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GENERAL => CZ Gunsmithing => Topic started by: Underwhere on February 23, 2018, 09:43:44 AM

Title: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 23, 2018, 09:43:44 AM
I'm going to have a lot of fun with this. I have a Pre-B that I'm going to attempt to modify and refinish. I certainly don't have the skills of SP01Shadow nor The Guardian but I'll give it a shot.
I'm not looking to give instruction in this thread, rather just post my progress and gather feedback and help if I run into issues or questions (already have). This is going to take a while too. It's not going to be done overnight. This may be a month or two. (or more)

I'm hoping to be as detailed as possible so people can follow along and maybe attempt this themselves if they have the gumption to do so.

A 1994 Pre-B transitional.

The Plan for the frame and slide:
Round the trigger guard
Relieve the trigger guard
Upsweep the beavertail and countour it
Bevel the magwell
Drill for a full length guide rod
Strip the frame
Lightly polish the frame to bring it to a smooth surface
Rust blue it

The plan for parts:
CGW Pro Kit (pieced together with individual components due to the differences in the Pre-B)
CGW Full length guide rod + 12 pound spring
CGW 10X barrel bushing
CGW EZ/D Sights
Grips - Undecided at this point
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 23, 2018, 09:47:02 AM
Day 1: Received the gun.
It's definitely dirty.
Has a roll pinned front sight.

Someone used a wood screw to secure one grip panel but the threads in the frame still look OK.
The other grip screw snapped the right side panel.
I guess that explains the clear tape on the grip.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180223/bc9a8ca7b4ab86ba3d29758eab7b0dfe.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180223/664bdd6552bd872f023a38c77961458d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180223/be547b6b99010e4c6421699986b96fba.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180223/22b8237c6aa8a698e61b0bca7afa9aa0.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180223/19913d26cf696531bca31397e2dca54c.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180223/53e34e5d6ab1d21b86e5c64572fbfae2.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Blackwatch on February 23, 2018, 09:49:47 AM
Wood screw!!  Not the best start! Look forward to seeing your continued progress...some bold changes you have planned  :)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 23, 2018, 09:54:04 AM
Day 1 - After the wife went to bed

I drilled for the full length guide rod using my SP01 Guide Rod for fitment. I tried to keep the hole as small as possible but due to the geometry differences I had to open it up. Originally it was 7/32 and I had to go to 1/4.

I 3D printed a jig for the rear and it worked perfectly. It's long enough to stabilize the 1/8 drill bit I used for a pilot hole and then I used a step drill from the front to open up the hold and give the front a nice light finished chamfer.

After the 1/4" hole the FLGR was still very tight. I'm going to order the Cajun once I get my full parts needs together and re-attempt with that. Hopefully the different geometry lends itself to a better fitment.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180223/475324730bc6adfb9387d11f2917aa30.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180223/c7c7a51e2dc84a43652f113fc2152c5d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180223/a4aac4dd516f9e34d411d8500c4ea724.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180223/3b6ed0907e2e6ff0d78948f9c28f8e42.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180223/f4e7a6b4f2a46001e02215143b9a4fd3.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180223/b21a2d7e25831b05d0992917217a696a.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 23, 2018, 09:59:41 AM
Day 1 - After the wife went to bed and after drilling the FLGR I was really motivated

I decided to start shaping the beavertail area.
I probably should have planned this a bit more but just started to hit it with a sanding drum and grinding bit. I realize the sanding drum is better.
I probably went a tad too far in some areas. (learn for next time) but it's not bad.
I need to finish up with some strips of sandpaper to get a proper radius and smooth everything out.

I used an SP01 as a guideline.


(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180223/36698dc6c8ba823d756b0eff7b3020aa.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180223/7444eaf0e837f291324c1033fd7b30c7.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180223/7d79041d3b1b409be2b523532fbad7fd.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180223/7285d0983b0dd564c725962416233f0e.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 23, 2018, 11:15:18 AM
What are people's thoughts on replacing springs on a 24 year old gun?

Everything? Already replacing the hammer, recoil, firing pin spring, trigger return with CGW parts.

I'm wondering about sear spring, mag release, slide lock lever, trigger bar return
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Vanniek71 on February 23, 2018, 12:28:03 PM
Yeah I’d replace them all. It will be worth the $$
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 23, 2018, 11:57:29 PM
Day 2 - tidying up the beavertail. Rounding the trigger guard. Beveling the magwell

I started cleaning up the tool marks left by my sanding drum with 220 grit cut in 1/4" strip per SP01SHADOW's posts.

Man my fingers ache!

The beavertail is 220 clean at this point. I'll need to hit it with 320 and 400 later.

Then I started with the squared trigger guard. I tried cutting as flat as possible and as even as possible with a sanding drum.

Then I gave it a bevel.
Then I hit it with 220 in strips to round it and get rid of tool marks.

Then I started on the magwell area. Haven't cleaned it up yet.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180224/50626ee718b595f676a2cc564073ef2c.jpg) (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180224/6c895a810dc976fe5ff1e800164b2d45.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180224/4c8bc78a40bb407aa60f13258cfa474d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180224/f4fd39e7eba875d995283493616fa57e.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180224/6ad12022027cfb2fc0bf2877c529fe45.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180224/95d10a0ca14946aad2bea8045f724019.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180224/4b51ce0c3afa7724864bde58f49eed5b.jpg)



(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180224/a67d0b8403adf6466feed83146c6f332.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180224/ccb5428a1a0ae752f389c1fecb4f523d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180224/36d8eb9de2baa2a6ef7a970128879da6.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 25, 2018, 12:34:21 AM
Day 3 - trigger undercut and stripping

I tried to clean up all my frame modifications. Beavertail, round guard, magwell...then I did my trigger undercut which took about 2 hours.

Everything turned out OK. Not great. Not perfect. It was OK.

Then I stripped the slide and removed the barrel bushing, front sight and extractor. Firing pin and plate were removed previously.

Then slide, frame, safety, slide stop, and extractor went into a plastic tub for Klean Stripping for 3 days.

While I wait I'm going to start on another few similar projects. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180225/78e8eb303f957e1d458391fb7cc7dcde.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180225/b8dc822000595b6e3aa2c539e9836036.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180225/48064702000dc06c3f72a253af41e7fd.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180225/3e493b4927713a893dbc72c4df1cdf53.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180225/75bf072ec2b50525f27f43bd5fb94276.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180225/2ca82144ee6d7bd8500708aac78dd53d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180225/34f20fb6aab6cf79379d96d6e3acb9f8.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 25, 2018, 10:21:31 AM
I test fitted the barrel in a CGW 10x bushing and it didn't fit. Upon closer inspection there seems to be a dent in the barrel.

I hit it with a slat stone just to see what would happen. Nothing.

The get-it-done in me just wants to lightly sand the crown area to smooth things out.

Thoughts?

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180225/af0b933d002f38c7cbcc021bb86ab220.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: rhart on February 25, 2018, 12:44:28 PM
I'm no expert, but my instincts would be take it real slow and try to fit the bushing after every few strokes and try to confine the stoning (I'd use a ceramic stone) to the deformed area only. As it got closer to fitting I'd check the fit more often - maybe after every light stroke.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 25, 2018, 01:56:31 PM
I'm no expert, but my instincts would be take it real slow and try to fit the bushing after every few strokes and try to confine the stoning (I'd use a ceramic stone) to the deformed area only. As it got closer to fitting I'd check the fit more often - maybe after every light stroke.
My thoughts as well. I wonder if this affects accuracy being at the crown.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 25, 2018, 01:59:17 PM
Day 4 - impatient

I checked in on progress with the stripper (paint).

The frame and slide both have areas where the polycoat is completely off. They also have areas where it is still stuck.

While I wait a few days I'm ordering a few supplies. More sandpaper, more acetone, evaporate, more nitrile gloves etc.

And while I wait for everything I'm going to start on my other projects.

Another pre-b and a compact (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180225/594799f5aa8dba802ec79f27e85762a1.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180225/3a9571e9a4ae0dfd560e60ecf1b09baa.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180225/e113d711455383a0177bbc25f56fbb4f.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Blackwatch on February 25, 2018, 02:45:12 PM
Fairly coming along!! BTW, like the stands to hold the frames upright.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 25, 2018, 10:23:47 PM
Note:
No need to attempt to strip the mag release, slide stop, safety or extractor. Those aren't polycoated but are blued. The stripper does nothing on these parts. (duh)

Also note: I believe temperature plays a factor in how quickly the Klean stripper works. The can suggests a well ventilated area between 65-85 degrees.
Right now it's in the low 30's so i think mine will take longer.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 27, 2018, 06:43:58 AM
My stripping is going slow. It's been 2 days and the finish is still on. I think it's because of temperature as it's still about 30 to 45 degrees out (I left it under my bulkhead)

So I guess I'll wait a few more days.
In the meantime I started to revitalize the edges on the controls which have been rounded over time and use.

I will try removing the existing blue with vinegar and then reblue with the rest of the gun.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180227/562e4af25125b847b39153038c24d80a.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180227/235250cce7918dcd44b4fa6f2d544307.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180227/30c9dd57f02b0b45bb80e892f317e9de.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180227/efa7bb691168713e28303355eb481e5f.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 27, 2018, 11:46:56 PM
Ugh. The paint stripper is doing nothing. No change in the last day. It has been a bit cold. Tomorrow may be much warmer so. I may try and leave it out in the sun.

I started another frame modification on a different cz while I wait.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: The Guardian on February 28, 2018, 12:02:58 AM
Ugh. The paint stripper is doing nothing. No change in the last day. It has been a bit cold. Tomorrow may be much warmer so. I may try and leave it out in the sun.

I started another frame modification on a different cz while I wait.

Usually when I strip the modern day polycoat on CZ I put it in to soak for 2 weeks before I even check it, even then there are the slide serrations and some other nooks & crannies that need "worked"......from what I've seen your doing a great job! We all have that "get it done" drive, patience really is your best friend though  ;)  Thanks for taking the time to post the pics, that takes some time too, much appreciated!
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: myczaccount on February 28, 2018, 01:04:14 AM
I have a 95 Pre B I ask wanna refinish. I’m a total noob at gun refinishing so I’m excited to see how yours turns out!
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 28, 2018, 10:35:53 AM
Usually when I strip the modern day polycoat on CZ I put it in to soak for 2 weeks before I even check it, even then there are the slide serrations and some other nooks & crannies that need "worked"......from what I've seen your doing a great job! We all have that "get it done" drive, patience really is your best friend though  ;)  Thanks for taking the time to post the pics, that takes some time too, much appreciated!

Good to know. I have my tub sitting outside today to hopefully heat up a bit in the sun. I may try and make some sort of insulated box for it with a non-flammable heat source to try and accelerate it. A chicken water heater comes to mind.

I have a 95 Pre B I ask wanna refinish. I’m a total noob at gun refinishing so I’m excited to see how yours turns out!
Me too!

One of the things I was struggling with on my first attempt at frame modification was how to get the curves perfect. It takes a lot of finesse and checking/re-checking. I did better on the beavertail on the frame I played with last night.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Mccian on February 28, 2018, 10:56:53 AM
Looking forward to see how this turns out Underwhere, sub'ed for sure........enjoy the process!
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 28, 2018, 11:57:50 PM
Turns out I was using the wrong stripper.

I was using Klean Stripper Premium.
I needed Klean Stripper Aircraft.

Sp01shadow and I have been in touch and he's given me some invaluable advice.

After 4 days in the Premium I have about 40% polycoat off but the rest was just not budging.

I swapped it into the Aircraft and after 4 hours I can already see a difference. I'm probably at 60% now. I can see how this stuff would remove everything in 3 days.

OK so now I'm optimistic again.

Note: none if this refinishing stuff is cheaper than just buying a new CZ75B so I hope those following aren't expecting a bargain miracle.

The Klean Stripper Aircraft is $40.
A container of Acetone is $20
Assorted sandpaper is probably $25
Containers for soaking and washing...
Separate container for boiling $20 to $50
Distilled water...

I could go on.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 01, 2018, 06:41:39 AM
You can buy a cheap stainless stock pot at Walmart. For soaking, I use semi disposable Rubbermaid kitchen containers, so far my wife hasn't noticed. There is some expense in getting set up, but I've done several guns including rifles since I started rust bluing. Aside from the time invested(which I enjoy), I've refinished quite a few guns and haven't exceeded the cost of even one cerakote job.
 A refurbished pre-b may not be much cheaper than a new B, but at least with a Transitional model, you'll have a tuned gun for not much more than the price of a new B. If you tune the B with Cajun parts, and add sights, the pre-b becomes even more attractive from a cost standpoint. That said, I think there's just something special about a nice pre-b.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 01, 2018, 07:11:51 AM
You can buy a cheap stainless stock pot at Walmart. For soaking, I use semi disposable Rubbermaid kitchen containers, so far my wife hasn't noticed. There is some expense in getting set up, but I've done several guns including rifles since I started rust bluing. Aside from the time invested(which I enjoy), I've refinished quite a few guns and haven't exceeded the cost of even one cerakote job.
 A refurbished pre-b may not be much cheaper than a new B, but at least with a Transitional model, you'll have a tuned gun for not much more than the price of a new B. If you tune the B with Cajun parts, and add sights, the pre-b becomes even more attractive from a cost standpoint. That said, I think there's just something special about a nice pre-b.
Yup. I still think it's worth it. Just didn't want people to be disillusioned in thinking this was a cheaper way to an awesome gun.

I am in an unfortunate situation where I have an induction cooktop at home. The cheap Walmart brand cookware has a stainless coating but is likely just aluminum. I have 2 of them when I bought them for other gun projects. My stove just beeped at them when I attempted to heat them up. I had to use my BBQ grill. I actually need more expensive cookware or buy a standalone burner.

Gun (w 1 old mag) + shipping + fee = 380
Blueing solution + stripper + acetone + sandpaper = 100

CGW parts = 453
Grips =?

Then there are your incidental costs and certainty your time which will amount to likely tens of hours. Hopefully by virtue if being in this forum most people would enjoy the time as I do.

As far as cerakote costs. Yes it's probably more expensive if you don't have a blasting cabinet and a media blasting setup. And an oven your wife will let you use.


Overall I'm having a great time. Gives me something productive to do when the family is asleep. I'm learning a ton as well.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 01, 2018, 07:34:22 AM
$453 in Cajun parts? What did you buy?

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 01, 2018, 07:37:55 AM
$453 in Cajun parts? What did you buy?

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
It certainly adds up quickly. I'm not posting prices but yea it's exactly 453.

(not including grips)

The most expensive parts are the barrel bushing, hammer kit, sights and disconnecter.
I've used a bunch of CGW parts before and personally I believe they are worth the money.

 (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180301/79af374a3c98c2cdaf662b2cf3dde188.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 01, 2018, 07:48:29 AM
For comparison purposes, just remember that aside from a couple springs, the parts list for a new B would be the same. That's  going to be a nice gun when you're finished!
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 01, 2018, 07:50:35 AM
For comparison purposes, just remember that aside from a couple springs, the parts list for a new B would be the same. That's  going to be a nice gun when you're finished!
Yes. The replacement parts cost only $19. It's no more expensive than upgrading a newer CZ.

This parts list will make the gun amazing provided I do my part. (I'm trying)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 01, 2018, 10:59:33 PM
Klean Aircraft did the trick. It's noticeably stronger and seems noticeably more dangerous as well.

Even walking near the container in a decently ventilated area stung my eyes.

Here is a slide that has been in the Aircraft stripper for 1 day. I used a light brush in it.

I'm confident in 3 days total there will be pretty much nothing left. Likely just 2 days but one more day for the heck of it. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180302/938bee0340387fd15c497485606c6448.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180302/17f0e06e8f373f033e790bb1b77e55ed.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: GMSPCR on March 02, 2018, 01:00:59 AM
temperature definitely makes a difference. I am using the aircraft stripper and put it out in the garage and it did nothing for 3 days. I moved it inside today and it is starting to work now.

How much did you take out under the beaver tail? It don't look like there is much in that area to remove without cutting through. Also how much did you remove under the trigger guard?
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 02, 2018, 05:19:57 AM
temperature definitely makes a difference. I am using the aircraft stripper and put it out in the garage and it did nothing for 3 days. I moved it inside today and it is starting to work now.

How much did you take out under the beaver tail? It don't look like there is much in that area to remove without cutting through. Also how much did you remove under the trigger guard?
That's hard to define. You have to go by shape.

Here is another beavertail I did yesterday. I think it's better than the first one I did.

