spring!   Ugh.  So I ordered two Cajun music wire  trigger return springs. 

Let's just say I go lightly on dry firing and if I plan to dry fire more than once, I use the o-ring. 

I was surprised the music wire trs broke that time.  I guess it's possible there is a slight burr on my frame somewhere that shortened the life of mine but I have many rnds downrange since then and it's been fine. 
Title: Re: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on July 05, 2017, 08:00:08 PM
I rarely dry fire but when I first got my 75b I did a lot of it.  The first thing that broke was my trigger return spring. I purchased the music wire trs from Cajun and felt I was good to go. But then I broke my trigger retainer pin and in the process my firing pin jammed. 

Off to CZ because nothing would release that firing pin.

I got it back and immediately replaced the firing pin and firing pin retaining pin with Cajun's tool steel fp and their roll pin.  Problem solved right?    Uh no... additional dry firing broke my replacement trigger return spring!   Ugh.  So I ordered two Cajun music wire  trigger return springs. 

Let's just say I go lightly on dry firing and if I plan to dry fire more than once, I use the o-ring. 

I was surprised the music wire trs broke that time.  I guess it's possible there is a slight burr on my frame somewhere that shortened the life of mine but I have many rnds downrange since then and it's been fine.

Have you tried calling David at Cajun Gun Works? This doesn't seem to be normal... I'd love to hear what David asks to trouble shoot and hear his feedback based on your specific pistol and circumstances. He and Scott are super good guys, they'll take care of you and then we all can be the wiser.
Title: Re: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: rifmon on July 05, 2017, 08:29:50 PM
I rarely dry fire but when I first got my 75b I did a lot of it.  The first thing that broke was my trigger return spring. I purchased the music wire trs from Cajun and felt I was good to go. But then I broke my trigger retainer pin and in the process my firing pin jammed. 

Off to CZ because nothing would release that firing pin.

I got it back and immediately replaced the firing pin and firing pin retaining pin with Cajun's tool steel fp and their roll pin.  Problem solved right?    Uh no... additional dry firing broke my replacement trigger return spring!   Ugh.  So I ordered two Cajun music wire  trigger return springs. 

Let's just say I go lightly on dry firing and if I plan to dry fire more than once, I use the o-ring. 

I was surprised the music wire trs broke that time.  I guess it's possible there is a slight burr on my frame somewhere that shortened the life of mine but I have many rnds downrange since then and it's been fine.

Have you tried calling David at Cajun Gun Works? This doesn't seem to be normal... I'd love to hear what David asks to trouble shoot and hear his feedback based on your specific pistol and circumstances. He and Scott are super good guys, they'll take care of you and then we all can be the wiser.

I believe you are referring specifically to the music wire TRS breaking?  Actually, no. I did not call them other than to order another one. I've spoken to one or both over the last two years on other issues. Once was for the stuck firing pin because I had already purchased and received their tool steel firing pin and the roll pin and I was trying to get the jammed one out. They were very helpful but both they and I concluded that sucker was STUCK!

Later, when the TRS broke, although I was surprised, I called only to order two and said nothing about theirs breaking. Actually, that was out of character for me as I would usually question something like that since I was surprised but for whatever reason that day; rushed, distracted? I don't know, I just ordered the two springs. I sure was glad I had already installed their floating retaining pin though!  So I take-it that this is out of the ordinary that it may warrant a all from me? It's been a couple of years since that one broke. 
Title: Re: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on July 05, 2017, 11:31:53 PM
I rarely dry fire but when I first got my 75b I did a lot of it.  The first thing that broke was my trigger return spring. I purchased the music wire trs from Cajun and felt I was good to go. But then I broke my trigger retainer pin and in the process my firing pin jammed. 

Off to CZ because nothing would release that firing pin.

I got it back and immediately replaced the firing pin and firing pin retaining pin with Cajun's tool steel fp and their roll pin.  Problem solved right?    Uh no... additional dry firing broke my replacement trigger return spring!   Ugh.  So I ordered two Cajun music wire  trigger return springs. 

Let's just say I go lightly on dry firing and if I plan to dry fire more than once, I use the o-ring. 

I was surprised the music wire trs broke that time.  I guess it's possible there is a slight burr on my frame somewhere that shortened the life of mine but I have many rnds downrange since then and it's been fine.

