The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Ammunition, questions, and handloading techniques => Topic started by: Zigzag on January 12, 2018, 07:32:46 PM
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Just got a CZ 75 shadow2 and have had a little trouble with coated bullets. They are seated at 1.09 and are from eggelston. A few get stuck and don't eject. Never had that issue with my beretta and haven't run any factory ammo through it yet. Any suggestions?
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Don't eject after firing, or before when you manually rack the slide?
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What is the recipe?
Powder grains, OAL of 1.09, what weight projectile?
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What do they push test at?
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Is it only with coated Bullets?
We need details. We need details, We need ..........
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Everybody wants to help, but none of us are psychic.
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Ziggy -
? First things first...
Welcome Aboard !
? On to your question... It doesn't matter what your OAL is if the barrel can't accept it. CZ freebores in the 9mm guns tend to run a little tight, so the chambers do much better with RN and SWC than any type of conical ogive (like an XTP). So the first thing to do is read this....
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=34225.0
Then, realizing that lead bullets typically run larger diameter than plated or jacketed bullets means you're going to need to remove some of the diameter of the "test bullet" so its dia is closer to 0.355". This is so that you can truly differentiate between sensing the bullet's ogive position versus sensing the bullet's diameter.
The diagrams in the thread above will make things much clearer for you.
? Realize that "coating" the bullet doesn't make it magic. As with ANY lead bullet, "fit is king". So you're going to need a bullet that is at least 0.001" larger than the bore in order to avoid other side effects of shooting lead bullets. This is far more important in 9mm than it is in, say, 38 Spcl or 45ACP becasue the velocities are higher. But we can talk about this more.
Hope this helps. ;)
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3.6 tite group on the 124 grains and 4.0 on the 115. The diameter of both are .356 and all are seated at 1.09. I don't remember offhand where I had the crimp set it still where I set it for extreme plated. I've only had this CZ a few weeks and haven't run any factory ammo thru it yet. These coated bullets have truncated point and I think that's part of the issue and I realize this gun has tighter fit to it but I'm still learning the ins and outs of hand loading
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Read the post on how to determine max OAL for a pistol that Wobbly. You can't just load to whatever and expect it to work with all bullets in all pistols. 1.09 is too long for your pistol with those bullets. It's that simple.
I do not personally remove anything from a coated lead bullet to check max OAL. If you can't find a fired case that will allow it to slide in and out easily enough (I'm talking about the method in the post Wobbly linked to here), you can also make a dummy round (size, expand, seat, crimp, but no primer or powder) make it so that it's too long (you already know 1.09 is too long, so you could start there), plunk it in your chamber, shorten it, plunk it again, shorten it, and so on and so on until it plunks and spins freely. If you shorten it .003-.005 at a time, there will come a point where it plunks all the way in, but when you try to spin it, it will drag a little. That would be when you're almost there. Once it is short enough to spin freely, that's your max OAL, and knock off another .010 - .015 to account for normal variation in loading. Don't be surprised if those have to be loaded down to 1.08, 1.07, 1.06, or maybe even a couple hundredths shorter than that. I've seen some people lately with truncated cone bullets that had to be loaded down to 1.04.
Good luck. ;)
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Here's a cartoon to help explain....
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/N5faoP4cEPACqHhT9n1wlAioE1x0GATSZoQhqezlwsIKoOVZh2cOmT8w9l66rw8wgzCpBn19X6MZYgq3R1ppgGb5G4kGiu91JMidjDtFuIAyrRpjxJp7hHm4hCV7E0KNDJcLmVL5r6EC6IVQFyQY5fm4dfDN1ZmfZfjKBJvYG8QtP-IUsKnFA25-cxgTOFutbYHXUk2Fu90RhqZizWfKlUO0x3kEqSBL_vcE25Z_LxWuiEWpriWvz2gAWXhh6b1x0k7uNale_5ELs6qj7K2SUDGxFgTSP8E7FFcbch976MnFQsW4Vn0EX8VLxcgTQjLFwsJO-nR198ic0tNNkIQ3K54XUX2DLT5qcU6IX3cZRZr97tqKQrsNFx-7stKNpmaBzWfLkgfo2k1Jjug8osL3aXXJeSGCaHLDeJJjsTBDrlKHgQWpg0XY1KrGTAYyrtE_7lXd4phXmYJIqWzwNJsc3_uPGbFby17G63hkpLVQgrdrJVQZ_or9r1HDFYq19ZPjUktoDHmVNR8rAEtRLK6DE-cTc1g_JLOON0AMFIYAaklv1bPYfFe1eLoqOKLoyADDtDmWfn3uS8OWLEU7UNi2REv7IoajGv_Ye6snOO0=w960-h720-no)
CZ intended for you to be shooting a bullet ogive shape like the example in the center. The RN misses the lands of the rifling AND misses touching the freebore.