I did this one by starting in the center and getting the center shape correct. Then I hit the edges and blended the edges. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180302/30808841e25b843fcea2803d108820ed.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180302/85cb6767f5f7f97958a678b03e5f557f.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 02, 2018, 11:07:28 PM
This is what 2 days in the Aircraft stripper looks like after a light brushing and rinse in water.

Still some spots left in the slide serrations and front sight roll pin pocket.

I'm sure 1 more day and the slide will be ready for the next step.


I do have to comment that this stuff is very nasty. If you've ever dealt with hydrochloric acid it seems very similar. Walking near this stuff will sting your eyes.

I used a respirator that particularly filters out vapor. Most do not so don't think wearing a dust mask will help you.

The 3m filter I used is 60926 but it does not make specific mention of methylene chloride which is the nasty stuff that Aircraft stripper produces..

3M actually suggests a fill face mask that covers your eyes as well. The vapor will burn them. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180303/1f5b02bd7a7dd8e5e16e8fbcf70e3070.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180303/0a730502849468d84af846039517d15e.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180303/3c5a6375d722a2dae3d58027b459e2c3.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 03, 2018, 02:49:26 PM
The frame and slide are out of the stripper. I got as much stripper off as I could then dunked in a nearby bucket of water and tried to remove more of it with a small brush. (careful not to get any on you from the brush spitting it)

Then off to the sink for rinsing and more brushing.

Took small parts and out them in my ultrasonic cleaner with white venegar. Hopefully that removes the bluing so I can reblue it all at the same time.

The frame and slide now sit in EvapoRust. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180303/81503deaf00d8c15b5407717cddc2ed6.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180303/4267dc6e033922d1aaa6725d3188758f.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180303/b8970cb2be06f90554e0171ff3ef2371.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180303/9e18ef0aad14de54ffea97b27737d7db.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180303/477e4e8590b2a42a62a93c32be063f85.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180303/8a62c99fa102f142bf4f50e8b02bc8cf.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 03, 2018, 02:55:16 PM
Evaporust will remove bluing more effectively than vinegar.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 03, 2018, 02:55:56 PM
Evaporust will remove bluing more effectively than vinegar.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
Going back down to my basement as I type...


Thanks for saving me the extra step. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180303/0c1ab66e805311ac1e4781648107d1f5.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 03, 2018, 06:11:58 PM
The frame and slide are out of the Evaporust.

Used power purple and a acetoned 0000 steel wool to clean it off.

Looked fine.
Then I hit it with a heat gun to make sure it was dry and I got almost an instant surface rust.

Anyone done this before : is this expected? (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180303/75aa4921f16cbde9bb4ad0edf1f6f409.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180303/d88587f106ae36b54ca0510b1564c126.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180303/a3e2e9adf14431e1c072051e50d2560d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180303/93ed8e4c234b4e634cc98a3c3d66067d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180303/393ee85fa5461829b8e9240dde0df59c.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 03, 2018, 09:42:42 PM
 The flash rust is normal depending on your location/relative humidity. That's because the Evaporust removes the oem phospate coating as well. If you leave the phosphate coating alone, it is quite resistant to rusting. In fact, if you have areas that won't take when rust blueing, it's likely because the phosphate is still there(slide serrations, etc.).
 While I'm working on mine I keep them in a gallon zip lock bag soaked with WD40. I buy the non-aerosol can since its cheap, will displace water, and wipes off easily. After the metal work is done it goes in the ultrasonic for several cycles, then gets a good acetone soak before applying rust blue solution.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 03, 2018, 10:32:20 PM
The flash rust is normal depending on your location/relative humidity. That's because the Evaporust removes the oem phospate coating as well. If you leave the phosphate coating alone, it is quite resistant to rusting. In fact, if you have areas that won't take when rust blueing, it's likely because the phosphate is still there(slide serrations, etc.).
 While I'm working on mine I keep them in a gallon zip lock bag soaked with WD40. I buy the non-aerosol can since its cheap, will displace water, and wipes off easily. After the metal work is done it goes in the ultrasonic for several cycles, then gets a good acetone soak before applying rust blue solution.
Got it. That makes sense.

I still have some spots of polycoat so I think I'm going to manually sand and then drop back in Evaporust to make sure the phosphate is gone.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 04, 2018, 10:29:58 AM
The factory blued parts are out of Evaporust and hit with steel wool.

I dropped the slide back in the stripper. There was poly still left on the ribs of the slide and some spots that would not come out of the roll marks... Even picking with the tip of a spare knife. So I'll redo it (stripper, clean, Evaporust)

You can see the polycoat on "e" and "r" of Luger(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180304/d52bc4daed63c2431e1aee80139909f1.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180304/b0edc31830b3b73e2c5885fc62ded538.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 04, 2018, 12:13:49 PM
The stripper isn't working anymore. The temps have dropped outside and the area it's in (bulkhead) is just a tad above freezing.

I made a makeshift insulated box and a lamp in it to raise  the temps. Hopefully that does it. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180304/4255670481d7a64dcf0027b19bab08ee.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180304/4c659ad5cef66a6b1fd619a56c86f8d0.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180304/8b35ce1b9162f8dd6c6f3081089a09df.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180304/af03188e644c7d9167b6d828d0cac1d9.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 04, 2018, 03:51:22 PM
I forgot I had an LED bulb which only puts out 9 watts. After 2 hours the temp hadn't changed.

I found a 60 watt in my master bath that luckily we missed when we switched to LED.

Now after 1 hour I'm at suggested temp. It'll take a while for the actual solution to reach that.

So while the slide sits in stripper, the frame is out of Evaporust and cleaned up ready for metal prep.

I think I got all the polycoat out of the lettering. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180304/f6abec32f43ce4657e2d7971ca9fbdd7.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180304/d2ad5554d43533a1e94b751268fa786c.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180304/935edc70f06e24986867f38ee7f8a138.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 04, 2018, 11:52:47 PM
My slide is sitting in a toasty 70 degree makeshift oven. Hopefully by tomorrow the slide rib will be free of polycoat.

In the meantime I 320'd and then 400'd my frame.

I did find a few areas with small pits but overall it was good.

I'd appreciate any comments here. I'm flying blind a little bit.

I did NOT polish any of the inside of the frame other than my beveled magwell and the walls that the hammer rides in.

My assumption is that I'm going to rust the inside of the frame as it is, only polishing for aesthetic purposes on the outside. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180305/cd7b191e513efd8747520910243d9fe1.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180305/b09782880a84fd66632bca613318e144.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180305/9e58f3172a86d37e0cb2edb1ed3e0b07.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180305/6dd15daef7340bc5ce6e45cbd610e0e9.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180305/0f9e3e0cea1efd45ad1dbd8464481390.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180305/17e5e0b1f62e3a3d5ab0a494f7add9b1.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180305/0c6a9c38c9e63b2ec46fc97125abf420.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 05, 2018, 07:18:03 AM
It may be due to lighting in your pics, but it looks like you have some random sand scratches on the frame. Even though the rust will generally fill 320gr scratches and make for a nice smooth surface, I always make sure to sand parallel with the slide rails. I use w/d sandpaper on a small block with a few drops of tool oil, turning and changing the paper frequently.
 After that I thoroughly clean in the ultrasonic on the hot setting and then dry with a heat gun or hair dryer. Then it soaks in a container of acetone for a day or so before bluing. After this, don't handle the parts w/o gloves on.
 For carding, I use 0000 steel wool that's been soaked in acetone. For hard to reach places, a soft stainless brush works well. After carding, the parts go back in the acetone bath for a short soak before applying the acid again.
 Your biggest issue right now will be getting a good coat of rust to form without a sweat box. If it rusts too slowly, put a few inches of hot water in a bathtub and hang the parts from the curtain rod. Close the door and hope the wife doesn't notice! With this method, you should be able to get a couple rust cycles per day. Don't worry too much if the finish looks uneven, it will look better after a few cycles.

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Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 05, 2018, 07:28:31 AM
Here are a few of my past projects. The 75 has been finished for a year or so, and is shot weekly(at least) for matches and practice. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180305/9f6883e591170893140324756481b235.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180305/798176ba44ff4631cad60857489626f7.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180305/90fc9498852034c833d97b320a89201d.jpg)

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Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 05, 2018, 07:31:49 AM
It may be due to lighting in your pics, but it looks like you have some random sand scratches on the frame. Even though the rust will generally fill 320gr scratches and make for a nice smooth surface, I always make sure to sand parallel with the slide rails. I use w/d sandpaper on a small block with a few drops of tool oil, turning and changing the paper frequently.
 After that I thoroughly clean in the ultrasonic on the hot setting and then dry with a heat gun or hair dryer. Then it soaks in a container of acetone for a day or so before bluing. After this, don't handle the parts w/o gloves on.
 For carding, I use 0000 steel wool that's been soaked in acetone. For hard to reach places, a soft stainless brush works well. After carding, the parts go back in the acetone bath for a short soak before applying the acid again.
 Your biggest issue right now will be getting a good coat of rust to form without a sweat box. If it rusts too slowly, put a few inches of hot water in a bathtub and hang the parts from the curtain rod. Close the door and hope the wife doesn't notice! With this method, you should be able to get a couple rust cycles per day. Don't worry too much if the finish looks uneven, it will look better after a few cycles.

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OK thanks for that feedback. I may try and lightly re-sand front to back.

Am I correct on not bothering to polish the inside of the frame?
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 05, 2018, 08:14:25 AM
Yes, no need to do any work inside.

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Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 05, 2018, 08:33:54 AM
Yes, no need to do any work inside.

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I really hope my 75 comes out like yours.
Else I'll have to revisit my cerakoting tools.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 05, 2018, 09:55:25 AM
I'm sure it'll look great. Which bluing solution are you using?

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Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 05, 2018, 01:01:01 PM
I'm sure it'll look great. Which bluing solution are you using?

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Mark Lee Express blue
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 05, 2018, 01:02:18 PM
I've used Laurel Mountain and Brownells. The Laurel Mtn is very forgiving.

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Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 05, 2018, 09:34:40 PM
The temperatures really helped. The slide is much cleaner now.

Back into Evaporust it goes.

Now back to re-sanding the frame.
I didn't wet sand originally. I will tonight.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180306/7a825ac352b37cca67ddc94f0133db82.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180306/2d37a87268a64404e88d80addc1884aa.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 05, 2018, 10:18:00 PM
And here's the frame wetsanded.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180306/6d55a37e7e78cb0609c6d532fbb82f28.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180306/5854b7f7666965a4c0a5e0e40dd2c51d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180306/54b4c79d91da77619fd6fde57952dc2c.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180306/8f78f412f38d9b3e6420ae13c475e1bd.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180306/a844b8b41bbc0268848a48b46eae345c.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 05, 2018, 10:20:49 PM
If you're using target sights, I'd suggest fitting them before the gun is blued. You may have to file down the top of the slide behind the rear dovetail for clearance. Some dovetails are cut a little deeper than others. There can be a surprising amount of variation from one slide/frame to another.

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Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 05, 2018, 10:23:20 PM
And here's the frame wetsanded.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180306/6d55a37e7e78cb0609c6d532fbb82f28.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180306/5854b7f7666965a4c0a5e0e40dd2c51d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180306/54b4c79d91da77619fd6fde57952dc2c.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180306/8f78f412f38d9b3e6420ae13c475e1bd.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180306/a844b8b41bbc0268848a48b46eae345c.jpg)
Looking good.

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Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 05, 2018, 10:25:56 PM
If you're using target sights, I'd suggest fitting them before the gun is blued. You may have to file down the top of the slide behind the rear dovetail for clearance. Some dovetails are cut a little deeper than others. There can be a surprising amount of variation from one slide/frame to another.

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Didn't think of that.

I'm using the CGW EZ/D sights which should clear the top of the slide.

I'll double check
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 05, 2018, 10:27:22 PM
If you're using target sights, I'd suggest fitting them before the gun is blued. You may have to file down the top of the slide behind the rear dovetail for clearance. Some dovetails are cut a little deeper than others. There can be a surprising amount of variation from one slide/frame to another.

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Didn't think of that.

I'm using the CGW EZ/D sights which should clear the top of the slide.

I'll double check
That's what I have on my transitional. I had to file the top of the slide, pretty much until the rib was gone. Yours may fit fine, best to know before you make it pretty.

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Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 05, 2018, 10:31:37 PM
 If your using a 10X bushing, I'd pre-fit that and the front sight as well. Seems like a pain, but it might pay off later.
 At a minimum, the front sight will likely need to be stoned a little to fit. On mine, the pin wouldn't go in so I had to deepen the channel in the 10X bushing. Each one of these guns is a little different, so you can't count on some parts dropping in 100%.

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Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 05, 2018, 11:05:31 PM
If your using a 10X bushing, I'd pre-fit that and the front sight as well. Seems like a pain, but it might pay off later.
 At a minimum, the front sight will likely need to be stoned a little to fit. On mine, the pin wouldn't go in so I had to deepen the channel in the 10X bushing. Each one of these guns is a little different, so you can't count on some parts dropping in 100%.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
Good to know.

I was going to blue the gun first, then put the 10x bushing in place because I figure I wanted the bluing protection around the frame as much as possible.

Maybe I'll rethink that.

Good to know the EZ/D may require some filing. I'll test fit tomorrow.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 05, 2018, 11:33:55 PM
You can install and remove the bushing, I checked with CGW and they said it won't hurt it. If the pin channel isn't deep enough, you'll have to remove the bushing anyway for filing. Drilling won't work, you'll end up elongating the pin holes. The bushing is very hard.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 06, 2018, 11:19:58 PM
I guess I got lucky.
Rear sight cleared just fine.
Bushing went in and holes lined up perfectly.

So on I went with the slide tonight. Out of Evaporust and hit with steel wool.

Then wetsanded for 2+ hours with 320 and then 400.

Im still weary of a few areas.

The rib on the slide. I tried using a toothpick to clear the ribs. Gunk does come out. I wonder if that's rust. Do I need to worry about this?

This serrations aren't the cleanest. I couldn't figure out a great way to wetsanded them other than to use my fingernail and shove it in a serration with the emory cloth underneath. That felt great.

The transition between rib and frame. For some reason I can't get rid of that black line.

Thoughts?

Do I need to keep going with prep or am I good?
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180307/8260990da12ebfe07e84976cf3502774.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180307/3a0b7f30765b3c64e5a6cfa94a035889.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180307/90ac45be74c4a44c8b3baaaddab1e057.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180307/ab22b99d82baf6103bb6ac4575ad8007.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180307/94620df6dcd1e30b85dd3d7144dd2ac9.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180307/3555680a10faf56824c75fbace6dc290.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180307/7e2ead8ec88aa5ec4070ac1d0c812727.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180307/8fd61e244af1b2184e85cca8a587caf8.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180307/d262a617c49bc125519e125d73333f44.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: sberres on March 07, 2018, 08:37:50 AM
How about a fairly soft wire end brush in a drill?  Could reach some of those ribs, ridges, and lines more easily than your fingernail?
 I'm working on as well.  It's got a rather odd greenish coat under the original enamel. In areas you can see the bare metal under it so it definitely looks more like a precoat, base layer rather than park. The stripper didn't touch it.
  There's enough nicks, dings, irregularities present that I'm going to sand it all down anyway. But I'll also bead blast it entirely and then resand the frame flats for bluing.
  Looks like you're doing great so far!  Bear in mind that last bit of advice about the bluing process and wearing gloves at every handling step. I'd also like to add that after the first rust application, if you see an area that seems to be pitted or that didn't get prepped quite as well as you'd thought. STOP!  Fix it, resand that spot, and then carry on. Sometimes the shine hides defects you've worked very hard to clean up. Rust bluing won't cover anything. It'll only accentuate what is there.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 07, 2018, 08:57:32 AM
How about a fairly soft wire end brush in a drill?  Could reach some of those ribs, ridges, and lines more easily than your fingernail?
 I'm working on as well.  It's got a rather odd greenish coat under the original enamel. In areas you can see the bare metal under it so it definitely looks more like a precoat, base layer rather than park. The stripper didn't touch it.
  There's enough nicks, dings, irregularities present that I'm going to sand it all down anyway. But I'll also bead blast it entirely and then resand the frame flats for bluing.
  Looks like you're doing great so far!  Bear in mind that last bit of advice about the bluing process and wearing gloves at every handling step. I'd also like to add that after the first rust application, if you see an area that seems to be pitted or that didn't get prepped quite as well as you'd thought. STOP!  Fix it, resand that spot, and then carry on. Sometimes the shine hides defects you've worked very hard to clean up. Rust bluing won't cover anything. It'll only accentuate what is there.
That greenish undercoat is phosphate, it has to be completely removed before bluing. I leave it alone on the inside of the gun, that way I don't have to worry about bluing inside.