Have you tried calling David at Cajun Gun Works? This doesn't seem to be normal... I'd love to hear what David asks to trouble shoot and hear his feedback based on your specific pistol and circumstances. He and Scott are super good guys, they'll take care of you and then we all can be the wiser.

I believe you are referring specifically to the music wire TRS breaking?  Actually, no. I did not call them other than to order another one. I've spoken to one or both over the last two years on other issues. Once was for the stuck firing pin because I had already purchased and received their tool steel firing pin and the roll pin and I was trying to get the jammed one out. They were very helpful but both they and I concluded that sucker was STUCK!

Later, when the TRS broke, although I was surprised, I called only to order two and said nothing about theirs breaking. Actually, that was out of character for me as I would usually question something like that since I was surprised but for whatever reason that day; rushed, distracted? I don't know, I just ordered the two springs. I sure was glad I had already installed their floating retaining pin though!  So I take-it that this is out of the ordinary that it may warrant a all from me? It's been a couple of years since that one broke.

Yeah, that's definitely not normal for their reduced power TRS to break. They likely will ask some questions to see if it was just a bad spring or something. They may ask about the inside of your trigger or something, who knows how they'll try and diagnose it, but I'm curious to hear. Plus I think you should feel free to dry fire and I'm curious if we can get a solution.
Title: Re: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: rifmon on July 06, 2017, 06:01:53 AM
I will call and let them know. I'll explain that this was a long time ago though. They might be able to direct me to look at the sections that come in contact with the TRS. While there has not been a problem since my last purchase and instal, I've avoided putting it to the test since two breakages trained me to not dry fire a lot.

If I call today, I'll let you reply here on what they said.
Title: Re: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: rifmon on July 06, 2017, 08:37:38 PM
OK I called Cajun and spoke with Dave for a while. I explained about my to broken TRS's, one being their music wire TRS.

What he told me was very informative;

Dave told me that they spent a great amount of time identifying the cause of the TRS's breaking. He told me that even though their music wire spring is superior to CZ's stock spring, it will eventually break as a result of dry firing in DA mode. This is because of heat build-up in the spring from DA dry firing. SA dry-fire trigger pulls will not build up heat in the spring; only repeat DA dry firing will. He said that they've never encountered a SA-only CZ with a broken TRS. Also, live fire will not break the spring since only the first shot in each magazine in in DA.

Dave said that if you want to dry-fire using DA only, do it for a very limited amount of trigger pulls to avoid heat buildup in the spring. Additionally, if you decide to do so, have a spare spring not exposed to DA Dry-firing and swap it for CC, home defense or competition.

I felt reassured that nothing is wrong with my particular 75B. I also am glad I instinctively discontinued dry firing after I broke my second spring.

While most discussions regarding concerns of dry-firing focus on the firing pin and the firing pin retaining pin, the other hazard is breaking the trigger return spring. The use of an O-ring or snap caps will not prevent that.

My suggestion is to limit DA dry firing and if you want to do prolonged dry firing, use the O-rings and dry fire in single action.
Title: Re: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: delphidoc on July 06, 2017, 08:54:46 PM
That's very informative. Thanks for looking into it and reporting back.
Title: Re: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on July 06, 2017, 09:09:11 PM
That is very informative! I dry fire a decent amount but my DA dry fire is in short segments. Might be why my RP-TRS has never failed. Thanks for calling and sharing!
Title: Re: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: rifmon on July 06, 2017, 09:40:16 PM
You're welcome! Thanks for the the suggestion to call. It was an unresolved mystery for me. Now resolved!

I ended up talking to Dave about getting better sights too. haha... Stock sights not the best for my eyes. That topic is in a different thread.
Title: Re: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: gwvt on July 06, 2017, 11:09:02 PM
I find this interesting also as I sometimes will fire a whole mag in DA by decocking after each shot. I guess I won't be doing that anymore.
Title: Re: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: jrice on July 09, 2017, 11:09:17 PM
When I bought my SP-01 from Cajun Gun Works, on the phone he recommended using the O-ring trick. I figured if they did the work to my gun, I should listen.  As for forgetting it, I did and couldn't figure out why the gun wouldn't go bang at the range. Now I start and end each dry practice session putting the O-ring back in the container it came in.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
What size o-ring works best? Thanks...Jerry
Title: Re: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: delphidoc on July 10, 2017, 12:52:07 AM
It doesn't have to be a precise size.

I use #83.

