The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => General Firearms Discussion => Topic started by: copemech on July 07, 2017, 12:42:56 AM
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I have this THANG that I would like to massage just a bit, but not quite sure what to do. 70 series GC
(http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab205/copemech/20161226_0004271.jpg) (http://s864.photobucket.com/user/copemech/media/20161226_0004271.jpg.html)
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I can help. But if you look on youtube, there is a plethora of information about 1911 trigger jobs.
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
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Wow. That rear sight is really cranked up there. I don't think I've ever seen one (never owned one, but shot a couple over the years) cranked up that high.
How long have you had that one?
Even though I don't carry mine these days (not a Gold Cup, just regular Colt 1911 types) I'll always smile and appreciate them when I see/handle one).
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Read up on the subject and watch some of the better vids like from Wilson Combat and such. You WILL want to look into purchasing the proper fixtures for the job to do it right and not trash good parts. 1911 trigger work is really not that hard but contrary to what you may see posted and video taped by some you cannot properly stone sears and hammer hooks freehand.
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To answer your question directly, David/schmecky.
If they're still in the archives, he posted some of things done with his 45.
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I would bet on that gun there's not much needed to be done on the hammer hooks or sear. You can polish the sear by hand if it needs it but just polish. If what you want is to change the pull weight that can be done by slightly bending the sear spring but don't go under 3.5 lbs.
Billy
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Yes, I did some trading aroun not too long ago and picked this up. It is an iconic gun in my thinking, the first factory race gun, and built back when things were hand tuned by the factory smiths. It has little use and is in original condition. I do not want to screw it up!
Well, most all here know just how 1911 triggers are the gold standard to which it seems all other things are compared, and this one is quite good, although I may have come to actually prefer my custom SP-01 Shadow at a short crisp 2.5 lb and am now spoiled !
The Colt measured right at 4.0 lb and seemed to have only slight sear creep, although a bit more than my CGW racehammer perhaps, and quite honestly I was/am just not sure just how good one of these things gets! Another thing I will mention is that I have not yet taken it apart.
I will get back soon to finish this, gotta run now.
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Yes, I did some trading aroun not too long ago and picked this up. It is an iconic gun in my thinking, the first factory race gun, and built back when things were hand tuned by the factory smiths. It has little use and is in original condition. I do not want to screw it up!
Well, most all here know just how 1911 triggers are the gold standard to which it seems all other things are compared, and this one is quite good, although I may have come to actually prefer my custom SP-01 Shadow at a short crisp 2.5 lb and am now spoiled !
The Colt measured right at 4.0 lb and seemed to have only slight sear creep, although a bit more than my CGW racehammer perhaps, and quite honestly I was/am just not sure just how good one of these things gets! Another thing I will mention is that I have not yet taken it apart.
I will get back soon to finish this, gotta run now.
Just be a careful when bending the sear spring. Don't bend it too much or you'll have problems with the hammer following through (not locking back). It will usually happen when you soft rack the slide. As mentioned earlier, unless you're gonna get new internals (sear, disco, hammer) I wouldn't recommend going lower than 4lb or 3.5lb trigger pull.
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Just be a careful when bending the sear spring. Don't bend it too much or you'll have problems with the hammer following through (not locking back). It will usually happen when you soft rack the slide. As mentioned earlier, unless you're gonna get new internals (sear, disco, hammer) I wouldn't recommend going lower than 4lb or 3.5lb trigger pull.
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Yes, OK and thank you Pewpew and Billy, so it seems 3.5 is the magic number I suppose.
I have owned 1911's for decades, yet only in recent years have I ventured into this realm. I have watched a few you tube videos on all this stuff, yet it has been a while, and the very specifics of match type tuning are few and far between. My prior guns were defense pistols and had heavier triggers, although still good and well polished.
If I understand as much as I think I do, the required trigger force on these will come from a combination of the trigger return and the sear spring force, and as stated and confirmed here by others, I was afraid to go too light on the sear, and not unlike a CZ, in this SA pistol the hammer spring would likely have minimal effect on total pull weight.
I doubt I can reduce the trigger return tension much, so the rest would indeed have to come from the sear spring, and I will likely just have to carefully find the sweet spot I guess, although I would feel better if I had more experience here on sort of pushing the edge, or practical limits. I really needed that target range~!