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Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 07, 2018, 09:04:21 AM
How about a fairly soft wire end brush in a drill?  Could reach some of those ribs, ridges, and lines more easily than your fingernail?
 I'm working on as well.  It's got a rather odd greenish coat under the original enamel. In areas you can see the bare metal under it so it definitely looks more like a precoat, base layer rather than park. The stripper didn't touch it.
  There's enough nicks, dings, irregularities present that I'm going to sand it all down anyway. But I'll also bead blast it entirely and then resand the frame flats for bluing.
  Looks like you're doing great so far!  Bear in mind that last bit of advice about the bluing process and wearing gloves at every handling step. I'd also like to add that after the first rust application, if you see an area that seems to be pitted or that didn't get prepped quite as well as you'd thought. STOP!  Fix it, resand that spot, and then carry on. Sometimes the shine hides defects you've worked very hard to clean up. Rust bluing won't cover anything. It'll only accentuate what is there.

You know what. I have a dremel tool with a soft wire brush. I'll toss it in some acetone and hit it lightly. Good idea.
Finished up pretty late and probably wasn't considering all options.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: sberres on March 07, 2018, 09:31:47 AM
I wouldn't have thought a phosphate coating to look like a distinct layer. In some places it almost seems to sort of chipped and other places more scratched through. Like a poor plating.  Definitely anti-corrosive to a degree, and it is most certainly coming off.  I actually got sidetracked by this thread in going to ask that exact question!
  Is it sensitive to rust removers?  Any one type more than others, such as phosphoric acid that is found in some types vs muriatic found in others?  It really doesn't sand off too badly, either, and it'll probably bead blast as well. The last project I did turned out well but there was none of this remaining. That thing had no finish whatsoever apart from the badly browned, dinged, and pitted, well, all over.  One of these days I'll have to figure how to post pictures. 
  As noted by the OP, this is no ticket to a bargain bin super gun. We do it for the love of it and the CZ is a good, solid platform to start with that has enough parts support (both OEM and aftermarket) to make something special out of it. It's worth far more to me being something that is uniquely my own than I could ever recoup in a sale.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 07, 2018, 09:42:54 AM
I wouldn't have thought a phosphate coating to look like a distinct layer. In some places it almost seems to sort of chipped and other places more scratched through. Like a poor plating.  Definitely anti-corrosive to a degree, and it is most certainly coming off.  I actually got sidetracked by this thread in going to ask that exact question!
  Is it sensitive to rust removers?  Any one type more than others, such as phosphoric acid that is found in some types vs muriatic found in others?  It really doesn't sand off too badly, either, and it'll probably bead blast as well. The last project I did turned out well but there was none of this remaining. That thing had no finish whatsoever apart from the badly browned, dinged, and pitted, well, all over.  One of these days I'll have to figure how to post pictures. 
  As noted by the OP, this is no ticket to a bargain bin super gun. We do it for the love of it and the CZ is a good, solid platform to start with that has enough parts support (both OEM and aftermarket) to make something special out of it. It's worth far more to me being something that is uniquely my own than I could ever recoup in a sale.
I use it as a sort of guide coat when sanding. The only places I use chemicals to remove it are the slide serrations, top rib, roll marks etc. I've used Birchwood blue remover gel and gotten it done, but I've since switched to Evaporust. Sometimes I miss some, but the first rust cycle shows me quickly if it needs more attention.

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Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 07, 2018, 01:13:15 PM
Things are getting exciting now.

I hit the ribs and serrations with a stainless wire brush. I think it's ok.

I decided that I've probably put enough into the parts and now they deserve to be blued.
So they sit in an acetone bath right now, strung up with wire.
I went out and bought 1 gallon of Poland Springs distilled water. My electric burner arrived and so did my dedicated 5 quart bluing pot.

Game on.

Gloves only from here on in.

I'll be attempting my first blue tonight after my family goes to bed.

A few last minute questions:

1. Do I re-use the distilled water in the pot for every boiling or do I need to use new distilled water every time?
2. Confirming that I'm going to be applying the bluing agent to everything except the firing pin channel
3. There will be some really hard to reach areas. Am I expecting to spent significant time carding with steel wool?
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: sberres on March 07, 2018, 03:29:09 PM
  Ok, I'm sure there are others with more experience with rust bluing than I and I hope they weigh in as much for your benefit as my own. When I did this I couldn't find an answer to the water question so I used a fresh pot at every cycle. At only about 1/2 gal each time this was the least of the costs involved.
  About the most consistent and detailed information available for rust bluing was from this site and one called, Finishing.com. There is an older thread there that had some good info.
  I believe SP01Shadow had commented to not worry about the frame innards as they would be difficult to card well anyhow. I found that carding took about 10 -20 minutes and that I could boil, card, reapply before going to work and then again when I got home. This was last fall in the upper Midwest so slightly cooler temps and lower humidity. Those variables will be key to rust bloom development.
  I used degreased 0000 steel wool and a degreased small ss brush. Places I couldn't get to didn't worry me. It really doesn't take much friction to knock off the loose velvet layer and as you progress it will become less prominent.
  The final steps become a little bit hazy with mixed comments, but it made sense to me to do an additional boil with some baking soda to ensure that all residual acid was neutralized and then make sure the parts were dried well. I kept a heat gun there that was used to dry, to preheat, etc... throughout the process.   Then soak well in lots of WD40 to make sure the water is thoroughly displaced. After that the parts were warmed and generously rubbed and soaked with boiled linseed oil for day. Finally, wipe down the excess and treat with your favorite gun oil. You'll find some variations to this but it amounts to dewatering and then doing sort of a "curing" that lets an oil with some retentive properties access to the pore structure.
  Looking forward to seeking your results!
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 07, 2018, 03:29:20 PM
Things are getting exciting now.

I hit the ribs and serrations with a stainless wire brush. I think it's ok.

I decided that I've probably put enough into the parts and now they deserve to be blued.
So they sit in an acetone bath right now, strung up with wire.
I went out and bought 1 gallon of Poland Springs distilled water. My electric burner arrived and so did my dedicated 5 quart bluing pot.

Game on.

Gloves only from here on in.

I'll be attempting my first blue tonight after my family goes to bed.

A few last minute questions:

1. Do I re-use the distilled water in the pot for every boiling or do I need to use new distilled water every time?
2. Confirming that I'm going to be applying the bluing agent to everything except the firing pin channel
3. There will be some really hard to reach areas. Am I expecting to spent significant time carding with steel wool?
Only use enough water to cover your parts when boiling, a hot plate won't boil a full pot. I usually buy 4-5 gallons at a time. I get a few cycles before changing it out.
 Apply the acid wherever you can without unnecessary overlap, the internal surfaces will end up rusting even if you miss some spots. If you miss a small spot on the inside, you can catch it on the next cycle. It's more important to be neat while wiping the outside than to get everything on the inside. I use Q-tips for hard to reach areas, just don't double dip. Carding usually takes me 15 minutes or so per cycle on a 75.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 07, 2018, 03:34:58 PM
  Ok, I'm sure there are others with more experience with rust bluing than I and I hope they weigh in as much for your benefit as my own. When I did this I couldn't find an answer to the water question so I used a fresh pot at every cycle. At only about 1/2 gal each time this was the least of the costs involved.
  About the most consistent and detailed information available for rust bluing was from this site and one called, Finishing.com. There is an older thread there that had some good info.
  I believe SP01Shadow had commented to not worry about the frame innards as they would be difficult to card well anyhow. I found that carding took about 10 -20 minutes and that I could boil, card, reapply before going to work and then again when I got home. This was last fall in the upper Midwest so slightly cooler temps and lower humidity. Those variables will be key to rust bloom development.
  I used degreased 0000 steel wool and a degreased small ss brush. Places I couldn't get to didn't worry me. It really doesn't take much friction to knock off the loose velvet layer and as you progress it will become less prominent.
  The final steps become a little bit hazy with mixed comments, but it made sense to me to do an additional boil with some baking soda to ensure that all residual acid was neutralized and then make sure the parts were dried well. I kept a heat gun there that was used to dry, to preheat, etc... throughout the process.   Then soak well in lots of WD40 to make sure the water is thoroughly displaced. After that the parts were warmed and generously rubbed and soaked with boiled linseed oil for day. Finally, wipe down the excess and treat with your favorite gun oil. You'll find some variations to this but it amounts to dewatering and then doing sort of a "curing" that lets an oil with some retentive properties access to the pore structure.
  Looking forward to seeking your results!
Great post, I only differ in one area. I don't use baking soda. I just oil the gun well, it will continue to darken a bit after the final carding. That's how you get really deep color.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 07, 2018, 03:38:03 PM
Thanks everyone for your comments. Very helpful.

I have 1 gallon of distilled on hand. I'll only use enough to cover the parts.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Mccian on March 07, 2018, 04:27:51 PM
Good luck Underwhere....looking forward to you sharing successful blueing.....
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 07, 2018, 11:18:16 PM
OK what a night. Very exciting.

Here's what I did.... And then I'll tell you what I think I should have done.

What I did:
Did the controls first, frame second, slide third.

1. Put on gloves.
2. Set half a gallon of distilled water to boil. 3. Removed from acetone and used an air compressor to blow parts dry.
4. Mark Lee instructions say to heat the metal to 150 to 200 degrees with a propane torch and then apply the solution. I tried with my heat gun. It was far too slow. I used a propane torch but my temp gun wouldn't read it very well.
5. Applied solution with a wool dauber and q-tip
6. Repeated steps 4 and 5 two more times
7. Dropped parts in boiling water for 5 minutes
8. Removed from water and immediately blew the parts dry with my air compressor
9. Carded it.

Issues I ran into:
1. I heated up the metal too much. I knew because as soon as I applied the solution it flash boiled on the metal. This caused the solution to essentially harden and raise up a bit on the surface rather than glide smoothly on it. Oops.
2. I applied too much bluing solution. I consciously used very little and it still was too much. It dripped quite a bit on the floor if it gives you any sense of how much I applied. I needed to dip and blot against the sides of the container more.
3. Overall these things caused a non-uniform application however I don't know it that made a difference.
4. I did 3 different boilings. I separated them out. The water was still clear after the controls. However after the frame it was very brown. I didn't change the water and just dropped the slide in. If I had done them all at once they would have had clea  water to boil in. Not sure if it would have made a difference but it does remove one more possible area for error.

Questions. What are these black spots that don't seem to be going away after carding.

Did I do it correctly?
Do I need to redo it? Evaporust and the re-blue?

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180308/52b59f0d75afdf4daf82119f3612cb53.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180308/4e5c9bfde96aa1e3cd51757d9126edd6.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180308/45a96501d2964b96dd252b6893749444.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180308/6381023a9a5cfb5d43850ef0e08347ac.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180308/37ceb440c59e30bf93642ad5046539b3.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180308/0471b4d714cc4aeb0079ca3cc3a12eea.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180308/1ad76597215cd64b2ca3c48787ec5f26.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180308/ec3ece41f6dddfc37284f144e348b25e.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180308/620072ce7f9fd456faaed2c02ad850f7.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 07, 2018, 11:47:59 PM
Some more pics(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180308/e8e9bb91ba26d63f269f9dbd0c1d24c8.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180308/f912e1feaf7bb77ad3f9e3acaf878703.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180308/a8104249c0f407aa4ce043d86547a15f.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180308/13e7b0cfedfd6f556b1f99f318e64de2.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180308/f2f3bd8eb21abd94699ce23887e23b01.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180308/f0cd4e895e2e7b99729e18f82b99a172.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 08, 2018, 06:22:15 AM
I would try another cycle and see how it looks. Skip the pre-heating step and let it work naturally. Hang the parts in a humid area and give them time to rust. When you apply, you want your patch or swab to be saturated but almost dry- wring it out as much as possible. I use barrel cleaning patches because they're easy to wring out and don't leave lint.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 08, 2018, 07:13:09 AM
I would try another cycle and see how it looks. Skip the pre-heating step and let it work naturally. Hang the parts in a humid area and give them time to rust. When you apply, you want your patch or swab to be saturated but almost dry- wring it out as much as possible. I use barrel cleaning patches because they're easy to wring out and don't leave lint.
OK I'll definitely switch to cleaning patches.

Trying to figure out the humid area part.
I could maybe toss a humidifier in a box. I'd need a large box.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 08, 2018, 07:18:53 AM
How do people rust their controls?
Seems like using a wire to hang them isn't ideal because it leaves an area covered by the wire.

Also I'm assuming it's OK to toss the parts directly into the boiling water. I don't need to be concerned about the metal cooking off the bottom of the pot? No need to suspend it in water?
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 08, 2018, 07:29:06 AM
I would try another cycle and see how it looks. Skip the pre-heating step and let it work naturally. Hang the parts in a humid area and give them time to rust. When you apply, you want your patch or swab to be saturated but almost dry- wring it out as much as possible. I use barrel cleaning patches because they're easy to wring out and don't leave lint.
OK I'll definitely switch to cleaning patches.

Trying to figure out the humid area part.
I could maybe toss a humidifier in a box. I'd need a large box.
Before I built a sweat box, I hung mine in a bathroom with a few inches of hot water in the tub. Close the door and you'll have rust in a few hours.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 08, 2018, 07:31:21 AM
How do people rust their controls?
Seems like using a wire to hang them isn't ideal because it leaves an area covered by the wire.

Also I'm assuming it's OK to toss the parts directly into the boiling water. I don't need to be concerned about the metal cooking off the bottom of the pot? No need to suspend it in water?
I don't hang small parts. Just throw them in the pot.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: sberres on March 08, 2018, 09:04:12 AM
That was in one night?!  You must have been at it a while!  +1 to what Earl says about heating. The notion is to open up the metallic pore structure but overdoing it is no good either. It really doesn't take much. The heat gun works well for drying as soon as you pull parts out of the boil. Focus on the holes and cutouts so that you don't have streaks.
  After the initial double application just keep repeating the cycle, acid wipe, allow to rust, boil, card- until it seems as deep and uniform as you like. Could be a few applications, 6, 10?  Whatever you deem effective. Rust formation will become less and less pronounced and you'll see fewer points of unevenness unless you missed something in your prep.
  It doesn't take much acid on a swab or patch to accomplish a coat. Only slightly moisten the surface and avoid trying to rub it in or double apply anywhere. The rust does the work, not you. And, there's a reason it says "slow" right in the name. Patience.
  The sweatbox or over-the-tub methods may speed things up but it'll take place on its own without such help. Just don't get greedy.  Trying for too much all at once can lead to pitting.  At the time of year I did mine it was taking 10-12 hrs with nothing excessive.
  Looking good!
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 08, 2018, 09:06:51 AM
Here's a small makeshift sweat box. There is zero humidity where I am right now and my wife would not respond too well to gun parts hanging in the shower.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180308/8074c87b4b5249e26fa95f0631ed29f6.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180308/f96e3421d707d79db1084c001c1fa67c.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 08, 2018, 09:17:20 AM
That was in one night?!  You must have been at it a while!  +1 to what Earl says about heating. The notion is to open up the metallic pore structure but overdoing it is no good either. It really doesn't take much. The heat gun works well for drying as soon as you pull parts out of the boil. Focus on the holes and cutouts so that you don't have streaks.
  After the initial double application just keep repeating the cycle, acid wipe, allow to rust, boil, card- until it seems as deep and uniform as you like. Could be a few applications, 6, 10?  Whatever you deem effective. Rust formation will become less and less pronounced and you'll see fewer points of unevenness unless you missed something in your prep.
  It doesn't take much acid on a swab or patch to accomplish a coat. Only slightly moisten the surface and avoid trying to rub it in or double apply anywhere. The rust does the work, not you. And, there's a reason it says "slow" right in the name. Patience.
  The sweatbox or over-the-tub methods may speed things up but it'll take place on its own without such help. Just don't get greedy.  Trying for too much all at once can lead to pitting.  At the time of year I did mine it was taking 10-12 hrs with nothing excessive.
  Looking good!
Thanks for the advice. I do my work late at night after the family goes to bed. It's really my only free time.