You said you are using a "truncated" ogive, and by that I guess you mean a truncated cone, like an XTP. These are problematic becasue the full dia protrudes out of the case. The full diameter then might collide with the beginning of the rifling, as in the left hand example. AND with a lead bullet will probably "hug" the freebore as well, which is why I advised you to get the bullet's diameter down to 0.355". Only then you will you be able to differentiate between freebore "hugging" (not so bad), and colliding with the rifling (very bad).
Additionally, becasue the 9mm incorporates a tapered cartridge fitting into a tapered bore, the diameter of the taper crimp becomes one of the items that is extraordinarily important. That's "extraordinarily important" as in mission critical, must-have information, do not pass GO, do not go any further until you verify that the taper crimp is indeed 0.379" or smaller. This becasue sloppy taper crimp work mimics the bullet hitting the rifling and you cannot see inside the chamber to tell which it is. Therefore the only way to go forward is to rule it out by knowing exactly what the taper crimp diameter is.
So you need to stop right here and read this...
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=78873.0
Some parts of reloading are Art, and some are Science. This part is Science, so you must have your numbers right or it's not going to work. No guessing allowed.
Hope this helps. ;)
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...I don't remember offhand where I had the crimp set it still where I set it for Extreme plated.
? I contend that the taper crimp is set so as to satisfy the requirements of the barrel, not the bullet. Therefore, once it's set, it's set for all bullets. But you still have to know exactly what that setting is.
? This information should be recorded in your reloading notebook. How are you going to know if your Taper Crimp Die wanders away from its current setting if you don't record the setting ?
;)
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? I contend that the taper crimp is set so as to satisfy the requirements of the barrel, not the bullet.
Agreed.
I personally DO adjust it a little based on bullet diameter, but it's not necessary.
SAAMI spec is .380, and .379, even .378, is large enough for any diameter bullet you might be using while you're learning. You wouldn't hurt anything to set it to .378 and be done with it during the early stages of your reloading journey. ;)
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When loading the Blue bullets - I had to back off on the crimp slightly to stop it from cutting through the polymer coating.
Has anybody else seen that?
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Blue bullets are undersized for Lead. You were ovecrimping.
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Blue bullets are undersized for Lead. You were over-crimping.
Most probably.
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Thanks to all for their help. I had loaded most of these before I bought my CZ and had no trouble with my beretta 92 but with the diagrams and all I will be going back to .355 from here on.i do record everything in my loading log but didn't have access to it in the last post and the few I shot and had trouble with were seated too deep wich I think caused a bit of a bulge in the casing anyway those are gone. I'm still knew to reloading (about 4500 rounds so far) and about 50/50 between plated and coated. The diagrams provided are a wealth of info and will be referring to those working up my next loads for the CZ and I always stay with starting load amounts. I've gotten everything where I wanted things for my 1911, 45 but the CZ has added a new leaning curve.
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Ah, well I wish we'd have known half that when the thread started.
Here's the rule you need to understand.... Not every bullet offered can be reloaded for every gun. Some bullets simply don't fit some guns. All this becasue gun chambers vary so much. So even if you can use the same bullet in 2 different guns, you might end up with 2 different OALs (or seating all short to fit the "tightest chamber").
Instead of guessing, why not allow us to recommend some really fabulous bullets that are KNOWN to work well in CZ chambers ?
My favorites are...
