The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => General Firearms Discussion => Topic started by: Chicago Dude on December 03, 2017, 12:31:13 PM
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I've been around guns all my life. Mostly because I started hunting as kid. I am 61, and given how long I am with the guns, when it comes to handguns, I SUCK !
I have few shortcomings (mostly with my trigger finger), I don't practice enough, and I am much better with the shotgun than I'll ever be with the handgun.
Above all, I would imagine like most of you old farts my age, I am set with my ways of firm believes (another shortcoming) what is good, what's not good, what I like and what I dislike. To explain better what I mean that I suck with the handgun : If you are grouping from (say) 25 ft in 3 inch radius, I am grouping them in 12 inch. Do I worry much about it ? No. I am sure, if need to, I am able to put all of my bullets in someones chest from 20 ft away, while most of you could also have head shots. Shortly : No Mozambique drill for me.
That being said, when it comes to handguns, two things are important to me. Gun must have a hammer, and gun must be metal.
Yes, I am aware of all beautiful and "super reliable" striker fired guns. Yes, I am aware of that Austrian company (that I'd rather die than buy any of their guns), and yes I am aware that strikers "will take over". Again : old (stubborn) fart, set on his ways, who also happen to suck when it comes to shooting handguns 8). Great combo, eh ?
Now that you have little better understanding, what person is typing this, lets move to the title of this post.
The only plastic gun that I would trust my life to :
HK P30sk
Small (one of the best CC guns out there), extremely well done (their inside fit and machining beats CZ's by the mile), and shoots like crazy (literally shoots like full size gun). Ergonomics of this gun are shoulder to shoulder to any CZ if not better.
This is the only gun that I would carry, next to my PCR.
I have my eye on one Sig, but that is another story for another times.
Cheers.
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I would put reliability right up there as #1 when it comes to grading handguns (or any gun, for that matter). Accuracy is a close second. You can get both, in the same gun, I've managed it several times over the years.
As for fit to my hand. Several have been great, some okay, some just trash can poor (Glocks). Probably one of the most comfortable I've ever had in my had was the M&P FS pistols and one was unreliable and not that accurate while the other one was reliable, but even less accurate than the other one. Didn't get it all in one package with either of those.
Glad you like what you like. Leaves more CZ's for the rest of us.
Oh, most of the time my EDC is a CZ P07. Settled on that one after spending several years working through Browning, Glock, XDM, and M&P handguns, metal and polymer framed. Got lucky. Reliability and accuracy and feels good in my hand all in one package.
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My # 1 is still PCR (and that one is made by CZ).
Interesting that you mention reliability. If anything HK is famous for is just that - reliability.
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Ben Franklin stated the following: Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to learn.
Confirmation Bias is one of those things that no longer allows a person to learn, and closes a lot of doors.
If you like the HK, or all metal guns, with hammers, there is certainly nothing wrong with that. HK makes some great guns.
However to be intentionally close minded and unwilling to learn closes a lot of doors, that if actually explored, you might find some exceptional platforms that you might really enjoy.
I recall 20+ years ago my dad thought that ARs were not particularly accurate. That was until I showed him what a precision rig, with a top quality target scope could do at extended ranges. It really opened his eyes. Now in his late 70s, I bet he owns a dozen or more ARs, some of which were built by me as dedicated long range rifles. All for a guy who was willing to learn.
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Thanks.
Your post makes sense.
If you read my post you will notice my shortcomings that I mentioned, and that I am aware of.
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I haven't had a chance to shoot an HK P30sk.
I also like guns with a hammer that are DA/SA, but the composite frames don't bother me that much.
I haven't found "my" favorite CC handgun that I "love". I have a couple that I carry, but there is certainly room for improvement. Maybe that HK could be "the" one? Maybe I will find out some day.
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So far I have two to carry that I really love.
My # 1 is PCR. Being metal makes it little heavier, but it's perfect for winter time with the jacket or coat over it.
HK P30sk, is little lighter and is perfect summer carry gun.
I am in process of getting Sig P229 Legion in 9mm.
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I recall 20+ years ago my dad thought that ARs were not particularly accurate. That was until I showed him what a precision rig, with a top quality target scope could do at extended ranges. It really opened his eyes. Now in his late 70s, I bet he owns a dozen or more ARs, some of which were built by me as dedicated long range rifles. All for a guy who was willing to learn.