If this doesn't go perfectly then i may still keep the gun in imperfect shape. Good to have milestone markers :)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 08, 2018, 09:39:46 AM
In my sweat box, I use a scented wax warmer with water in it. You want humidity, without condensation.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: sberres on March 08, 2018, 09:55:47 AM
How about a smallish crock pot with some water in it?  Too small an area for the ultrasonic to do anything but make a fine mist.
  It didn't really look like you had any standout 'spots' from what I could see in the pics. Repeat the cycles several times over and I think you'll be amazed at the result.
  I believe someone had posted on the forum once that if they had to take a break from it for a while that they'd just spray the thing with wd40 and seal it up till they could get back to it. Then just degrease again. Heck, I would think that you could just immerse it in acetone and it would sit just fine without requiring further degreasing or prep to continue the process when you get back to it.   
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 08, 2018, 10:23:30 AM
How about a smallish crock pot with some water in it?  Too small an area for the ultrasonic to do anything but make a fine mist.
  It didn't really look like you had any standout 'spots' from what I could see in the pics. Repeat the cycles several times over and I think you'll be amazed at the result.
  I believe someone had posted on the forum once that if they had to take a break from it for a while that they'd just spray the thing with wd40 and seal it up till they could get back to it. Then just degrease again. Heck, I would think that you could just immerse it in acetone and it would sit just fine without requiring further degreasing or prep to continue the process when you get back to it.
A small crock pot would work. I've left partially blued parts in acetone for months will no ill effect, as long as they're completely submerged.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 08, 2018, 11:34:03 PM
So I went against all the good advice I received. I'll explain why. I do feel I owe it to everyone who has helped me in this thread.

My results were unexpected to me.
*What I did was not what other people have done.
*I don't have any humidity here and I can't use a shower. I couldn't think of how to make a sweat box with humidity without condensation.
*I like to experiment and this would certainly be exactly that.
*I like to fail fast so I know right away to redo things.

I elected to continue the same pre-heating method of applying the bluing agent. If this was going to fail I wanted to know tonight and also know for sure that it was my process that as the problem.

I tried bringing the temps a bit lower. I switched to a cleaning patch this time. At least initially.

I found much less rust this time. The controls barely rusted and this was only after 1 rusting session. Odd.

So I heated up the controls even hotter and used a dauber with more bluing agent. Much more rust this time.

Interesting results:
The strange spots went away. Other strange spots took their place in other locations.

This time after removing from the boiling water not everything was black. There was still some orange rust here or there. I don't know why. I expected all black.

Nevertheless I still think it's turning out OK. Not perfect but it's working.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180309/9ef30ebef1b359ebd23855adf3e2fe57.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180309/aae4a26545f69382309fb6f4cef38f87.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180309/303b613907fd787a14b70cdcfdd77fbc.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180309/3120801f8e928cd363bc776ca6f797d1.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180309/20eaa8da68e2efa9f5d02cf8663c45f7.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180309/1ae7eded45b507a7a09bcb949cd2c359.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180309/136fda5e710f5bd43c8f778765116bc1.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180309/71e36ae631693ce0feb4837a4b1aa7d1.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180309/d9a261eeec8374c321e8e2d406faa455.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 09, 2018, 06:29:21 AM
The remaining"orange rust" is likely copper residue from over applying the solution. You can rush things if you want, just be aware that you may wind up with a less durable finish. Making a sweat box is as simple as hanging parts in a cardboard box with a $12 Walmart scented wax diffuser in it, no condensation problem at all.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 09, 2018, 06:51:50 AM
The remaining"orange rust" is likely copper residue from over applying the solution. You can rush things if you want, just be aware that you may wind up with a less durable finish. Making a sweat box is as simple as hanging parts in a cardboard box with a $12 Walmart scented wax diffuser in it, no condensation problem at all.
OK thanks.

I have another pre-b sitting in stripper right now. Likely that will get the sweat box if this goes OK.

If it doesn't go OK, this gets the sweat box too. Already have the box. Just need the candle warmer.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: sberres on March 09, 2018, 08:48:11 AM
Pre-heat or don't pre-heat. It's up to you. It's not a critical element. What you are seeing is just what you are supposed to be seeing. As the surfaces become more protected by the oxide you are developing there will be less forming. Surface prep is probably the most critical element to rust bluing. Most of the rest will even out pretty well as you go.  As Earl said, there is a little something else going one when you reach the point that the bloom no longer blackens.  And you probably find it looking a lot more uniform when you card it off.   
  Now you can apply your experience to the next one to be more effective and efficient.  More sweat in the box than on your brow. 😉  We'll be looking forward to the finished pics!
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: newageroman on March 09, 2018, 08:54:13 AM
This kind of thread is why I love this site. Thanks for all the pics and explanations. I am tempted to get some small parts and try it with them sometime this spring/summer.

As for the sweatbox, would it be possible to re-purpose that heat box that you built for the stripping?

Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 09, 2018, 04:12:07 PM
This kind of thread is why I love this site. Thanks for all the pics and explanations. I am tempted to get some small parts and try it with them sometime this spring/summer.

As for the sweatbox, would it be possible to re-purpose that heat box that you built for the stripping?

yeah I'm getting seconds thoughts. My wife said she had a candle warmer somewhere in our xmas decorations in the basement somewhere. If I can dig it up I may try using it.

I could re-use the box I built for the stripping...however it's still being used for stripping. I have a second gun in there right now.

Besides, I just "built" a cardboard box for the sweating. Very advanced stuff here with foil tape. :)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: sberres on March 09, 2018, 11:23:20 PM
Wait, what?  You got cardboard?!  I thought this was supposed to only be temporary?
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 10, 2018, 12:12:40 AM
So I attempted my 3rd rusting and boiling. Here are the pics. Still getting some strange marks which I assume are from my "process" being sloppy or too fast.

I'm using Mark Lee's express blue.
The directions state to
* heat the metal to 150 to 200 degrees
* apply the solution
* wait 30 seconds for it to flash dry
* apply 2 more times
* rust should form immediately
* boil for 5 minutes

There is no mention of actually waiting for rust which seems different than most other bluing solutions. (I assume)

The entire process for me takes about 2.5 hours (heating, applying, boiling, carding) (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180310/b41bc68585457cd67b6515e87edd6fcf.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180310/3d98a39a5cebf13b35db9d67530bd2fd.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180310/003d62e8bb35fcde33201fa29bc6ac02.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180310/d1092c57f32f42ef049bb441177438ff.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180310/263a33a24a452b74004acd5c467d7874.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180310/233b6bbc42393a5c4d6866f07bdf2722.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 10, 2018, 12:17:16 AM
So I'm going to try as suggested and not heat and slow down... Let the solution do its thing.

I wiped on the solution very carefully after wringing the cleaning patch out. As soon as I wiped I got dry spots as the solution thinned against the metal so I wiped again until I knew the solution had uniformly been applied.

I strung it up in a cardboard box and went looking for my candle melt thing. I couldn't find it... So I did what I could.

I placed a sheet of glass on the bottom and laid and 2 wet paper towels on top of it. Then a small plastic cup of water.

I doubt I'll get much moisture. It's 55 degrees in my basement and dry.

But if I'm slow bluing... I guess I'm going really slow now. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180310/70a0c2ade4a74398746ba06c66c96129.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180310/e5c3676144d24f76c5b1de6f0608245d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180310/3fd0ff5257201039f0d6ec2bf9b6bb4d.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 10, 2018, 01:28:10 AM
So re-reading another set of Mark Lee's instructions it says in the tips section "coat it as if you were trying to ruin it"

So maybe the sloppy method is OK?
The instructions mention that variances will work their way out as each application is done.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 10, 2018, 06:49:45 AM
If Mark Lee's express blue "method" was superior to the slow rust blue method, I'd think it would have replaced the traditional way by now. Seeing the results you're getting, I would change my approach if I was you. You've got all the advice you need in this thread to be successful if you're patient. SP01SHADOW is active on another forum, he would likely tell you the same.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 10, 2018, 07:05:43 AM
If Mark Lee's express blue "method" was superior to the slow rust blue method, I'd think it would have replaced the traditional way by now. Seeing the results you're getting, I would change my approach if I was you. You've got all the advice you need in this thread to be successful if you're patient. SP01SHADOW is active on another forum, he would likely tell you the same.
Yup. Understood.

I'm trying to rig up some humidity from boiled water as a stopgap before I can go out and pick up a wax warmer. (boiled water and transferred to a pot inside the box)

Thanks for the advice and patience through my experimentation.

Here is where my parts stand now. Hanging out for 8 hours with bluing solution on but without a ton of humidity.

The paper towels didn't work.
 (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180310/2fee2360ae0d56acd26beae4ad28575a.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180310/9ddd3f9edc90d781116cf1436235663a.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 10, 2018, 07:10:23 AM
Just some very warm tap water in a pan would work. Boiling water will just cause condensation, which will cause more spotting. Slow down and enjoy the process, the results will come.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 10, 2018, 07:11:01 AM
Just some very warm tap water in a pan would work. Boiling water will just cause condensation, which will cause more spotting. Slow down and enjoy the process, the results will come.
Crap back to the basement for me.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 10, 2018, 07:16:59 AM
Just some very warm tap water in a pan would work. Boiling water will just cause condensation, which will cause more spotting. Slow down and enjoy the process, the results will come.
Crap back to the basement for me.
You're right. Just 2 minutes with the boiled water and the were coated in condensation.

I grabbed the wire and used my compressor to blow them dry.

Here they are dry again with my mistake boiled water. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180310/b781a8ae6a2a7bfb39fe616f65f08420.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180310/7f62b0e1532641b1833418985366d0c1.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180310/9582c2f6077318c956cc053a62ba5b5b.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: sberres on March 10, 2018, 10:00:43 AM
You're getting there. If the small parts are not progressing any further you may we'll be done with them and able to focus on the frame parts. The oxide was formed for them in the first couple of applications.  They really aren't getting any further benefit as long as they appear even.
It'll really make for a top notch finish but you can certainly see how impractical it is for large scale commercial manufacture.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 10, 2018, 10:13:19 AM
You're getting there. If the small parts are not progressing any further you may we'll be done with them and able to focus on the frame parts. The oxide was formed for them in the first couple of applications.  They really aren't getting any further benefit as long as they appear even.
It'll really make for a top notch finish but you can certainly see how impractical it is for large scale commercial manufacture.
That's what I was thinking as well (the small parts).

I just don't understand why they would finish before the rest as they went through the same prep process and same rusting process. I was thinking everything would finish at the same time.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: sberres on March 10, 2018, 10:28:16 AM
They're so small that they just don't have difficulty appearing even and uniform. The first couple of acid applications get the oxide formation right away and it's not like it gets somehow deeper or thicker. If it does anything like that it is at the expense of the parent metal and that is NOT what you are after. Once the oxide layer forms it serves to protect the parent metal from further oxidation.
I'm trying to figure out the tapatalk thing to post some pics of my last project. Any advice?
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 10, 2018, 10:39:08 AM
They're so small that they just don't have difficulty appearing even and uniform. The first couple of acid applications get the oxide formation right away and it's not like it gets somehow deeper or thicker. If it does anything like that it is at the expense of the parent metal and that is NOT what you are after. Once the oxide layer forms it serves to protect the parent metal from further oxidation.
I'm trying to figure out the tapatalk thing to post some pics of my last project. Any advice?
I installed the app on my phone. It allows me to load pics directly from my phone. It actually is easier than using a computer. That also happens to be why this thread has so many of my pics.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: sberres on March 10, 2018, 12:33:54 PM
I installed the app cuz I've heard that. Now I'm trying to figure out the rest but not having much luck so far. Not quite as intuitive as I'd hoped. I'll keep monkeying with it.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 10, 2018, 09:19:58 PM
I installed the app cuz I've heard that. Now I'm trying to figure out the rest but not having much luck so far. Not quite as intuitive as I'd hoped. I'll keep monkeying with it.
When you reply, look at the bottom left of the screen and there is an icon to add pics. Then it'll allow you to choose from your phone's gallery.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180311/b8043b163ebca699ab3ca149414a079a.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 10, 2018, 10:42:22 PM
OK.
I cleaned and coated the parts again tonight just a few minutes ago.

My wife produced the wax melter from our Xmas stuff.

Here is a small pan filled with water in my cardboard sweatbox.

Im hopeful it will be fine and also that my house doesn't catch fire while we sleep.

Pics are if the blobs of darkness. I wonder if that's poor application of rusting solution or whether it's just something that will even out as I continue.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180311/aaddf92e260c789f14bb5cfe5cbb134c.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180311/56537d0d4ff1884d6acd81bf80b8cf20.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180311/770ee213a0337055456596c2183ab460.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180311/a7338d5ec1cdffa74b210893c2397e00.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180311/df03f767373ce06e83c02ea689932934.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180311/72b11e7f06a6a48fccc3518fd7af13fd.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180311/0934f782f760075acb5527f0e415a486.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 10, 2018, 11:19:14 PM
If you don't get a decent coat of rust this cycle, I would hit it with Evaporust and start fresh. I don't think those spots will even out, sorry.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 10, 2018, 11:30:48 PM
If you don't get a decent coat of rust this cycle, I would hit it with Evaporust and start fresh. I don't think those spots will even out, sorry.
Thanks. Will do. Not too concerned about starting over. It's not like I have a deadline. Just looking to learn something new.

 If i do start over, I'll probably go with a different rusting solution. Mark Lee's instructions don't coincide with most people's experiences here so I may as well use what I have the most support with.



Here it is after 2 hours of my makeshift sweatbox. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180311/a1df7a1d7473684eb09b855954a2414c.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 10, 2018, 11:47:25 PM
If you don't get a decent coat of rust this cycle, I would hit it with Evaporust and start fresh. I don't think those spots will even out, sorry.
Thanks. Will do. Not too concerned about starting over. It's not like I have a deadline. Just looking to learn something new.

 If i do start over, I'll probably go with a different rusting solution. Mark Lee's instructions don't coincide with most people's experiences here so I may as well use what I have the most support with.



Here it is after 2 hours of my makeshift sweatbox. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180311/a1df7a1d7473684eb09b855954a2414c.jpg)
I still think there's hope. I look back to pics I have of the blotches and they seem to move around. So I hope that means my subsequent rustings have evened out those areas but have perhaps created new ones. And even a better hope is that once the gun starts to really resist rust that it may all start to even out.

One can hope.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 11, 2018, 07:07:48 AM
I've found Laurel Mountain's solution to be the easiest to use. They also have the cheapest shipping and overall price IIRC.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 11, 2018, 07:23:18 AM
Have you watched the MosinVirus video on YouTube about rust bluing? If not, perhaps it may help:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQjU1ncwGPE
I think I did a while ago.
I just think my Mark Lee express blue instructions are a very different process.

But I'll go watch again. It can't hurt.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 11, 2018, 07:23:37 AM
I've found Laurel Mountain's solution to be the easiest to use. They also have the cheapest shipping and overall price IIRC.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
OK I'll try that next time.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 11, 2018, 08:24:59 AM
So after a night of sitting in my homemade sweat box it doesn't look like a lot of rust happened. Flash makes it look very rusty.

So I'm not too optimistic anymore.
I'll boil and card to see what happens.

If it still doesn't look good then I'll just continue with the sloppy propane torch way of doing things a few more times just to see if any of the blotches fill in or more. I figure if I'm going to reblue it, why not just follow the Mark Lee instructions through to completion (6 to 10 rustings) (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180311/cb66e299a16e29963442d0a5168e8232.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180311/eaa8fa1bede7ce0388837047d6db1f7e.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180311/9da4c5a4ea9cc4df373f727a4e2f7f6b.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180311/4629e0348bddf05aed385e62210c3e67.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: sberres on March 11, 2018, 09:37:11 AM
Regardless of your chosen product or method virtually every tutorial will be lacking to some degree. Reviewing numerous tutorials carefully can provide a good level of detail if the parts of the puzzle all seem to fit. One thing for certain is that as soon as the video host holds up their bottle of MiracleBlu BrandX is that you don't need to waste any more time there. Unless you really have nothing better to do. And good info for slow rust bluing is pretty limited.
  In the end, only you can decide if your results are up to your standards or if they are progressing satisfactorily, or if you'd rather go back and try something differently. Yours is the only opinion that really matters in this case.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 11, 2018, 09:40:34 AM
Regardless of your chosen product or method virtually every tutorial will be lacking to some degree. Reviewing numerous tutorials carefully can provide a good level of detail if the parts of the puzzle all seem to fit. One thing for certain is that as soon as the video host holds up their bottle of MiracleBlu BrandX is that you don't need to waste any more time there. Unless you really have nothing better to do. And good info for slow rust bluing is pretty limited.
  In the end, only you can decide if your results are up to your standards or if they are progressing satisfactorily, or if you'd rather go back and try something differently. Yours is the only opinion that really matters in this case.
Good advice.
My brother who is usually very particular about his guns says that he would be OK with my current results.