As far as the sear creep goes, I do not plan on changing much here either. Although as I stated I have not yet taken it apart for inspection, I suspect that just a few swipes with my fine diamond hone to relieve the back angle on the sear will be all it needs. This once again is just a picky preference, primarily because I like shooting long distance from a rest, but in any practical shooting one would normally pull right through this without notice. Minor refinement. My buddy who is a speedshooting champion thinks I am getting carried away, he said leave it alone and shoot it more. It is a race horse, not a safe queen! O0
I will say this, although I have only ran 50 rds WWB through this gun, it does remind me that it is throwing out a lot of lead! I must be getting old and soft shooting too much 9mm target loads.
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IF you don't already have a trigger pull gauge I would suggest you pick one up. They take the guess work out of setting up the 3 leaf spring.
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Copemech, I USED to mess with 1911's, but the only one I have now is a Desert Eagle full size. I've done work on maybe half a dozen. I usually put some aftermarket parts in them from EGW and Wilson Combat to get a nice trigger pull our of a service pistol. On my own personal 1911, the barrel fitup wasn't good enough for a match gun, so I went to the 97B"E" and haven't shot the 1911 since.
I am thinking the pistol you have has a 4 lb trigger because the bullseye match rules limit .45 pull weight to a minimum of 3.5 lbs. Of course, you can go lower. I would just buy a Wilson Combat spring and experiment with that and leave the Colt parts in place unmodified or in a baggie. If it were mine, I would just replace the spring and adjust to get it where you want it, making very small changes as described above. Then shoot it a bunch. If it doesn't have many rounds through it, it may smooth out some and be "just right". You aren't starting with a production run 1911, and that is a good thing. (Some inexpensive 1911's are terrible, just terrible.)
Joe
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CGW is capable of doing a full range of 1911 work including precision match barrel fitting. In fact, we are in the process of building one of the CZ 1911's we have in stock into a super shooter. We'll have pics later on in the year. We have already welded the barrels lower lugs for match fitting.
However, we are not currently taking any 1911 work. If you want the best work from the best 1911 smith in the USA, look up Bunker Arms. Brandan Bunker is the most talented 1911 guy we have ever seen.
His work is impeccable and the result is absolute perfection.
If you want do the work yourself, you MUST purchase the set of 1911 bibles by Kerry Kuhnhausen. These are the definitive books on the 1911.
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Wow. That rear sight is really cranked up there. I don't think I've ever seen one (never owned one, but shot a couple over the years) cranked up that high.
How long have you had that one?
Even though I don't carry mine these days (not a Gold Cup, just regular Colt 1911 types) I'll always smile and appreciate them when I see/handle one).
It does look high probably because it is! There is a rib on top of the slide.
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IF you don't already have a trigger pull gauge I would suggest you pick one up. They take the guess work out of setting up the 3 leaf spring.
Yes, and thank you. I have a great Lyman digital.
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CGW is capable of doing a full range of 1911 work including precision match barrel fitting. In fact, we are in the process of building one of the CZ 1911's we have in stock into a super shooter. We'll have pics later on in the year. We have already welded the barrels lower lugs for match fitting.
However, we are not currently taking any 1911 work. If you want the best work from the best 1911 smith in the USA, look up Bunker Arms. Brandan Bunker is the most talented 1911 guy we have ever seen.
His work is impeccable and the result is absolute perfection.
If you want do the work yourself, you MUST purchase the set of 1911 bibles by Kerry Kuhnhausen. These are the definitive books on the 1911.
David, you are no help at all!!!! Oh, you can do YOURS but you cant do0 MINE! :'(
You think I can read? Why should I read or buy anything when it is all on the internet for free!@ has to be TRUE! :P And has PICTURES!
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I had to work today so I had time to do my YouTube refresher on 1911 trigger stuff. I damit to being a bit torn over this gun. I love it and hate it. It is old, ugly and blue. I would have never gone out and bought this gun because it cost too much and was blue, and a beautiful blue at that which requires much protection and maintenance.
I am more of the ride'm hard and put'm away wet type, till next time. Stainless works better for me or a park finish or just good paint like a CZ! With this piece of history in original condition I feel almost obliged to retain its originality for the sake of posterity. Not sure just how many near perfect examples are out there, but?
Oh, I will shoot it, yet only on occasion.
I would really prefer a commander hammer and grip safety along with a LH safety for me, but that would be for me!
I think I will just get a Wilson mainspring for six bucks and keep the original, Look at the rest and possibly polish a bit while I tweak the Wilson, yet make no other changes. But trust me, if that stuff is not shiney when it comes out of the gun, it will be. O0 3.5 lb or so will be just fine. O0
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Congrats on the 1911. I am a fan as much as CZ's.