I would have agreed with him after shooting three different M16A1's in the Army years ago. For over 25 years I had absolutely no need or desire to own an AR15. Then I bought a "cool" one. A little XM177 clone. You know, the 10.5" barrel with the 5.5" (or so) flash suppressor on it. That little bugger is more accurate than any M16A1 (with 20" barrels) that I shot in the Army. Now I have a butt load of AR's of varying barrel lengths.
Sometimes our opinions are molded by one (or two) bad experiences.
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My personal confirmational bias happened with 3rd Gen Smith & Wesson autos.
At the time I entered LE, Glocks were just entering the scene, and S&W dominated the LE world. Glock was considered the "new thing". That said, I was a serious 1911 guy at the time, and it took a while for me to switch from 1911s to Glocks.
Then I went to a place that had DAO .45s (Model 4586) as issued sidearms. I was also an agency firearms instructor. I truly detested the 4586 due to the fact that almost everybody had a hard time shooting it well, and it made the lives of agency FIs difficult. That manifested itself into a bias against all 3rd Gen S&Ws.
Fast forward a good number of years, and having played with some S&W with traditional DA/SA actions that not only have great actions, but are exceptionally accurate, I recognize that I did not give the rest of the series a fair shake due to exposure to one particular model.
These days one of my favorite handguns is actually a 4506, traditional DA/SA. It is a tack driver, and I really enjoy both shooting and carrying it.
My own confirmational bias delayed such enjoyment for about 15 years or so!
(https://i.imgur.com/kjqpnCM.jpg)
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Thanks for sharing your experience.
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I empathize with the posts above.
I carry a Sig that is very accurate and reliable as the sun going down, but it's just not as comfortable as I would like.
I found the perfect carry pistol that felt perfect, carried perfectly for me, was as accurate as my Sig +; but it was a total disaster for reliability.
To this day, nothing I try matches that first iteration 9mm Remington R51 that was falling apart as I shot it. If they had re-machined the original version properly (to CZ Custom/CGW standards) I would be carrying that pistol now no matter the cost. The all metal, internal hammer, extremely low bore axis and locking block design was amazing. :(
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I've tried many and handled them all but for me the CZ PCR is the perfect all around handgun.
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I empathize with the posts above.
I carry a Sig that is very accurate and reliable as the sun going down, but it's just not as comfortable as I would like.
I found the perfect carry pistol that felt perfect, carried perfectly for me, was as accurate as my Sig +; but it was a total disaster for reliability.
To this day, nothing I try matches that first iteration 9mm Remington R51 that was falling apart as I shot it. If they had re-machined the original version properly (to CZ Custom/CGW standards) I would be carrying that pistol now no matter the cost. The all metal, internal hammer, extremely low bore axis and locking block design was amazing. :(
I was one of the unwitting R51 "beta testers" as well, and agree with your sentiments. Seems to me a textbook case of the bean counters creating ruins where a possible niche market "win" could have been created. Penny wise and pound foolish, Big Green's reputation continues the downward swirl....
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I read the title and I was sure you were going to say Glock 19 ... Another site I'm fairly active on is SiGforum ... I truly believe there are more Glock fanboys there than there are SiG fanboys ... There is a Glock thread that started in 2009 and is over 450 pages ...
Anyway, your honesty is refreshing! I'm a firm believer that whatever you carry you should shoot well and it sounds like you're competent with it ... More power to you sir!
I think I can call you sir because I'm only 60!
I've carried lots of different pistols in my time as I'm sure you have and I hope that you have been as fortunate in your life as I have been. I have only pulled my carry one time and my assailant said "Oh, sorry man" turned and ran ... That was over 25 years ago.
My daily dress is white shirt & slacks, and due to a medical condition I can't wear a belt so I have to wear suspenders which further limits ability to carry ... I had been carrying a Ruger LCP but wanted to have a 9mm so I switched to a Glock 43 ... While not much bigger, is much heavier ... While looking around, not wanting to go back to the LCP (to be honest I wasn't very good with it but it's better to have a gun and not need it ...) anyway I saw a new Colt Mustang XSP and I really like it! It's not nearly as harsh as the LCP even with Hornaday Critical Defense ammo ... and if I take my time I can put 5 out of 6 rounds in a styrofoam head at 40 feet.
I do like having a Glock 19 in the console, but what I really enjoy shooting is my Kimber Stainless Gold Match, my tuned SiG TACOPS, my HK Tactical, Mark23 & my recently acquired CZ TS ... Only the HK's are plastic and all are hammer guns and yes I'd trust my life to any one of them, but I don't usually have them with me.