Personally I just want to understand how this all works so I can do it a second and third time with improvements over my first.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 11, 2018, 10:29:40 AM
Regardless of your chosen product or method virtually every tutorial will be lacking to some degree. Reviewing numerous tutorials carefully can provide a good level of detail if the parts of the puzzle all seem to fit. One thing for certain is that as soon as the video host holds up their bottle of MiracleBlu BrandX is that you don't need to waste any more time there. Unless you really have nothing better to do. And good info for slow rust bluing is pretty limited.
  In the end, only you can decide if your results are up to your standards or if they are progressing satisfactorily, or if you'd rather go back and try something differently. Yours is the only opinion that really matters in this case.
I hope I haven't offended anybody here. Other opinions do matter when they're asked for. Standards are one thing, whether something is done correctly or successfully is another.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 11, 2018, 10:32:29 AM
Regardless of your chosen product or method virtually every tutorial will be lacking to some degree. Reviewing numerous tutorials carefully can provide a good level of detail if the parts of the puzzle all seem to fit. One thing for certain is that as soon as the video host holds up their bottle of MiracleBlu BrandX is that you don't need to waste any more time there. Unless you really have nothing better to do. And good info for slow rust bluing is pretty limited.
  In the end, only you can decide if your results are up to your standards or if they are progressing satisfactorily, or if you'd rather go back and try something differently. Yours is the only opinion that really matters in this case.
I hope I haven't offended anybody here. Other opinions do matter when they're asked for. Standards are one thing, whether something is done correctly or successfully is another.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
I don't believe you have. You've been extremely helpful.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: sberres on March 11, 2018, 04:22:13 PM
Regardless of your chosen product or method virtually every tutorial will be lacking to some degree. Reviewing numerous tutorials carefully can provide a good level of detail if the parts of the puzzle all seem to fit. One thing for certain is that as soon as the video host holds up their bottle of MiracleBlu BrandX is that you don't need to waste any more time there. Unless you really have nothing better to do. And good info for slow rust bluing is pretty limited.
  In the end, only you can decide if your results are up to your standards or if they are progressing satisfactorily, or if you'd rather go back and try something differently. Yours is the only opinion that really matters in this case.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: sberres on March 11, 2018, 04:37:36 PM
Sorry about that repeat thing. Trying to get the hang of tapatalk so that I can post some content and get ready to post one of my own project journeys. I think you're dong great with it and certainly don't see where anyone would be offended in the least.  I have a project that I'd earlier asked for some advice on and intend to try and post it's outcome. But no matter what advice was offered it's still my project and I alone have to live with the outcome whether pass, fail, or meh.
  Below is my first attempt at this sort of work:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180311/13c99d8564fa50b068909be85116af68.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180311/ca0afc54483e4fb1877b2eeec68af6f3.jpg)
  It was a pretty beat up 'poor' condition that had lots of exterior abuse, and no finish. I really had to work it down to clean it up. I filed/sanded the flats and head blasted the contours. The small parts were only given Oxpho. This had the old style front sight which was milled for a dovetail and replaced by a Dawson from CGW. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180311/e733d2e856909325a3a8b2abc09e4075.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180311/95c18f25658e4eec85d324fe130f2030.jpg)
  I was pleased with the overall result and have another in the works. I did some work with the beavertail but wanted something a bit different for the next one.  I'll start it's own thread after the weather warms up enough to do the bluing in the shed. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 11, 2018, 04:44:10 PM
Sorry about that repeat thing. Trying to get the hang of tapatalk so that I can post some content and get ready to post one of my own project journeys. I think you're dong great with it and certainly don't see where anyone would be offended in the least.  I have a project that I'd earlier asked for some advice on and intend to try and post it's outcome. But no matter what advice was offered it's still my project and I alone have to live with the outcome whether pass, fail, or meh.
  Below is my first attempt at this sort of work:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180311/13c99d8564fa50b068909be85116af68.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180311/ca0afc54483e4fb1877b2eeec68af6f3.jpg)
  It was a pretty beat up 'poor' condition that had lots of exterior abuse, and no finish. I really had to work it down to clean it up. I filed/sanded the flats and head blasted the contours. The small parts were only given Oxpho. This had the old style front sight which was milled for a dovetail and replaced by a Dawson from CGW. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180311/e733d2e856909325a3a8b2abc09e4075.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180311/95c18f25658e4eec85d324fe130f2030.jpg)
  I was pleased with the overall result and have another in the works. I did some work with the beavertail but wanted something a bit different for the next one.  I'll start it's own thread after the weather warms up enough to do the bluing in the shed. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That looks great. Glad you got the Tapatalk stuff working too.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: sberres on March 11, 2018, 09:29:05 PM
Thx!  What the best pic size to post?  I used medium. Does small work ok? 
  Seems my real problem wasn't so much in taking a photo but in using one that I'd already stored as a note. I think we got it, though. Thanks for your help!
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 11, 2018, 11:22:56 PM
I did one more rusting tonight. Mark Lee's instructions.

If I look closely I still see blotches but actually not too bad.

The worst area is on the front of the slide and I think I know what that's from. It's  pattern. It's from my paper towels. So I must have Contaminated or placed the slide in contact with the paper towel with wet rusting solution. Oops.

I think I'm done with this. I actually like this a lot and I'm going to keep this as is. It's not perfect but it'll be good to look back on and also have something to compare future work with.

I followed the mark lee instructions and it's sitting in a baking soda bath. As I had read the solution doesn't like to mix together very well so I have to hand mix every few minutes.

I'm not sure of my next steps. I have some boiled linseed oil. I have read to dunk this in tranny fluid or motor oil. Others say wipe with a thin layer of linseed. Any thoughts?

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180312/5e8cfa05d588ccc487406701875cdf98.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180312/ac074da33c78c72249fd3d1a3247f154.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180312/faac5b42ad2fdb000304a767ab8d7f49.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180312/a5abefe9e15b807c24b53f26a466c506.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180312/d0c5818158553256d3f5231090b6ed58.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180312/c855814428dc63c7881b4b31c45b256d.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: The Guardian on March 11, 2018, 11:31:41 PM
I'm not sure of my next steps. I have some boiled linseed oil. I have read to dunk this in tranny fluid or motor oil. Others say wipe with a thin layer of linseed. Any thoughts?

Actually any of those or just gun oil........the lubricant/oil stops the rusting process and seals/preserves the finish.......it will enhance the finish as well as blend the darker spots, it won't eliminate them but will soften them up with respect to the rest of the finish  ;)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 11, 2018, 11:37:59 PM
I'm not sure of my next steps. I have some boiled linseed oil. I have read to dunk this in tranny fluid or motor oil. Others say wipe with a thin layer of linseed. Any thoughts?

Actually any of those or just gun oil........the lubricant/oil stops the rusting process and seals/preserves the finish.......it will enhance the finish as well as blend the darker spots, it won't eliminate them but will soften them up with respect to the rest of the finish  ;)
So is this a wipe or dunk?
I have read that some leave it sitting in this oil in a bag for 24 hours.

Others suggest a wipe on with a thin coat and say it will leave streaks otherwise.

I found a mystery oil in my garage. No idea why I have it. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180312/4dd897234ce36adb6544a8a1520dbea9.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: The Guardian on March 11, 2018, 11:46:22 PM
My preference would be gun oil, regardless no matter what you use just wipe it on heavily and let it absorb into the finish......if you see dull spots just recoat it and let it set again for several hours.  I normally just coat it before bed and check it in the morning and recoat if necessary.  Submerging it is probably overkill but its your call.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: The Guardian on March 11, 2018, 11:52:31 PM
The thing about gun oil is it is thinner/light weight, I've never had issues with it leaving streaks, just apply it liberally.  This type finish is like any blued finish, occasional light oiling is advisable to help maintain a nice finish  ;)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 12, 2018, 12:34:15 AM
So I washed off the baking soda mixture with hot tap water.

Then I blew it dry with my compressor.

I noticed a bunch of rust. Interesting. Mark Lee's directions say that if you notice any rust after neutralizing to card off those areas. I did... Only they didn't go away.

Now my frame on the right side rear has these freckles as well as other areas. I didn't see this at any point in time before neutralizing.

I didn't really have a problem with the finish before. I think I may have a problem with the freckles now.

But I'm too far in. I may as well finish and see what it's like before deciding to start again.

I used my mystery motor oil. My gun oil is Slip 2000 and every marketing asset available purports it to be made of unicorn tears. Who knows what that would have done to the finish.

So it's sitting there with a coat if motor oil, freckled and in my basement. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180312/84e25fcbdeb9ab3397051d92fb60d1a0.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180312/5198ea7b87fb85e848e1a8f608368dd3.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180312/89411eae3fd0b9a2d65a1f9463db6d4e.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180312/2c550f09e9252c3613b6dcc8de912da7.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180312/87041b17b547fe217c25264cde6a3fe2.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180312/51beadd9d74d122346fdbc5b44a069af.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 12, 2018, 12:36:42 AM
I'm just praying it turns out ok.

The most physically taxing part of this entire process is actually my shoulders. I feel like I've been hunchbacked for 2 weeks straight.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 12, 2018, 08:15:22 AM
Freckles with the motor oil on it this morning.

Yea now i may redo it.

I may order some laurel mountain and look into building a better sweat box.


(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180312/975ad314fef3585c4cb32694008e76c5.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: sberres on March 12, 2018, 10:50:38 AM
Wish I had some magic words to throw in here about the freckles, but I'm at a loss. I can't see where baking soda should be able to make any sort of reaction, either. Frustrating and puzzling. If you scrub on them with oiled steel wool do they diminish at all?  Below are some tips that I have and will be following.
  Not knowing the nature of your air compressor I'd avoid using it for this type of work. Any contaminant in the air or tank (moisture, oil, rust particles) get blasted onto your project. Use a heat gun to dry parts as soon as you pull them from the water, paying particular attention to any holes, threads, crevices to prevent streaking.
  After each carding or other handling activity swish parts in acetone and dry with the heat gun before subsequent bluing steps. Keep wire brushes and steel wool washed similarly. Even avoid touching the gloves you wear at any point other than the cuff.
  Get a box of nitrile gloves ajnd change them frequently.
  Use a clean shop towel every time you lay parts in process on the table or work surface. Use a sheet of something under it to prevent contamination from anything residing on your workbench. 
  Put a small amount of bluing solution into a small glass cup to avoid contaminating the bottle. It only takes about a teaspoon to do an application to a pistol. Discard this after each acid step.
  I used the American Classic from Brownells because I figured it was the same as a name brand. It should be essentially nitric acid, hydrochloric acid, iron powder that's been reacted in the mix, and water.  I wasn't going to spend 3x the price for the same product in a different bottle.
  When I do my final boil I will add about 2-4 tbsp baking soda after the parts have boiled for 20 min., then boil another 10 min before rinsing in heated, distilled water and again drying with a heat gun.  As soon as this is done it gets soaked liberally in wd40 and held as wet as possible like this (immersed or wrapped in soaked shop towels) and held for a day before wiping it down.
  After the wd40 it'll be warmed again with the heat gun and liberally coated/rubbed/soaked in boiled linseed oil and again wrapped in oil soaked towels for a day.
  Finally some more gentle heating and a thorough rubdown should finish it and make it ready for any typical gun protectant and reassembly.
 
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 12, 2018, 11:03:15 AM
Wish I had some magic words to throw in here about the freckles, but I'm at a loss. I can't see where baking soda should be able to make any sort of reaction, either. Frustrating and puzzling. If you scrub on them with oiled steel wool do they diminish at all?  Below are some tips that I have and will be following.
  Not knowing the nature of your air compressor I'd avoid using it for this type of work. Any contaminant in the air or tank (moisture, oil, rust particles) get blasted onto your project. Use a heat gun to dry parts as soon as you pull them from the water, paying particular attention to any holes, threads, crevices to prevent streaking.
  After each carding or other handling activity swish parts in acetone and dry with the heat gun before subsequent bluing steps. Keep wire brushes and steel wool washed similarly. Even avoid touching the gloves you wear at any point other than the cuff.
  Get a box of nitrile gloves ajnd change them frequently.
  Use a clean shop towel every time you lay parts in process on the table or work surface. Use a sheet of something under it to prevent contamination from anything residing on your workbench. 
  Put a small amount of bluing solution into a small glass cup to avoid contaminating the bottle. It only takes about a teaspoon to do an application to a pistol. Discard this after each acid step.
  I used the American Classic from Brownells because I figured it was the same as a name brand. It should be essentially nitric acid, hydrochloric acid, iron powder that's been reacted in the mix, and water.  I wasn't going to spend 3x the price for the same product in a different bottle.
  When I do my final boil I will add about 2-4 tbsp baking soda after the parts have boiled for 20 min., then boil another 10 min before rinsing in heated, distilled water and again drying with a heat gun.  As soon as this is done it gets soaked liberally in wd40 and held as wet as possible like this (immersed or wrapped in soaked shop towels) and held for a day before wiping it down.
  After the wd40 it'll be warmed again with the heat gun and liberally coated/rubbed/soaked in boiled linseed oil and again wrapped in oil soaked towels for a day.
  Finally some more gentle heating and a thorough rubdown should finish it and make it ready for any typical gun protectant and reassembly.
 

Thanks. All good recommendations.
I was thinking about the air compressor. I know that sometimes people get moisture out of it. Maybe that's what happened. It's just puzzling that it only showed after the neutralization.

I do rinse in Acetone. I wonder if I should be changing out my Acetone. I leave it on a small clean rubbermaid container and dip the parts in. I wonder if there is some oil sitting in the acetone from earlier cleanings.

One thing that I struggle with is when to replace solutions. (Distilled water, acetone etc)
How do I actually confirm that anything I have is really degreased. My carding brushes. I dipped those in Acetone and swished them around. My 0000 steel wool I just dipped in a small amount of Acetone and wrung it dry.  I wonder if those weren't enough.


Oh well. I appreciate everyone's help and advice.

I need to start preparing for round 2.

I also need a break from this process. I can tell my wife is getting annoyed I'm in the basement every night she goes to bed.

Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Mccian on March 12, 2018, 12:49:18 PM
Hi Underwhere, check out this restoration done by a former member (if you haven"t already), https://www.cztalk.com/threads/restoration-of-a-pre-b.690/ 
 maybe you can gleam some info that will help.....I hope I'm not violating some forum rule by referring a thread from another forum.....
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Mccian on March 12, 2018, 12:57:19 PM
Hi Underwhere, check out this restoration done by a former member (if you haven"t already), https://www.cztalk.com/threads/restoration-of-a-pre-b.690/ 
 maybe you can gleam some info that will help.....I hope I'm not violating some forum rule by referring a thread from another forum.....

Disregard.....I hadn't read through the entire thread, saw where you had asked a couple of questions.....still admire the effort.....
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 12, 2018, 03:13:00 PM
Mark Lee wrote back to my email and said to skip the baking soda neutralization step next time so long as I have boiled the part.

He also said before stripping and re-bluing to attempt a degrease, scotchpad and reblue first. I may try that tonight to see if I can save it.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Mccian on March 12, 2018, 03:42:30 PM
Looked like you had a pretty darn good first time result before the baking soda......have been following as I want to do a Pre-B & CZ83 as soon as crazy work schedule tapers off.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 12, 2018, 11:13:30 PM
I'm optimistic now.

I hit it with a 3m ultra fine sanding pad and the spots are out now.

The slide actually was pretty good before the pad but I figured why not. The pad took out all the blotches as well.

Both parts now sit in acetone. I'll leave it til morning and then give them another bath in fresh acetone.

Then I'll try to Rust them again using Mark Lee's instructions with the propane torch.

A little concerned about oil. I wiped them with motor oil inside and out yesterday. I tried cleaning as best I could. I hope the acetone can get rid of that.

I also think a mistake I made was that I was too careless with my gloves and paper towels. I realized that the checkered pattern on my slide may also have been from my gloves which are textured. nonetheless I need to be more careful.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180313/629b39847f203a3ea535732310f15f2a.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180313/a272ca898d23c38bd1060a9d47c169ef.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180313/13122654434572f39a643bc779dd389e.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180313/80bf24df64ea714f4d5702b1a574445e.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180313/10134e125d9e2df9e8851922bc933ee4.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: The Guardian on March 13, 2018, 10:01:45 AM
Have to compliment you on sharing the good, the bad and the ugly of how projects can and sometimes do unfold.......oddly enough working through the issues that arise are what make people better, when things do go smoothly (like that ever really happens ::) ) I don’t think one learns anywhere near as much. So thanks for no “fake news”  ;D
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: sberres on March 13, 2018, 01:44:08 PM
+1 to that!  This thread has been very interesting and informative.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 13, 2018, 03:16:48 PM
So I snuck down during this blizzard I'm in and put a coat of rust on.

This time doubled up on new paper towels, wiped with acetone, no more air compressor but used a heat gun which I wiped down with acetone.

When I went to heat up the frame I noticed that some of the freckles came back. I'm not sure why. I used a small paper towel with acetone to rub the area and the spots went away. Hopefully the rusting takes care of it.