There's an old thread jere where a guy used BrassCraft #0561 from Lowe's- it's got 85bb on the picture. Look at reply #19 on this thread:
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=61125.15 (http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=61125.15)

Somebody else here posted about using red o-rings so you don't accidently leave them in place. This one here should work:
https://www.amazon.com/106-Silicone-O-Ring-Durometer-Width/dp/B000FMWNGM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499662192&sr=8-1&keywords=106+Silicone+O-Ring%2C+70A+Durometer%2C+Red%2C+3%2F16%22+ID%2C+3%2F8%22+OD%2C+3%2F32%22+Width+%28Pack+of+5%29 (https://www.amazon.com/106-Silicone-O-Ring-Durometer-Width/dp/B000FMWNGM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499662192&sr=8-1&keywords=106+Silicone+O-Ring%2C+70A+Durometer%2C+Red%2C+3%2F16%22+ID%2C+3%2F8%22+OD%2C+3%2F32%22+Width+%28Pack+of+5%29)

Title: Re: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: Joe L on July 10, 2017, 08:23:12 AM
David's explanation for the TRS failures being limited to multiple DA dry fire fatigue and heat is consistent with my experience.  My 75B is SAO and has close to 50k rounds and some dry fire and I haven't had a TRS break yet.  I may have replaced it once during the last six years, seems I launched and lost one some time ago, but no breaks and I am not concerned about it.

Keep in mind that all it takes to create a stress riser in the spring is to nick it with some pliers while trying to assemble it. 

I guess the TRS could be shot peened to improve their fatigue life like I had to do in four valve Ford racing engine valve springs.   :) :)

Joe
Title: Re: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: gnumadic on July 10, 2017, 10:23:23 PM
A forum member was giving away excess O-rings the other month (can't remember who it was but thanks!). When I went to the range I forgot to remove the O-ring, which resulted in me pulling the DA trigger several times before I realized what had happened. That said, the firing pin did still move enough to dimple a cartridge primer (did not discharge). Should I be using a thicker O-ring, or is this still a good way to protect the firing pin?
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4258/35038921943_fb6aa4579d_c.jpg)
Title: Re: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: delphidoc on July 10, 2017, 10:38:57 PM
If it didn't set off the primer then the firing pin didn't stop on the firing pin retaining pin #57, so the o-ring did its job. What's cool is if you use a laser cartridge for practice at home the firing pin will still set off the laser, with the o-ring in place.
Title: Re: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: Pops1911 on July 12, 2017, 09:24:24 PM
O Rings, Schmoe Rings!  LOL  Get your good snap caps and dry fire away!  You'll be a better shooter in the long run.  Learn how to jerk the trigger without moving the firearm.  You'll be good to go :-)
Title: Re: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: asimonp79 on July 16, 2017, 04:09:16 PM
Hello,
Well  Ihave been dry firing CZ TS 40 for 3 years on 5 days per a week.
it was about 200 clicks that I did during that training.
That is 1000 clicks for a week.
5 years and 52 weeks each is 260000 clicks in 5 years- I have ruined hammer+ sear
It worth it. 
Title: Re: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: Grizzlie on July 20, 2017, 04:46:52 PM
I bought snap caps, then dummy rounds with rubber/plastic-like inserts (I have this feeling that the primers on snapcaps get dented and lose their buffering ability whereas the polymer material used in dummy rounds seems to hold up better).
Maybe ideally it would be to use dummy rounds with polymer primers 'and' the oring.
This way you get the weight of real bullets, can practice tap-rack-bangs with seemingly more realistic feedback, and the o-ring gives additional 'protection'.

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk
Title: Re: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: puddintame on July 26, 2017, 08:43:35 AM
what size O-ring do I look for at my local hardware store?
Title: Re: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: Tok36 on July 26, 2017, 01:14:56 PM
what size O-ring do I look for at my local hardware store?

I just eyeball them but i think #83 is mentioned allot around here.
Title: Re: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: rifmon on August 02, 2017, 10:00:45 PM
Don't overlook the TRS as discussed earlier in this thread.  It is an often overlooked hazard of dry firing I've come to learn;  the hard way! At least on the 75 platform.
Title: Re: What's the consensus on dry firing?
Post by: shaneb1 on August 03, 2017, 12:42:09 AM
depends on the model. CZ states that a P0 7 can be dry fired for practice. However an older model CZ 52 would eventually brake. Look up the model and manufactures model. Or ask some of the great minds here.