Precision Delta 124gr JHP........................1.100" OAL
Zero 124gr JHP......................................1.100
Rocky Mtn Reloading 124gr JHP................1.060
Berry Mfg 124gr RNHB (plated)................1.140
Berry Mfg 115gr RNHB (plated)................1.125
Missouri Bullet Co 130gr RN coated lead....1.130 (listed under 38 Super)
PD is the least expensive jacketed bullet you can buy, if you buy 2000
All the RMR bullets ship free
I like to buy Berry from RMR or TJConevera
MBC has some great prices on their "bundles", the most to fit in a single Flat Rate box
;)
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Thanks Wobbly. I had pretty much decided to go with precision delta for my next purchase and I've learned a lot over a couple of posts and the diagrams really help. Some of my posts were done on the road so I didn't have access to my logs. The fellow that runs my local range and is my reloading source commented that my CZ is made to tighter to tighter tolerances and would take a little experimenting so I'll be trying things out in small batches using what I've learned in this forum.
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A lot of times people with 1911's will pay big money for a "target barrel". That's basically what the CZ comes with from the factory.
It's not so much that the area holding the cartridge case is a smaller diameter, those minimum dimensions are set by SAAMI. No sir, when people say "tight barrel" what they really mean is that there's not much freebore before the rifling starts. That freebore is what limits your OAL, and may also limit your bullet selection.
So you really have to be careful when people give you reloading advice, becasue what works great in a Glock, or Ruger may not even be possible in a CZ. Here's another cartoon to explain....
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/sAUuIAw1X61tAQa89scxTCBMx6c-x62MAEt1ZO7lERnqIxTwL-Xb6DOE450aXDXCfNIvV-6hSf4xxPo2OEUO3vv0YoyfNKWSziWhhUpMynhnI1vawVt1Zllg_kgNV5zlhixVPmqMcmFAunwzPH5XdOy3yF-XjjT8TIJ9PVudLvDkFogxwW1txB3a9ZKw_FyDaFxM-YJAdCOF3aqaVYx1Cyb2_B4Yv8y3Nhs7Fy31fTaGnYgMLjSAJp6jX9gUOpuU_xvAdGQk4Qw9r6JFVmTwMNAmOcwp5MPJCs8xIpvL2CcapVYK3puhpRVhp2at9SDp-coTTcjzIFFlPhqpuk59A1BZGZbG7ZuQNP6HE9x9LrsMqqBqeEiStsa5MzgxWBdELSVvDRzaGxqwZcc9rb5djolFV73fT2kkzai0z2KKhF3dezoYcDoJ3wLXgeQWq700LlcKC1sQsiCy31Rnqr2_3T7Udm5Gxnh43HZfCrYLXMT_uC8ZFAdYhAW7pE-Rxuboa1bCWAZna3MM-UQFOoIFvRx4IK86vkHkIM0fCE0S6rlSt34_oES3YDZFjmHvYcYpes2xz-uNLBrTks-Ux9sfOyJNfDmnioWBWXQASpk=w576-h432-no)
So you need to be careful how you filter in-coming info. Most reloaders have never even had to think about, or much less actually do, half of what we're talking about. Doesn't mean they're idiots, it simply means it's not part of their experience or process. They're probably not even aware it exists.
Probably the nearest thing is the Croatian made Springfield XD series. That's another eastern European pistol with very similar chamber traits.
Hope this helps. ;)
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Though they aren't on Wobbly's list, I noticed tonight that Acme has again changed the profile of their 124RN. These look more forgiving for loading longer than the previous profile.
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Zigzag, .355 is standard for 9mm jacketed. .356 is standard for lead or coated lead. Many guns will shoot with more precision with .356 jacketed or .357 lead. Some shoot .358 lead for best accuracy. When it comes to accuracy, bullet to barrel fit is huge.
So don't get locked into "I'm going to use .355." You limit yourself when you do that. And it's less than ideal for lead or coated lead. There's nothing wrong with loading shorter. If the bullet is good for the pistol, just load shorter. ;)
It's just something to factor in. It's not harder or risky somehow. It's not really even something you have to take extra consideration for. If you're employing the proper methods of determining max OAL for your pistol, it's the same process no matter what the diameter bullet.
As to crimp diameter, if you're trying to get as narrow as possible, there might be an adjustment to make between bullets of different calibers, but if you simply went with .378 or .379 (.380 is the actual SAAMI spec), that would cover your bases for whatever diameter bullet you had. It's when you get down to .377, .376, .375 crimp where you need to start worrying about crimping differently for different diameter bullets.
Your plan to use Precision Delta will work well for you. Great bullets. Just saying you don't need to limit yourself. And by avoiding the issue, you're potentially denying yourself valuable experience. ;)