This time I made sure to grab the gloves from the rear, not touching any of the fingers as I removed them from the box.

I used acetone on the metal wire holding the parts.

I did not handle the metal at all after I wiped it down with acetone one final time.

Then hit it with a heat gun.

Then I rusted 3 times per Mark Lee's instructions.

I placed it on the clean paper towels so as to make minimal contact with it. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180313/e198beaa212b02b8fac7d4babcceb0de.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180313/2d28b2a9bfb40b992b770eebc4d8c022.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180313/38c8501c0ded38f1628f500c0fb108ee.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 13, 2018, 03:58:21 PM
Here are the parts out of boiling.
I used the heat gun to clear any water in cracks in holes. Definitely not as good as compressed air but less risk of contamination.

I was about to card it but then thought to ask...how do you ensure your carding brush and steel wool are free from oil?

Right now I have steel wool soaking in a bowl of acetone. Do I just wring it dry and assume it's good?

Do I just dip the brushes in acetone and just air dry them?

I'll probably card later this afternoon and determine whether any additional coats are necessary (or scrap it and start over)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180313/2835e5372dd382bca1486f4dc13b80eb.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180313/15afaf081327b489916c889cac0ec71a.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180313/3120329f67951960f69686e60903b946.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 13, 2018, 06:28:59 PM
The brushes don't have to be perfectly clean as long as you clean the parts before rusting.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 13, 2018, 07:10:09 PM
The brushes don't have to be perfectly clean as long as you clean the parts before rusting.
That's what I figured. I'm going to do an acetone dip before every rusting.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 13, 2018, 07:18:22 PM
Soaking and wringing the steel wool is what I do as well.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 13, 2018, 07:24:59 PM
So I think I am getting lucky.
After the scotbrite pad and rusting, all the problems seem to have vanished. No freckles. No blotchiness anymore.

I'm going to card later and maybe do 1 more rusting and call it done.

NO BAKING SODA this time.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180313/bffeb96df69c6b699db3b4fd86ab85a0.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180313/54cc6c9a367b51e599089df9ecfaaa32.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180313/5f6ed88eda73d13a79b5ee63e443abce.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: The Guardian on March 13, 2018, 10:46:41 PM
Nice follow-up effort.........all was not lost, just hidden a bit.  Can express enough how perceived "mistakes" actually have the ability to sometimes make one seem brilliant with respect to the final product.....like, oh yea I meant for it to turn out that way  ;D
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 13, 2018, 11:04:40 PM
Looks nice! Skipping the baking soda should allow it to season(darken) a little more over a week or so. Congrats!
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 13, 2018, 11:35:47 PM
Thanks everyone for your help.

I went down to card the frame and slide very excited to see the finish.

I carded the frame and found more blotches. Very much a pattern as well.

I found my source of contamination!  It's my gloves. The very thing I'm using to protect against oil likely has some sort of oil on it.

I remember washing my hands before heading to my basement. I remember consciously grabbing gloves near the cuffed portion and not near the fingers. I grabbed the carding brush and started.

You can see the matching pattern on the bluing.

I then tried washing the gloves off in acetone and I saw streaks of oil rising to the surface.

The reason why this didn't happen earlier today was that I carded and was diligent in not touching the frame whatsoever. I held it with the wire hangers and not the frame itself.

So now the frame sits in acetone. I hope it reverses the oil blotches. If not, I'll likely have to scotch Brite it again  and rust it again.

Looks like I need to buy new gloves. (or I contaminated it some other way that is unknown to me)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180314/9ea956f75fe125f2a3605e52f229c692.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180314/4fe3f9d6e1aa436486bbe05626c675f8.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180314/c2ea3ff3506ad60fde38060287e494f9.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180314/341aa81d0ad917a33cc5778e9a7cbcb6.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 13, 2018, 11:40:33 PM
I know nitrile gloves disentrgrate in acetone.

I don't think Latex does so if I get a box of those I can actually wash it off in acetone before handling the frame.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 14, 2018, 06:29:47 AM
If you're done rusting, just apply oil and let the parts sit for a week. Rust blue isn't a delicate finish. I wouldn't worry about the marks or discoloration at this point. After a good oil soak, they may disappear.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 14, 2018, 09:17:32 AM
If you're done rusting, just apply oil and let the parts sit for a week. Rust blue isn't a delicate finish. I wouldn't worry about the marks or discoloration at this point. After a good oil soak, they may disappear.

I hadn't considered that yet.

So this morning I went down and pulled the frame out of acetone. As I did I saw some stuff flash dry on it (I suspect oil) and so I wiped it off with a clean paper towel.

I tried to wipe off the blotches that my gloves left but they wouldn't clear.
So as an experiment I'm going to oil a small section to see if it blends in with the blotches. If so, I'll just oil up the entire gun. (not sure whether to boil first)

If this doesn't work I think I'm going to buy new latex gloves, re-degrease the frame and then scotchbrite it....then re-rust the frame.

I didn't touch the slide yet so I'm going to try and tackle that tonight and hopefully the slide is finished. The controls are done so that's at least out of the way. I hope it all matches.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180314/b39cd2f4fdf37bf81070a5e729c61dfc.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180314/71ba54f4e02e9a6376999284135c9f15.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 14, 2018, 09:50:17 AM
Oil will float on top of the acetone, so if it's there it will get back on the parts as you pull them. I think all the back and forth is catching up to you at this point. You can always throw a paper towel on top of the acetone and remove quickly to catch most of the oil.  Then wipe the gun with a towel saturated with clean acetone.
 This is why I pre-clean with water and  degreaser before putting the parts in acetone. The pre-clean is only necessary before the first rust cycle and then again if I've oiled the gun to take a break from bluing. Acetone is used as the final cleaning step, and shouldn't be contaminated quickly if the parts were clean to begin with. I think I've been using the same tub of acetone for the last three jobs I've done. I've never struggled with oil on pistols, but did have a check of a time with it on a Winchester model 70. I didn't think I'd ever get that one clean enough to blue, had to start over 3 times.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: sberres on March 14, 2018, 10:42:28 AM
I did the same as Earl with respect to degreasing. Folks' methods vary a bit whether they use something like Simple Green in an ultrasonic cleaner or boil using a heavy duty dishwasher or parts prep solution.  I opted to boil with a bit of TSP detergent that can be found in the paint section at the hardware store since it is the basic ingredient of commercial dishwasher detergents and doesn't contain any surfactants that I need to worry about rinsing or leaving residues. A boil in the detergent, a boiling water rinse, dry, and acetone bath just to make sure.
I've been using nitrile gloves around the acetone and they hold up as long as I need them to. It looks like latex should be a good choice for acetone, hydrochloride acid, and limited service with nitric acid. This should cover pretty well what you're using them for. What about any sort of powder coating on them?  Are you washing your hands after putting the gloves on?  Fresh pair every time?
You'll get this!  And you'll be richer for the experience.   
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 14, 2018, 11:02:02 AM
I did the same as Earl with respect to degreasing. Folks' methods vary a bit whether they use something like Simple Green in an ultrasonic cleaner or boil using a heavy duty dishwasher or parts prep solution.  I opted to boil with a bit of TSP detergent that can be found in the paint section at the hardware store since it is the basic ingredient of commercial dishwasher detergents and doesn't contain any surfactants that I need to worry about rinsing or leaving residues. A boil in the detergent, a boiling water rinse, dry, and acetone bath just to make sure.
I've been using nitrile gloves around the acetone and they hold up as long as I need them to. It looks like latex should be a good choice for acetone, hydrochloride acid, and limited service with nitric acid. This should cover pretty well what you're using them for. What about any sort of powder coating on them?  Are you washing your hands after putting the gloves on?  Fresh pair every time?
You'll get this!  And you'll be richer for the experience.

No powder on the gloves. I'm not washing my hands after putting the gloves on, usually before.

I now have 2 bins with acetone in it. A pre-soak and a clean-soak. One of them has yellowed a bit. My guess is from placing stuff that I had used EvapoRust on.
Eh. I'll do something tonight. Not sure what. A boil, a wipe, scotchbrite. I dunno. Something :)

Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: sberres on March 14, 2018, 12:26:35 PM
I was serious about the gloves. Maybe a little wipedown with some acetone after donning?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 14, 2018, 12:37:10 PM
I was serious about the gloves. Maybe a little wipedown with some acetone after donning?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I tried that last night and that's when I saw the oil come off.
The gloves get "loose" and I can feel them getting thin. If I were just handling the parts it would be fine, but I'm using steel wool and I think the gloves would rip.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: sberres on March 14, 2018, 01:02:44 PM
Yeah, I notice similar but it usually doesn't happen. Sometimes I'll rip a finger on the steel wool hand but during carding I don't care so much as I'm going to rinse parts in acetone again and put on fresh gloves while I dry the parts and re-apply the acid. That stuff I don't want on me! 
Now, that aircraft stripper was another story on the gloves. Whatever is in there is wholly incompatible with nitrile!  I had to switch to latex or pvc or something until I could get the parts sufficiently rinsed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 14, 2018, 03:08:22 PM
Yeah, I notice similar but it usually doesn't happen. Sometimes I'll rip a finger on the steel wool hand but during carding I don't care so much as I'm going to rinse parts in acetone again and put on fresh gloves while I dry the parts and re-apply the acid. That stuff I don't want on me! 
Now, that aircraft stripper was another story on the gloves. Whatever is in there is wholly incompatible with nitrile!  I had to switch to latex or pvc or something until I could get the parts sufficiently rinsed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This^^^^
The process is sensitive, but nothing crazy.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 14, 2018, 06:28:11 PM
The oil didn't work. The blemishes are still there.

I'll hopefully finish the slide tonight and the scotbrite and re-rust the frame.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180314/0d6510c95f026680ae048eca35370a5b.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 14, 2018, 11:17:11 PM
I don't really understand why I keep getting glove marks.

I dipped my gloved hands in acetone as well as washed the gloves in the sink. There should be no oil...however they still left marks on my slide a little bit.

So I just tried to clean them off as best I could. I boiled the slide for 30 min instead of neutralizing which left some water marks for some reason. I carded them off without touching the slide with my gloved hands.

Then I oiled the slide. It turned out ok.

The frame: I re-scotchbrited it. My gloves were still making marks. Even after more acetone and a dawn dish washing rinse.

So I out my hanging wire on the frame and just held it with the wire, roughing it up.

I wiped with acetone, rusted it and it's boiling now.

For carding I'm going to use another pad of steel wool to hold the frame. I can't risk holding it with my gloves anymore. Too much wasted effort. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180315/7233179eee3eac9f4ff2c408923e9d0d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180315/9fe8f4ac0d5c776fb59ad84aa98e47a4.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180315/17604e80607fc7713da58b6a1afbeff7.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 14, 2018, 11:44:03 PM
The frame is out of boiling. I started to card it while holding onto another pad of steel wool. I slipped and the glove touched the front strap. Now there a blemish somehow.

I grabbed a paper towel and held the frame with it. No more issues.

Then going to boil for 30 min, clean and oil. It's a late night but I really want to finish this up.

My Cajun parts arrive tomorrow so there will be plenty of polished and other small tidbits to do. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180315/b3587d730132bb0ba3805a0394d04072.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 15, 2018, 12:48:33 AM
Finally!

The frame is out of final boil. I grabbed it with a paper towel and hit it with the steel wool. Dried it with a heat gun and oiled it up.

No blotchiness that I can see at this moment. We'll see in the morning.

Hopefully tomorrow night I can wipe the oil off and really see how this gun will look.

It may take a bit to get all the parts in the. Having issues with the barrel not fitting in the 10X bushing but the crown has been peened and needs to be fixed.

I have yet to polish the action so I'll need to do that before putting things back together. It should be straight forward. I've done that quite a bit.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180315/a0801169764db8a16aac0a11e489408c.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180315/b29e58bf2a544e99b4833f0864a9eccf.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180315/2292c9a7990dcb193ed01a9eab4b4e14.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 15, 2018, 07:50:22 PM
Wiped of motor oil

I'll do some parts assembly tonight.
USPS is really horrible and I always get delayed delivery so I don't have my Cajun order in yet. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180315/104d241d2a5b4eb6f9e614143d663973.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180315/514c2f07eaf747c4ff52bd16d1132707.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180315/9d5fd411719291ce0d05b30edfefe881.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Mccian on March 15, 2018, 10:27:00 PM
I hope you are very proud.......turned out great!
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: sberres on March 15, 2018, 11:30:38 PM
Sure does look nice!  Now I can't wait until I can get the blue going on mine. It's only going to happen in the garage and it's just way too cold at night still.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 16, 2018, 12:09:25 AM
I don't remember the last time I was this fond of a gun I completed.

It's definitely not perfect. Some smudges here and there. The frame is slightly lighter than the slide and controls. I hope it darkens a bit over time.

This particular gun will be a non-classic look. More of a fun gun.

It's getting:
* polished 10X bushing
* black SAO straight trigger
* blued CGW race hammer
* CGW EZD sights
* haven't decided on grips
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180316/8ff727f668d43f97fa4a02e3e8cf249a.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180316/9b189cb7fd225bd6870a31b2f2d2254e.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180316/1cd9180928889890d04a7db82e078050.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180316/27eac6a18da3d5beaff3734b69e5ba29.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180316/dbf2ad527df0c30e08e8c2db801c5da6.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180316/7cdcfcb2dd6d49b409e2729750368a0f.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 16, 2018, 12:11:41 AM
Which grips do you guys like (going for more race than classic)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180316/eb90cfdfe4e27a2d3a886ecc87da127e.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180316/8ed77d5175ff09da051e9cdaeb5c4b63.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180316/50024c97d13df7481b55b26141ad183e.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180316/fec3c071a6cd84fc5c380cac7ffe85b4.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180316/a5a7c30d0c0febb0811a802b28d82bac.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180316/0dcf6b92bb0e53eac3fba14c1ce4af0c.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180316/b9242ae2b6721d21c44b0e0baf445f22.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180316/12af42d10bf0b03e96f1467d8259322e.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: steel on March 16, 2018, 09:09:23 AM
I like the silver grips in the last couple of pictures.  Thanks for documenting and sharing you adventure.  I've really enjoyed the verbiage and pictures.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 16, 2018, 10:01:12 AM
I like the silver grips in the last couple of pictures.  Thanks for documenting and sharing you adventure.  I've really enjoyed the verbiage and pictures.

Thanks. There's more to come, but likely not as interesting.
I don't remember ever screwing up a polishing and tuning of a CZ.

This one will have all CGW parts in it as well as the externally visible modifications. Race hammer + Sear. Extended firing pin, reduced hammer spring etc etc.

I may order up some grips tonight. The ones in the pic are actually Titanium not silver. I think they're hard to find right now. Maybe I'll order up some silver ones just for variety's sake.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: sberres on March 16, 2018, 11:08:38 AM
I think it looks very nice!  You should be pleased.
As far as grips go, the wood looks super classy!  But you want race.
The black ones look really cool.
But the silver ones in the last couple pics look dead-sexy!
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 16, 2018, 11:15:47 AM
I think it looks very nice!  You should be pleased.
As far as grips go, the wood looks super classy!  But you want race.
The black ones look really cool.
But the silver ones in the last couple pics look dead-sexy!

Thanks.
The next pre-b will get the wood grips, curved trigger, CGW ring hammer and 10X blued bushing. Hopefully keeping a classy look.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: The Guardian on March 16, 2018, 02:43:18 PM
Where is the “silver grip” band-wagon......all aboard  ;D
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: M1A4ME on March 16, 2018, 03:37:42 PM
Turned out real nice looking.  If anyone looks close enough to tell you they see flaws, tell'em to jump in the lake!  Head first in the shallow water.

Now that it's blued, be sure to keep it wiped off with a nice oily rag to insure you don't get it started rusting.  And, every so often, pull the grips and wipe under them, too.  That salt/sweat will work it's way up under the grips.  I only see the pits on my Combat Commander when I take the grips off, but darn it, I still know they're there.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: eastman on March 16, 2018, 09:43:58 PM
I'm going to go against the current and vote half checkered wood grips on this pistol.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 16, 2018, 10:13:45 PM
Looks good, congrats!
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 16, 2018, 10:18:13 PM
Thanks all. I'm very happy with it even though it's not perfect.

Here's a pic of the inside.
I think it's really cool the inside is blued as well as the outside. All production guns I've seen don't finish the inside very well. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180317/6670114f2fd36b3a94dcc5baa0cf7054.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: rhart on March 17, 2018, 01:07:01 PM
Looks pretty darn good overall - good job!
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 24, 2018, 01:08:38 AM
It's been a while. My CGW parts were in the mail and I also was away for work this week.