First rule of a gun fight, have a gun.
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Thanks Tony !
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when it comes to handguns, two things are important to me. Gun must have a hammer, and gun must be metal.
Yes, I am aware of all beautiful and "super reliable" striker fired guns.
The only plastic gun that I would trust my life to :
I agree with you a pistol must have a hammer and be made of metal. If polymer pistols are truly 'super reliable', why does Gaston the Bufoon Gluck's company inform agencies that adopt their product(product because it is a disposable tool, not a firearm), that they recommend total replacement after only 5 years of "service" in a holster?
"The only plastic gun that I would trust my life to".....none
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Good post. I started with a passion for Sigs (still do), then to H&K, and now wanting my first CZ.. most likely a PCR or P01 Omega
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Hey Im new here but I wanted to share a piece of my experience in I may. I am a Viet- vet, and I carried on my own volition, a Llama Especial 45 1911 style pistol thru two tours, and as little thought of as, are these pistols, I relied on, without failure of, my old iron heavy pistol thru enough situations,It never failed me. it was on my return stolen, and Ive wept ever since. Next I have had for a while a llama micro mini 380, which has a reputation for not being reliable, but to the contrary, this one is a perfect fit, small power I know, but a perfect carry gun short on capacity, and bullet size, Yes. Still I have found it too to be reliable, and very accurate, and I shoot it a lot using Hornady self defense ammo. Ill reiterate that I would again, not part with it for any reason. Its my favorite, and most accurate carry. Hold one sometime and see, their amazing, and I have a bit more than a few guns. Its just a shrunken 1911, but perfect for my hand and its familiarity is not just comforting, its Paramount!
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The plastic gun I trust with my life in glock 27. Rotate it with my p01.
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Lets' everyone remember that while we all have different tastes and likes/dislikes, never disparage another persons choice. Or, as the Joker said in Batman, "Never rub another mans rhubarb!"
I can't stand Glock, not because they are garbage by any means, but because they don't fit me worth a darn. I qualify Expert or Distinguished Expert with one every year, but they feel like a brick. Good solid reliable pistols that I just don't like. HK, always wanted a vP70z, figure that one out. Had bad experiences with USPs, but those were first gen USP, 99.99% issues fixed since then. SIG, expensive. but you get a well built solid sidearm.
Para is spot on for me - one of the best CCW pistols ever built in my mind is the PCR, just all around perfect pistol, but even I have moved on to the P-10C for now, as our tastes and wants evolve through experience...which is why I am REALLY interested in a Ruger EC9S for a pocket BUG...;)
]
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I've been around guns all my life. Mostly because I started hunting as kid. I am 61, and given how long I am with the guns, when it comes to handguns, I SUCK !
I have few shortcomings (mostly with my trigger finger), I don't practice enough, and I am much better with the shotgun than I'll ever be with the handgun.
Above all, I would imagine like most of you old farts my age, I am set with my ways of firm believes (another shortcoming) what is good, what's not good, what I like and what I dislike. To explain better what I mean that I suck with the handgun : If you are grouping from (say) 25 ft in 3 inch radius, I am grouping them in 12 inch. Do I worry much about it ? No. I am sure, if need to, I am able to put all of my bullets in someones chest from 20 ft away, while most of you could also have head shots. Shortly : No Mozambique drill for me.
That being said, when it comes to handguns, two things are important to me. Gun must have a hammer, and gun must be metal.
Yes, I am aware of all beautiful and "super reliable" striker fired guns. Yes, I am aware of that Austrian company (that I'd rather die than buy any of their guns), and yes I am aware that strikers "will take over". Again : old (stubborn) fart, set on his ways, who also happen to suck when it comes to shooting handguns 8). Great combo, eh ?
Now that you have little better understanding, what person is typing this, lets move to the title of this post.
The only plastic gun that I would trust my life to :
HK P30sk
Small (one of the best CC guns out there), extremely well done (their inside fit and machining beats CZ's by the mile), and shoots like crazy (literally shoots like full size gun). Ergonomics of this gun are shoulder to shoulder to any CZ if not better.
This is the only gun that I would carry, next to my PCR.
I have my eye on one Sig, but that is another story for another times.
Cheers.
I am glad you like the P30 series because I thought their triggers sucked eggs. Even after a Bruce Gray trigger job it blew...
Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
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I still need to try the HK P30... I absolutely hated the VP9. The USP45 was a dream to shoot too, but the grip was just too big for my hands.
I absolutely loveeeeee my P07.
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I have ridden motorcycles and done so for decades under one credo.
It's not what you ride
.....it's that you ride!!!!
I will not tolerate nor endorse a Harley rider who rants on about Jap Crap or crotch rockets nor will I listen to a close minded Japanese made motorcycle rider talk down a Harley or how for the same price they could have two of their favorite flavor of the day bikes.
I also shot handguns with the same mind set. The fact that so many want take away the right we all enjoy weather, its metal or polymer, weather it is hammered or not, means nothing as long as you enjoy what you choose - and are skilled and practiced in all aspect - beginning with safety and ending at the same spot.
I to am merely 60 years old so I may not have the high ground of my senior member the OP. I do however go into every bike show looking for something I like about every bike I see and every gun show or range I go to I find finding what I like about a gun makes shooting a better sport. One that we should not have to defend against others in our sport, our main choices in my humble opinion should be that we choose to participate.
That being said I carry all winter a PCR, all metal, custom handles, hammered and in an awesome leather holster. However in the summer I carry a Kahr CM9 small accurate reliable and easy to hide. I compete with a few different guns and truth be told I own one or two that I just play with or shoot what I make through it. It is easy to jump on a bandwagon and say you wouldn't this or cant like that but I bet $100 if someone was attacking your child or coming at you with a machete and there was a loaded hand gun with no hammer made in central Europe on the table you would in fact trust your life to it and do so without batting an eye.
We all have shortcomings and admitting them makes them shortcomings except we know we have them too. Unwillingness to learn from our shortcomings is not a sign of age, it hampers our ability to learn. If someone is ok with that so be it. I hope to learn something everyday.
Sorry I felt compelled to say what was on my mind here....which is one of my shortcomings.
RCG
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I've been around guns all my life. Mostly because I started hunting as kid. I am 61, and given how long I am with the guns, when it comes to handguns, I SUCK !
I have few shortcomings (mostly with my trigger finger), I don't practice enough, and I am much better with the shotgun than I'll ever be with the handgun.
Above all, I would imagine like most of you old farts my age, I am set with my ways of firm believes (another shortcoming) what is good, what's not good, what I like and what I dislike. To explain better what I mean that I suck with the handgun : If you are grouping from (say) 25 ft in 3 inch radius, I am grouping them in 12 inch. Do I worry much about it ? No. I am sure, if need to, I am able to put all of my bullets in someones chest from 20 ft away, while most of you could also have head shots. Shortly : No Mozambique drill for me.
That being said, when it comes to handguns, two things are important to me. Gun must have a hammer, and gun must be metal.
Yes, I am aware of all beautiful and "super reliable" striker fired guns. Yes, I am aware of that Austrian company (that I'd rather die than buy any of their guns), and yes I am aware that strikers "will take over". Again : old (stubborn) fart, set on his ways, who also happen to suck when it comes to shooting handguns 8). Great combo, eh ?
Now that you have little better understanding, what person is typing this, lets move to the title of this post.
The only plastic gun that I would trust my life to :
HK P30sk
Small (one of the best CC guns out there), extremely well done (their inside fit and machining beats CZ's by the mile), and shoots like crazy (literally shoots like full size gun). Ergonomics of this gun are shoulder to shoulder to any CZ if not better.
This is the only gun that I would carry, next to my PCR.
I have my eye on one Sig, but that is another story for another times.
Cheers.
I'm new here too (reply 17). First of all, I love that someone with the name "Chicago Dude" is posting about his EDC choices. I live up in God's country, 100 miles north of you and I well know the obstacles you face in carrying, so kudos!
Secondly, I totally respect the metal hammer thing. I love my CZ75 and my 1911. Those are guns that will be handed down through generations I hope.
So all that said, I carry a Shield .40 as my EDC. Not pretty. Not fancy. But I've not had a failure in around 3000+ rounds. Super easy to carry and accurate enough within practical ranges. I don't pretend that it's an heirloom piece. I'll wear it out and then destroy it.
Okay, that's out of the way. The other gun I just picked up is the P-09 tactical. I love this gun! Accurate! Light! Huge capacity! I need to run about 1000 more rounds through it to be sure, but I may replace my Shield with this gun. Sure, it's bigger, but it's pretty light. I can short load and it won't weigh much more than the Shield.