Rather than bending the spring I would slightly round off (smooth) the cut edges of the spring that contact the disconnector, also polishing the disconnector/sear contact surfaces to the spring. Same on the Front side of the Disco/sear that contact the back of the trigger bar. Light file on the spring edge and 2000 grit (against flat surface) on the disconnector. I Never use a deremel and a polishing wheel as seen on the internet...
I bet that alone will get you 1/2 pound off. Mostly just the spring edge if it is a new spring.
Meet the Twins
The 9mm is my latest creation (2017 birthday), 45 was built last year (birthday present Me to Me) both built and hand fitted parts (EGW, Excellent stuff and 20min away from me) including cutting the slide rails.
Both are 3.5in ramped bull barrel officers in Stainless.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170710/b21426907f67208f94f02d5388243ab3.jpg)
and honestly the very first shot out of the 9MM last Friday @ 10yards
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170710/aabdb9fc2774d40148fbeba61d9d9f62.jpg)
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Wow V-dub those are pretty darned awesome! Did I mention how I love STAINLESS! Now if I could just get that ckeckering on the front and back strap of my CZ75 range queen!
And thank you for the suggestions. When I disassemble this thang for inspection I may just do all that, kinda depends upon findings. I know these were pretty much hand tweaked, but still a production gun.
It is like going back in time by 40 years. Not a lot has changed here over time, but possibly we have learned a trick or two. I do admit that I love the Dremel now. Back in the old days my fingers would get really sore! O0
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Best part on the Stainless builds is No finish coating or bluing to do or wear off. All parts are SS including the Barrels. Weather-Proof! I did put the brushed finish on the sides of the frame and slide and can be easily touched up if scratched. Front strap checkering was done on the frame already, does match the back MSH perfectly for a very nice grip. Another Full size I built got a polished SS slide. Yes, Sanded and polished by hand.
No Dremel, seriously... 2000 grit on a piece if glass for the flat surface. You will see that the surfaces more than likely were not flat. And forgot, drag the spring contact edges on the 2000 after filing. You will see the wear on the used spring as the blue is gone. Get under the little hook tab too. You'll see when you in there.
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The Mark IV Series 70 Gold Cup National Match pistols design incorporated a sear depressor and a collet barrel bushing. Instead of properly fitting the sear and hammer as was done in the previous Colt Gold Cups, a depressor was incorporated into the Series 70s to prevent the hammer from "following". The collet bushing was used to eliminate hand fitting the barrel/barrel bushing that was done in the earlier Gold Cups.
Most Mark IV Series 70 Gold Cups that have been fully disassembled no longer have the stamped steel depressor and depressor spring since they're very small and extremely hard to reinstall. As for the three fingered collet barrel bushing, they tend to break so having a spare on hand is a good idea.
Based upon my 40 years of shooting properly modified Mark IV Series 70 Gold Cup National Match 45s your rear sight is indeed very high.
And yes I know a little about 1911s including trigger work.
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The Mark IV Series 70 Gold Cup National Match pistols design incorporated a sear depressor and a collet barrel bushing. Instead of properly fitting the sear and hammer as was done in the previous Colt Gold Cups, a depressor was incorporated into the Series 70s to prevent the hammer from "following". The collet bushing was used to eliminate hand fitting the barrel/barrel bushing that was done in the earlier Gold Cups.
Most Mark IV Series 70 Gold Cups that have been fully disassembled no longer have the stamped steel depressor and depressor spring since they're very small and extremely hard to reinstall. As for the three fingered collet barrel bushing, they tend to break so having a spare on hand is a good idea.
Based upon my 40 years of shooting properly modified Mark IV Series 70 Gold Cup National Match 45s your rear sight is indeed very high.
And yes I know a little about 1911s including trigger work.
WoW, that's some good stuff right thar! I was aware of the split barrel bushing, not that they were necessarily prone to breakage.
The depressor and spring is a bit Depressing! I looked it up on the Numrich parts list and sure enough! So what the heck do you do? Just take it out? Obviously it would be just another spring force to overcome adding to total pull force. Could it work well if used and be preferred in a light mainspring application? I am not sure, and still not sure exactly how it works based upon the poor illustration. Thoughts and suggestions appreciated here.
Another question, on the Wilson Combat website, they list their mainspring and a Colt mainspring, stating that they use IT in their custom builds. Any ider which to get here?
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vwpieces, what frames are you using?