My barrel was peened and would not fit into the 10x bushing. I was just going to sand out the peening but reached out to SP01SHADOW and he informed me that peening on the outside often causes material to be pushed into the inside. Thus the bore may not be concentric.

He offered to help rehab my barrel as I don't have the tools. What a nice guy.

So my slide and barrel are with him.

Tonight I polished my CGW and frame parts and got the frame 90% done. I still need to set the safety and trigger screws


I polished these parts with 800, 1500 and then buff with Mothers mag polish.

It took about 2 hours.

Then I threw on some temporary grips and test fitted my Matte Stainless slide just to see how it looked.

My trigger breaks at 2 pounds 8 ounces which is pretty nice. I expect it to drop lower as the gun is used more. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180324/9baab040b23b7c618cc680d79487c27c.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180324/b163b5e1f5877cb409f6fd7e49695576.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180324/103556cec1420eae37ab8a4af505c316.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180324/0dfae6cf223c68c49e1c0edea80d82df.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180324/01cfa6482670efa2032d4d96c35e75df.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180324/d16f0b6d87784ddfdb464ce9310914d3.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180324/b74b8f1afde95c78390bc2a3ebfa272f.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180324/65b6d89cf3cda16f70b52feb5769dd7e.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 29, 2018, 09:43:26 PM
I got some help with my barrel from Sp01shadow and he shipped it back today. He flush cut the barrel and target crowned it. This effectively removed the peening.

I polished the firing pin channel, put the slide back together and polished the barrel hood just a tad.

Then set my sear safety screw, trigger travel screws and she's pretty much done.

I am not great at taking pics.

Not bad for my first bluing.


The imperfections :
*Frame is lighter than the slide
*Beavertail is better but will still be annoying because I think it's too sharp of an edge now
*A few tiny smudge marks in the bluing that I believe are permanent. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180330/326d4f706ac0996fb3f624744ac8af91.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180330/db7611101f0a253f2e0cd611654770d4.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180330/bfd70f83bb46f575fde621ea01e7efb8.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180330/68e2c330eb7fea5b7e7812a785879e28.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180330/3b3c4a4eb3b6a4d26cc3135791eac3cc.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180330/5c69f02ead7937f01d80cb72e52e0f94.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180330/57fe47255d916dceff9129a6cce7cc1a.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: myczaccount on March 29, 2018, 09:52:05 PM
Wow, just wow. Absolutely stunning!
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 29, 2018, 10:32:59 PM
Looks nice! You could always extend that beavertail now that you have welding supplies coming for the compact. ;-)

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 29, 2018, 10:40:32 PM
Looks nice! You could always extend that beavertail now that you have welding supplies coming for the compact. ;-)

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
Yea... I may just keep it as is. I don't feel like re-doing the bluing. Well we will see.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 29, 2018, 10:46:13 PM
Ugh...
I could reblue just the frame after adding to the beavertail.

Then I could make them match.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 29, 2018, 10:47:43 PM
Ugh...
I could reblue just the frame after adding to the beavertail.

Then I could make them match.
It's an affliction isn't it? ;-)

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 29, 2018, 10:51:39 PM
Ugh...
I could reblue just the frame after adding to the beavertail.

Then I could make them match.
It's an affliction isn't it? ;-)

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
I would have to say so.

I am watching more pre-b's on Gunbroker. I don't know why.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 29, 2018, 10:52:03 PM
I've redone rust blue jobs on two guns so far, my VZ70 and a Winchester rifle for a buddy. Redoing the one for my buddy hurt a little, but ultimately I was pleased with them both and glad I did it. It gets easier each time.

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Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 29, 2018, 10:53:57 PM
Ugh...
I could reblue just the frame after adding to the beavertail.

Then I could make them match.
It's an affliction isn't it? ;-)

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I would have to say so.

I am watching more pre-b's on Gunbroker. I don't know why.
Me too, although at this point I can resist. I think SP01SHADOW has 15 or so pre-b's. Next for me is a 2011 build.

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Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Bowenbuilt on March 29, 2018, 11:27:10 PM
Very nice looking Transitional. That is a keeper! Would make a great heirloom. I like the flush cut look!
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on June 01, 2018, 10:31:58 PM
An update and to bring things up from the dead.

After my eventual success with adding a larger beavertail to my other gun I realized I will need to make that modification to this pre-b.

So I may as well modify it some more before re-bluing it.

This one has a polished barrel bushing and recessed crown. I love the look of a large bright muzzle. I saw someone had crowned the bushing as well as the barrel so I decided to try the same.

I like it.

Follow-up to come on the beavertail and probably the flushing of the slide stop lever as well.


Before

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180602/ce4f84ca1fe7a2762509c2fc488bfd71.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180602/9efe5223fe1682843e438f3087df2e1c.jpg)


After
 (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180602/fc135ad31a5b1548d06ff28c139880f4.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180602/70c5cf5c7b9c0a1151682ad92a175736.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on June 01, 2018, 10:37:00 PM
Looks nice!

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Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on August 26, 2018, 10:54:59 PM
It never ends.

I decided I need to extend the beavertail which would require me to re-blue at least the frame.
While I'm at it I'm going to blue the CGW race hammer. The finish they have on the hammer doesn't match the blued finish of the gun.
I'm also going to modify the slide top lever (flush it) and then round the nose of the frame which is at a 90 degree angle. (for press checks)

Hopefully you're not totally bored of me yet. :)

Progress will be a bit slower than before I think. Recovering from hand surgery.

I think the steps will be:
1. Strip gun
2. Remove all oils from frame, hammer, slide stop lever
3. Mechanically bring the finish of the frame to bare metal (I want to preserve the bluing inside the frame because that was such a pain to do)
4. Weld on the beavertail
5. Cut the slide slide stop lever, bevel the frame
6. Round the nose
7. Re-blue and hope that it matches the slide
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on August 26, 2018, 10:56:34 PM
Some pics of the areas I need to work on. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180827/b494d6d0f03e6b67cbd35ec2149cf94a.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180827/b7a6dbce8b3befe4983b78c397fec232.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180827/cc61d4be4dec741dce906df659ad7742.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180827/3cd4d6640523fbe4674ba7d25a282db1.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180827/13cd4659bc1935000e880eef79e3eba0.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: The Guardian on August 26, 2018, 11:07:59 PM

7. Re-blue and hope that it matches the slide

My experience has been that the slide and frame tend to come out slightly different most of the time.......usually its pretty subtle.  Not sure why, maybe they are slightly different metals??  Regardless, thanks for taking the time to post the happenings with the project  :)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on August 26, 2018, 11:15:15 PM

7. Re-blue and hope that it matches the slide

My experience has been that the slide and frame tend to come out slightly different most of the time.......usually its pretty subtle.  Not sure why, maybe they are slightly different metals??  Regardless, thanks for taking the time to post the happenings with the project  :)
You're right.
It doesn't currently match and I blued the same number of times. The slide is darker.

I may just try and blue the frame a few extra times.

The hard part is knowing when to stop because the color changes once it's coated in oil.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: The Guardian on August 26, 2018, 11:27:22 PM

7. Re-blue and hope that it matches the slide

My experience has been that the slide and frame tend to come out slightly different most of the time.......usually its pretty subtle.  Not sure why, maybe they are slightly different metals??  Regardless, thanks for taking the time to post the happenings with the project  :)
You're right.
It doesn't currently match and I blued the same number of times. The slide is darker.

I may just try and blue the frame a few extra times.

The hard part is knowing when to stop because the color changes once it's coated in oil.

Trial and error I suppose is in order......applying the oil is kind of the mystery, it's the true "reveal" for all the work that got it to that point....pretty cool  8)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on August 28, 2018, 12:07:37 AM
Did the slide stop and beveled the frame.

Also started to sand the bluing away with 320. I'm surprised at how difficult it is to get down to bare metal. The bluing is pretty sturdy.

I think I angled the slide stop just a tad too much for my taste but I won't notice it much when blued.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180828/e00c8da927c16c312b24e5791011cb69.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180828/879dd6c03e81b63df0884ea3d871c4c8.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180828/e0cb64a7c8f6bccb0083cee33c2c3712.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: sberres on August 28, 2018, 03:19:03 PM
  Rust bluing is one of those finishes which exploit the fact that the oxide form of the metal is actually somewhat more durable than the parent metal from which it formed and is really no different than the principles which enhance the corrosion resistance of aluminum or copper (and various alloys) through the formation of the patina. For as simple a process as it is its utility is quite remarkable and why I would favor it even over a (perhaps) somewhat more attractive, high luster, hot caustic blue where the coloration is not nearly as durable.  And it really wasn’t very long ago that I thought all bluing was either “factory” or something like the low-end cold blue products. This is a great place to learn.
  I hope that things go much more smoothly for you when you get to the beavertail extension this time. I’m pretty sure that it will now that you’ve gotten the gas hose issue ironed out. I just couldn't imagine that your metal was that hot or polluted to cause such issues time and again. And it sure didn't occur to me that your shielding was compromised by such a thing. Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on August 28, 2018, 05:35:53 PM
  Rust bluing is one of those finishes which exploit the fact that the oxide form of the metal is actually somewhat more durable than the parent metal from which it formed and is really no different than the principles which enhance the corrosion resistance of aluminum or copper (and various alloys) through the formation of the patina. For as simple a process as it is its utility is quite remarkable and why I would favor it even over a (perhaps) somewhat more attractive, high luster, hot caustic blue where the coloration is not nearly as durable.  And it really wasn’t very long ago that I thought all bluing was either “factory” or something like the low-end cold blue products. This is a great place to learn.
  I hope that things go much more smoothly for you when you get to the beavertail extension this time. I’m pretty sure that it will now that you’ve gotten the gas hose issue ironed out. I just couldn't imagine that your metal was that hot or polluted to cause such issues time and again. And it sure didn't occur to me that your shielding was compromised by such a thing. Keep up the good work!

I agree on the learning part. I've learned (and still am) on all the different types of "bluing" that are done. Some by cotton swap, some by heat, some superficially etc.

The welding should go much smoother this type. I hope.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: The Guardian on August 28, 2018, 05:39:38 PM
I'm pretty sure the solution used to do the rust bluing can also be used to remove it as well, kind of pulls double duty as it were...application & removal.....may want to try that....just an FYI.  Then do the prep sanding for the next finishing process.  :)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on August 28, 2018, 11:54:53 PM
I'm pretty sure the solution used to do the rust bluing can also be used to remove it as well, kind of pulls double duty as it were...application & removal.....may want to try that....just an FYI.  Then do the prep sanding for the next finishing process.  :)
Thanks I may try that.

I hit it with a wire wheel on a Dremel and that didn't seem to work. It did smooth the surface though.

I do wonder if any dark spots I leave will stay dark or whether the bluing will just even everything out.  i.e. Do I really need to surface prep to a uniform bare steel.

Tonight I started the welding work.
I cut a tab from some plain steel stock I had laying around and then tacked it in place.

Then with 7 or 8 passes I secured it on the underside (it's not the prettiest)

The professional welder I was going to was able to do this keeping the frame pretty cool. Every time I weld it gets really hot. I guess that's the difference between a pro and an out-of-practice amateur.

No big deal. I will clean it up nice in the end.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180829/c3934ed2738909585cb75a0fa09f77c5.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180829/0c931d8cd06430c56caf68000b2be239.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180829/8dbdcabcf491354eede0a510032018bd.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180829/d79dae2dd5afa4b49ad160a94bddc3b8.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180829/17e3e2526c314fb253c125b0f4ffe4ec.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180829/53f8df059aadf848bf511dbdc1a11f3f.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180829/62bc9f87eac024e5f49bdffe6686438c.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on August 29, 2018, 06:18:28 AM
Why not use Evaporust?

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Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on August 29, 2018, 06:44:58 AM
Why not use Evaporust?

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
After hand surgery it's going to be hard for me to reblue the inside of the frame. If I submerge in Evaporust I will have to.

So if I can avoid that I want to. Maybe I can't.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on August 29, 2018, 06:46:07 AM
Why not use Evaporust?

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After hand surgery it's going to be hard for me to reblue the inside of the frame. If I submerge in Evaporust I will have to.

So if I can avoid that I want to. Maybe I can't.
You don't necessarily have to submerge, just a thought.

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Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on August 29, 2018, 07:07:53 AM
Yes that's a good idea.
I think I'll try and finish up the welding and maybe soak a paper towel in it and see whether I can get that to work.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on August 31, 2018, 12:00:39 AM
Night 2 of welding and grinding.
I think I need to sharpen and extend my electrode a bit. I need more accurate and cooler welds.

The rough shape is there compared to an S2 but a bunch of small pits and edges I need to clean up.

It seems so simple but to do perfectly will probably take me another 6 or 7 nights of welding and grinding.

This time I was trying to create a pocket for the hammer to fall into like a 1911. Not sure if it'll end up that way. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180831/1977048b9f1deaa2d64f37f247a086da.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180831/0b50c6882358208e8b4712525b13d0b2.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180831/c9266bdd0db2b76fb5699f65e2d2645b.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180831/5d51e662638505f5bc32e65ddb2e6857.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180831/130a71bf4c0670e748d7eddb8211710d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180831/e19b62050f266a62012dfe1eba8c9382.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180831/790f3940f713113dae6aeeab4e44ff80.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180831/593e152430fac52b7bdb3fe4f4337f65.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on August 31, 2018, 06:37:04 AM
Getting there! Most people don't understand how much trial and error is involved with metal work. Not a hobby for the faint of heart.

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Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Hypo on September 03, 2018, 12:46:54 PM
Really enjoying this thread.
It is an inspiration.
I have a Tri-Star L-120 that I am now thinking about extending the beaver tail on and sweeping it upwards.


Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Old-Duckman on September 03, 2018, 01:58:06 PM
Getting there! Most people don't understand how much trial and error is involved with metal work. Not a hobby for the faint of heart.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

But for those who have worked wood and metal the best thing about metal is when you have finished, it doesn't move. The same can not be said of wood.

Just saw this thread today and only looked at the most recent posts. Interesting task and it looks to be coming along nicely.

I'm curious as to why you are rust bluing instead of polishing and sending it out to be hot blued. Last year (or 2016..?) I bought a surplus 75 pre-B mine had the squared off trigger guard which I shaped to the round configuration and...of course uncovered a pit that needed to be welded. I was not at all adept with a TIG welder but I practiced, read up and gave it a shot. It turned out really well but I did send it out for hot bluing. A local shop charges only $50 if you bring the piece in disassembled and polished, which I did.

The original poly finish was difficult to remove. I tried paint stripper first..waste of time. I did get the old finish off by soda blasting. That took it down to where I was able to polish it up nicely. I do have a polishing motor and used soft felt wheels charged with 120 grit through 400 grit and finished the curved areas with a loose muslin wheel charged with 400 grit and used felt bobs on a Foredom flex shaft (charged with the same compounds) to do the areas that were unreachable when polishing on the wheel. I was very pleased with the finished results but under certain lighting the weld does show up as a slightly different color.

Looking forward to seeing pix of the finished piece.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on September 03, 2018, 02:45:34 PM
Getting there! Most people don't understand how much trial and error is involved with metal work. Not a hobby for the faint of heart.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

But for those who have worked wood and metal the best thing about metal is when you have finished, it doesn't move. The same can not be said of wood.

Just saw this thread today and only looked at the most recent posts. Interesting task and it looks to be coming along nicely.

I'm curious as to why you are rust bluing instead of polishing and sending it out to be hot blued. Last year (or 2016..?) I bought a surplus 75 pre-B mine had the squared off trigger guard which I shaped to the round configuration and...of course uncovered a pit that needed to be welded. I was not at all adept with a TIG welder but I practiced, read up and gave it a shot. It turned out really well but I did send it out for hot bluing. A local shop charges only $50 if you bring the piece in disassembled and polished, which I did.

The original poly finish was difficult to remove. I tried paint stripper first..waste of time. I did get the old finish off by soda blasting. That took it down to where I was able to polish it up nicely. I do have a polishing motor and used soft felt wheels charged with 120 grit through 400 grit and finished the curved areas with a loose muslin wheel charged with 400 grit and used felt bobs on a Foredom flex shaft (charged with the same compounds) to do the areas that were unreachable when polishing on the wheel. I was very pleased with the finished results but under certain lighting the weld does show up as a slightly different color.

Looking forward to seeing pix of the finished piece.
Hot bluing is prettier, but not nearly as durable as slow rust blue. Slow rust blue is also particularly well suited to diy application.

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Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on September 03, 2018, 03:11:06 PM
Getting there! Most people don't understand how much trial and error is involved with metal work. Not a hobby for the faint of heart.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

But for those who have worked wood and metal the best thing about metal is when you have finished, it doesn't move. The same can not be said of wood.