Or maybe I'll just glue the suppressor on and leave it as my nightstand gun. We'll see.
But that HK looks like a sweet EDC. You have me thinking that maybe I need to consider it as my Shield replacement. I'll give one a try. So thanks for your impressions. Much appreciated!
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I've tried many and handled them all but for me the CZ PCR is the perfect all around handgun.
I agree. But, I also have a bias for the Sig 239 in .40. It was my first carry gun and I still shoot it as accurately as anything I've owned. I alternate between the Sig and the PCR. Both are decockers, both are steel over alloy with hammers and are 27 oz. That said, the PCR gets carried the most.
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Might be strange to some by I have a rotation of EDC?s. Some days it?s a cz clone c100 in either 9 or 40. Or a SR9c, or a 4 in Xd Service in either 45, 40, 9, XD mod 2 subcompact 45. Finally PPS M2. My true cz 75 compact or cz75BD in 40 seldom ride along. All in my stable are reliable or they don?t stay. Rationale is based upon the price entry point and what would happen after the fact if I was unfortunate to have to use it..
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Might be strange to some by I have a rotation of EDC?s. Some days it?s a cz clone c100 in either 9 or 40. Or a SR9c, or a 4 in Xd Service in either 45, 40, 9, XD mod 2 subcompact 45. Finally PPS M2. My true cz 75 compact or cz75BD in 40 seldom ride along. All in my stable are reliable or they don?t stay. Rationale is based upon the price entry point and what would happen after the fact if I was unfortunate to have to use it..
Unfortunately the reality of the situation is that we have to balance how much we value our life over how expensive of a weapon we are willing to lose in such an unfortunate event.
I'm worth every penny I can scrape together to get whatever I carry.
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Might be strange to some by I have a rotation of EDC?s. Some days it?s a cz clone c100 in either 9 or 40. Or a SR9c, or a 4 in Xd Service in either 45, 40, 9, XD mod 2 subcompact 45. Finally PPS M2. My true cz 75 compact or cz75BD in 40 seldom ride along. All in my stable are reliable or they don?t stay. Rationale is based upon the price entry point and what would happen after the fact if I was unfortunate to have to use it..
Unfortunately the reality of the situation is that we have to balance how much we value our life over how expensive of a weapon we are willing to lose in such an unfortunate event.
I subscribed to that thought as well but as already stated, ?All carry options in my stable are reliable? or they don?t stay. After that the next tier question goes to my statement. Finally, they all need lovin. ;)
I'm worth every penny I can scrape together to get whatever I carry.
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Well I'll add to the last few posts with this.
There are very reliable handguns that will fit most any budget and that's a good thing. That said if I was inclined to drop 4K on a custom 1911 and I was confident in the gun and my handling of it I would absolutely carry it.
If you are right in your use of deadly force in most cases your firearm will be returned after the investigation. If your use of deadly force is questionable and you go on trial well the cost of your handgun is the very least of your worries.
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I trust my polymer Rugers (SR9c, LC9sPro & LCP) and polymer CZs (P-07 Duty, P-07, P-09 or P-10c). They have all been 100% reliable for me.
The only polymer pistol I couldn't trust was the Glock 41. Had to send it back to the mothership for repair. Tested it after the repair (worked for 100 rounds) then traded it to someone who was aware of the history.
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Striker fire is ok but I prefer the DA/SA. I also like the plastic framed stuff strictly for the weight advantage. Until last week the only plastic DA/SA I had was FNP. Last week I traded for a plastic frame witness in 10mm. I have yet to shoot it but plan to soon.
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Polymer or Steel....................it's all good!
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/549/medium/Striker_Midsize_9mm.jpg)
Left to Right
Taurus 24/7 Pro
Canik 55 TP-9V1
S&W Sigma SW9VE - with mild trigger work
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/549/medium/MAP1_FS_MS.jpg)
Armscore/Tanfoglio MAP1 Full Size and Mid Size 9mm Steel Pistols with Hogue Cz75 Grips and Mec-Gar AFC Cz75B 17 round Magazines
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I carry my CZP-10C every day with complete confidence.
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I have a HK USP Expert .45 that I absolutely love. I too am not a huge fan of polymer-made handguns but I love my Expert. That and my Shadow 2 are just a step above everything else when it comes to reliability, accuracy, etc. The main thing for me that puts my Shadow 2 a notch above the Expert is the ergonomics. The Shadow 2 melts into my palm while the Expert is like holding a large plastic block.