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The Mark IV Series 70 Gold Cup National Match pistols design incorporated a sear depressor and a collet barrel bushing. Instead of properly fitting the sear and hammer as was done in the previous Colt Gold Cups, a depressor was incorporated into the Series 70s to prevent the hammer from "following". The collet bushing was used to eliminate hand fitting the barrel/barrel bushing that was done in the earlier Gold Cups.
Most Mark IV Series 70 Gold Cups that have been fully disassembled no longer have the stamped steel depressor and depressor spring since they're very small and extremely hard to reinstall. As for the three fingered collet barrel bushing, they tend to break so having a spare on hand is a good idea.
Based upon my 40 years of shooting properly modified Mark IV Series 70 Gold Cup National Match 45s your rear sight is indeed very high.
And yes I know a little about 1911s including trigger work.
WoW, that's some good stuff right thar! I was aware of the split barrel bushing, not that they were necessarily prone to breakage.
The depressor and spring is a bit Depressing! I looked it up on the Numrich parts list and sure enough! So what the heck do you do? Just take it out? Obviously it would be just another spring force to overcome adding to total pull force. Could it work well if used and be preferred in a light mainspring application? I am not sure, and still not sure exactly how it works based upon the poor illustration. Thoughts and suggestions appreciated here.
Another question, on the Wilson Combat website, they list their mainspring and a Colt mainspring, stating that they use IT in their custom builds. Any ider which to get here?
What's your Gold Cup's trigger's pull weight? Is the pull "crisp" regardless of its weight? If so, changing the mainspring in search of a lighter trigger pull may not be necessary... or may not work. If the pull is crisp adjusting and/or replacing the sear spring may be the way to go.
A little more history... in addition to the depressors and collet barrel bushings, my two late 1970s Series 70 Gold Cups came with 19# Main Springs and 14# Recoil Springs to cycle the commercial 185 grain "Target" loads of the day. (I'm told some came with the standard 16# Hard Ball springs.) The depressors were removed, the sears and hammer legs properly reworked and the recoil springs were replaced with 18.5# springs and Wilson Shok-Buffs. The main springs remained in both pistols for many thousands of H&G 200 grain/950 fps rounds. However, after the second collet bushing broke, the barrels were re-cut straight and proper barrel bushings fitted.
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I've never seen many of the mark IV bushings break and have known some to last many thousands of rounds. So I wouldn't worry too much about the bushing or the trigger and just shoot it. Most folks shooting Gold Cups would send them off to be accurized and that would include a new barrel and bushing before anything broke.
I would put a few thousand rounds through it before I did anything. That way you will know a bit about what you would want to do with it.
Billy
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I've never seen many of the mark IV bushings break and have known some to last many thousands of rounds. So I wouldn't worry too much about the bushing or the trigger and just shoot it. Most folks shooting Gold Cups would send them off to be accurized and that would include a new barrel and bushing before anything broke.
I would put a few thousand rounds through it before I did anything. That way you will know a bit about what you would want to do with it.
Billy
I've also have heard the same thing. Unfortunately wasn't as lucky. Both my Colt Mark IV-70 GC bushings broke. The first at approximately 7K and the second at 9K rounds. The slide stops lasted a bit longer. My brother's Colt Mark IV-70 GC slide stop broke at 3.5K rounds. Mr. Wilson supplied the new stops for all three GCs.
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The wisdom that was imparted to me a couple years ago was that if your Colt with the fingered bushing breaks a finger, the pistol will continue to break that same finger on future bushings. It is a manufacturing defect with the pistol, not the bushing.
YMMV
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I've never seen many of the mark IV bushings break and have known some to last many thousands of rounds. So I wouldn't worry too much about the bushing or the trigger and just shoot it. Most folks shooting Gold Cups would send them off to be accurized and that would include a new barrel and bushing before anything broke.
I would put a few thousand rounds through it before I did anything. That way you will know a bit about what you would want to do with it.
Billy
I've also have heard the same thing. Unfortunately wasn't as lucky. Both my Colt Mark IV-70 GC bushings broke. The first at approximately 7K and the second at 9K rounds. The slide stops lasted a bit longer. My brother's Colt Mark IV-70 GC slide stop broke at 3.5K rounds. Mr. Wilson supplied the new stops for all three GCs.
I had a Gov. Model Mark IV That I lost count of the rounds put through it mostly G.I. ball but it did finely break. I sent it off and had it fitted with a new barrel and non mark IV bushing. Nothing else broke on this gun with many M-27 cans run through it. I keep a spare slide stop but don't believe I've ever broke one. Back in the 70s Colt wasn't using MIM parts and the surplus parts weren't either.
Billy