Just saw this thread today and only looked at the most recent posts. Interesting task and it looks to be coming along nicely.

I'm curious as to why you are rust bluing instead of polishing and sending it out to be hot blued. Last year (or 2016..?) I bought a surplus 75 pre-B mine had the squared off trigger guard which I shaped to the round configuration and...of course uncovered a pit that needed to be welded. I was not at all adept with a TIG welder but I practiced, read up and gave it a shot. It turned out really well but I did send it out for hot bluing. A local shop charges only $50 if you bring the piece in disassembled and polished, which I did.

The original poly finish was difficult to remove. I tried paint stripper first..waste of time. I did get the old finish off by soda blasting. That took it down to where I was able to polish it up nicely. I do have a polishing motor and used soft felt wheels charged with 120 grit through 400 grit and finished the curved areas with a loose muslin wheel charged with 400 grit and used felt bobs on a Foredom flex shaft (charged with the same compounds) to do the areas that were unreachable when polishing on the wheel. I was very pleased with the finished results but under certain lighting the weld does show up as a slightly different color.

Looking forward to seeing pix of the finished piece.
Doing this gun is both about the journey as well as the destination. While I could perhaps send it out for an easy bluing job, my preference for this gun is to try and accomplish everything myself. I've never done hot bluing but have Cerakoted, rust blued, parkerized, heat colored etc. All fun stuff.

I'm not opposed to sending out (I just spent 2 months modifying and metal prepping a compact which I sent out for hard chrome).

I think I prefer the rust blue over the hot blue finish. Something about the character of rust blue vs the more sterile hot blue. I also did not have any discoloration when I rust blued.

I also want to match the other pre-b I just finished.

I understand the pit in the trigger guard. It's happened to me on multiple guns in the exact same place.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180903/9dc818ea32c610df594c6e15a9e0de1a.jpg)


(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180903/55f18fcf1f7c7f2ca3995f608e0bebd8.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180903/0d6e2e0ab8119f26498b9223008c275d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180903/50cf9383783f6f84022305266d46472b.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on September 04, 2018, 10:22:48 AM
Really enjoying this thread.
It is an inspiration.
I have a Tri-Star L-120 that I am now thinking about extending the beaver tail on and sweeping it upwards.

Good luck. Just be patient.
I was thinking of doing the same on my P120. I don't know what finish I'd like applied to it though. It's silver Cerakote now. I dunno if I want to blue it, hard chrome it or whatever. Still not sure if I want to do that gun yet.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: sberres on September 20, 2018, 09:20:46 AM
Underwhere, how’s that beavertail extension with the pocket coming along?  Looks like something really difficult to duplicate well via weld-grind vs. machining the groove and very curious to see how it works out for you.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on September 20, 2018, 09:24:09 AM
Underwhere, how’s that beavertail extension with the pocket coming along?  Looks like something really difficult to duplicate well via weld-grind vs. machining the groove and very curious to see how it works out for you.
I've been meaning to get back to it. Last time I worked on it I added quite a bit of metal to the beavertail in the hopes of building it up a bit to grind it down.
If that doesn't work well I may cut off the beavertail closer to the hammer where it is naturally thicker and weld on a thicker piece of metal and grind that to shape.

But yeah I need to get back on it at some point.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on September 22, 2018, 11:20:08 PM
I got back on it tonight.
Grinding away my last welds trying to get a decent shape.

The last time I tried filling as much as possible so I could reshape as needed.

Here is what I have so far.
I definitely need to reweld this a few more times at least.

The issue I'm having is that the sides end up very thin. Almost sharp. Not sure what I'm going to do about it yet.

I could potentially make the beavertail narrower, taking the sides inwards and thus making it thicker. Not sure if I want to do that.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180923/c72950417331f82092d5ce6b06656e36.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180923/d49ad0fad9b121c352b0f8c04d3dfb86.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180923/203e67fb9d761ca9bf505c18399d509c.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180923/158517ef111715a689f36036705310c2.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180923/3f642ec7c22483414f55ef224a262a7d.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: sberres on September 27, 2018, 12:53:30 PM
  For future reference, and this being only how I would do it, I’d suggest deliberately building it up much more than what you’d originally think to allow yourself enough material to sculpt back down and avoid the thinning. This would include actually adding some width. Those small tabs that you’ve been adding are already thin and narrow and just don’t leave you with enough raw material to finish with.  It doesn’t really matter if you choose to add on raw stock or simply build it up/out with filler material; you have to allow enough to get back to your new minimum.
  Btw have I ever told you how sweet I think that HC compact turned out? 
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on September 27, 2018, 01:28:02 PM
  For future reference, and this being only how I would do it, I’d suggest deliberately building it up much more than what you’d originally think to allow yourself enough material to sculpt back down and avoid the thinning. This would include actually adding some width. Those small tabs that you’ve been adding are already thin and narrow and just don’t leave you with enough raw material to finish with.  It doesn’t really matter if you choose to add on raw stock or simply build it up/out with filler material; you have to allow enough to get back to your new minimum.
  Btw have I ever told you how sweet I think that HC compact turned out?
Yup. I didn't have pics before but I have been trying to build up quite a bit. I'm just out of practice :)

And thank you for the comment on the hard chrome compact. One of my favorites.

Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: sberres on September 28, 2018, 08:20:32 AM
Good to see that you’re back up and getting back around to your projects, too. The suspense is brutal!
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on October 06, 2018, 10:59:01 PM
Did a bit of welding tonight trying to build up the metal a bit.

Turned the welder down to 20amps to try and keep things tight and controlled.

I filled the top first and it ended up catering the sides inwards so I had to build the sides back up a bit.

Then I tried to add some to. The very thin part if the beavertail so I could thicken it a bit.

No grinding tonight. That'll come later. Losing a bit of steam lately. I need to re-motivate myself to get back on this. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181007/1f4cf4bede38114fc5f9686a229aaacb.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181007/4345bf87e6280970aea6d15ed911a9a7.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181007/87fa4e001c6ee3f9ae735d5cb48b7cbf.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181007/b8067c119f16f596fd8ccb2b10c2f060.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on October 08, 2018, 10:06:43 PM
After some grinding.
This is a slow process I'm just not great at.

I need to fill some holes, add some on the edges and regrind, shape some edges. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181009/36737db6ef869181efe8ab6c7ead421d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181009/32b297507092353a4e6457600661160a.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181009/4c683177bfa485a0b3c979388b3cda32.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181009/0f405b1db2b2a2250bc7f9221c04f0aa.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: copemech on October 11, 2018, 12:02:15 AM
i'm sorry, but this welding is just painful to watch.  Perhaps you might consider silicon bronze as a method. You will not need to get things near as hot and it will flow and fill a lot better. less cratering! O0
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on October 11, 2018, 12:08:54 AM
i'm sorry, but this welding is just painful to watch.  Perhaps you might consider silicon bronze as a method. You will not need to get things near as hot and it will flow and fill a lot better. less cratering! O0
Haha I know. I keep thinking that there are people on their computers and phones cringing at the sight of my posts.

In the end I know it'll end up OK. I may need to seek professional welding help as I have before.

Some people have offered some welding advice. I spent some time tonight practicing... But mild steel stock just reacts very differently than this beavertail.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: sberres on October 11, 2018, 01:57:47 PM
Keeping it all in steel will keep final finish options open. If brazing or silver solder is used the finish will be limited to a coating of some sort. Nothing wrong with that, just for consideration.
  Unfortunately once one gets some degree of oxidation started within the weld it can be very difficult to get rid of. As you’ve seen with your practice scrap pieces it welds fine when it’s new and clean. But get some oxide started and it will be soon sputtering and pitting, too. When metals get thin it get gets even easier to oxidize the non-shielded areas. And at this point you’re limited as the defects are below the surface.  Anything is more difficult to make flow once contamination is present. Hopefully it’s improving with each passing cycle. You must be a very patient man indeed!
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on October 11, 2018, 11:29:45 PM
So a bit of grinding tonight.
Not so bad. A few more welding sessions.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181012/c42fb89a80cd5cbc1f09e7d888e9cf93.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181012/ba10c5290ca9c41d548c468f2f383fc2.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181012/161b7962da95bb5e29c71e1eab33d9e0.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181012/7481239f0e3b2d6d3baf25843cbcb03c.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on October 13, 2018, 11:18:23 PM
After another welding session

And then I ran out of gas (literally).
I need to refill the tank so I'm delayed a few days. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181014/fe7430c8a507a8f1c07acf4091071a34.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181014/f4990375042c250f9fe85612f76deaa0.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181014/5b3fb222b85d257ffba40c929d51b0f1.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on October 20, 2018, 12:00:16 AM
OK I spared you all the multiple nights of welding and grinding... Sometimes doing that 3 sets of times per night. This one was an effort.

It's not perfect but I'm done. Would I do it again? Yes but I wouldn't start out the same way I did. I'll go into more detail in a subsequent post.

There are some very tiny holes. Given the casting quality and the contaminants I am not going to attempt to fix them.

I still need to finish sand it and blend the edges back into the frame. Easy stuff.

Those who don't tig weld - if you get near a thin edge, the edge may pull back on you leaving a crater. Then you need to spend time filling it and grinding it back to shape. I must have done this 20+ times.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181020/01e32b63426b227749f35b509a05a400.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181020/00866f9d98bfbefe8f8b5ea42e2ba73b.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181020/d5a0dbab7cc45ba87047aa3d5bdae7f8.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181020/39948d252258c40ace7869ea5641cb2f.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181020/4e1be13f7d4bf6ab8c7a62e6d8a1d0ee.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181020/ec9f6cccf7a1ee7e1ca1649eb4e3598e.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on October 20, 2018, 12:07:41 AM
Let's start with what I actually did do before going into what I think I should have done:
1. I never planned on welding the beavertail.
2. I tried to up sweep the original beavertail and ended up running out of metal to do so. This left me with a short and sharp edge.
3. I decided to fix this by welding
4. I needed to practice a lot but didn't.
5. Every time I ground down the welds I did so as if the beavertail was going to be finished. This always left me with thin edges which drew back every time I got near them with the torch. It made things very difficult.

What I should have done:
1. Stripped the finish off the frame
2. Weld the edges to build more metal up...adding more to the edges to make them thicker so they are less likely to draw back when welded.
3. Don't touch any of the topside of the beavertail near the hammer pocket.
4. Grind away hopefully only what I've welded to create the shape I want.
5. Do the edges last so you don't make them thinner and harder to work on.


Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on October 20, 2018, 07:47:34 AM
 Man, that turned out great. Sometimes I wonder why I don't just buy a Shadow 2 and focus on shooting, then another old 75 catches my eye.
 I have a couple friends that have TIG welders. When asked about doing a project like this, both said no way they'd try it. I'd like to learn, but if I'm honest about the time commitment, it's not feasible for me.
 Congrats on getting this one finished, I'm sure you had some doubts along the way.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Mercs on October 20, 2018, 10:45:32 AM
Once again you got to the point where most of us would give up, but you came out a winner and it looks good man


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: sberres on October 20, 2018, 08:49:22 PM
Looks like you got it, man!  The profile looks great and I’ll bet she looks even awesomer when you get the finish done. Love the comments; review your notes before you start the next one and you’ll be all set. Have you decided on the finish yet?
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on October 20, 2018, 08:54:45 PM
Looks like you got it, man!  The profile looks great and I’ll bet she looks even awesomer when you get the finish done. Love the comments; review your notes before you start the next one and you’ll be all set. Have you decided on the finish yet?
Thanks.
It'll be rust blued to match the slide. I decided I'm going to Rust blue the frame and see if I can match the slide. If not I'll re-rust blue both together.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on October 20, 2018, 11:16:14 PM
After sanding a bit to smooth things out I found a bit more that was hidden. Now I'm thinking of welding again. *gulp*

The edges kill me. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181021/d629fb443e7e4d261af1a24fbf19f7cb.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181021/a222f0870ed5a5df44a62eac6f6f001b.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181021/1583d7ff98733ad76a6fc073f0b4a37a.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181021/e4b8ca8091d02b1b16019646b0c636ec.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on October 21, 2018, 05:50:49 PM
I'm a glutton for punishment.
I started re-welding it all over again.

Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on October 21, 2018, 08:12:26 PM
This is what happens.
I've ground the metal down so thin that any sort of welding causes the edges to draw back... Which necessitates more building.

Is I'm going to take another pass at a lot of building up with higher heat to remove the porosity (which causes those small holes).

Hopefully when I grind down I find less and less holes. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181022/fa1c788778db01f7dcbd83eda53d8661.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181022/09382d30ab06fc0baef94f05c50d3422.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on October 21, 2018, 09:34:47 PM
I'm taking a totally different route now.
I keep thinking back on how CZ does things. Their beavertail is thick and had no sharp edges like mine.

It got me thinking... Maybe I build mine up as thick as CZ. Make the top convex instead of flattened. Building it up this way would give me thicker edges and overall thicker beavertail which allows me more flexibility in heat when welding (so I don't burn through)

The bottom side is perfect shaped but the heat burned through. So I added a bit so I could reshape it. The topside got a lot of filler metal, higher in the center and lower on the sides.

I ran out of gas again. Gotta go get some more tomorrow.

It never ends!

Factory CZ beavertail pic included. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181022/f1f9c4ea081c8bf21f8dcffafb28d44e.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181022/1b7c1f87b0f4cbc062ce26f2d2da0a0f.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181022/9205c2cdd5f385c5572497f288aa68dc.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181022/6c4d7494a63f106487b682634998c164.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on November 10, 2018, 07:19:44 AM
It's been a while and I couldn't get back to this until last night. Some preliminary grinding and shaping.

Most of you must be getting so sick of this.

I need the blend the top where it meets the hammer area.

The beavertail is much thicker than before so I'm hoping any welding will be easier. I have to reweld the bottom. Too much porosity there. The top is decent but needs a few spots as well.

The hammer does clear. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181110/e05b32898c073f57630c4d4088f4c3e6.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181110/853d5ab8e6012b6a2afa7cb409ee5301.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181110/54e82ba51ff04920e300ce345992f4c6.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181110/8b281eb7fbb5a0f504d17865ad0aaa35.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on December 14, 2018, 10:51:56 PM
Finally found some time to get back at it.
Did a little sculpting tonight.
More welding and sculpting again.

There is still some porosity I need to take care of. Then finish sculpting and then take the edges back as the last step.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to have some pin holes left. I'm OK with it. I just want to finish this gun.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181215/656b667453ef80f8560ae3dd143f7038.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181215/1e0c1b7464d9c9b22c6a7fc8fbf90486.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181215/fddd734db5d36ccfcc45458a5c28bdbe.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: sberres on January 09, 2019, 07:31:09 PM
Underwhere, you’re keeping us hanging here. How’s this project coming along? 
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on January 09, 2019, 08:03:40 PM
Underwhere, you’re keeping us hanging here. How’s this project coming along?
I've been a bit unmotivated.
I took the frame to my welder friend last week and he said I was "chasing the weld" which I certainly feel is accurate.

He mentioned I can use heat sinks to absorb the heat when I weld on one side so that the amount of oxidation that occurs on the other side is minimized.

He also said I was polishing the metal too much before welding.... That I needed a bit of roughness to it.

Again my issue is the pits. As soon as I strike a weld, another pit appears. It's a game of cat and mouse.

I'll get back to it at some point.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: sberres on January 09, 2019, 08:35:35 PM
  Thanks for the update. It gets stressful and discouraging when things don’t quite go as planned but it’s all part of the learning process and something that will ultimately benefit you in future projects. Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 17, 2019, 09:51:27 PM
It's been a while but I have a tiny bit of motivation.

Last time I saw my professional welder friend he told me to use a heat sink on the opposite side of the beavertail while welding.

He also warned me of cold weather welding and the condensation that can develop, then turn to vapor and contaiminate the weld. The solution is to pre-heat. He showed me by taking a flat piece of metal and heating it up with a propane torch. Instantly it glossed over with condensation and then burned off.

The idea is that the vapor will get into the weld if I don't pre-heat the metal to the point where condensation is not possible.

So tonight I precision fit (5lb hammer) a copper pipe as a heat sink and then  acetoned it and the frame.

If I have time I'm going to hit the welder yet again. I'm not sure how to secure it to the frame.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190218/2366c45304146c0d66cda4f502c98854.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190218/a7effc2e88462c44d83d56ab4636df40.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190218/e0ac850b90b1dca51c8a4fd1774ffff1.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 17, 2019, 09:52:02 PM
I also just realized that this is almost a year in the making. Wow that's embarrassing
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 17, 2019, 11:54:00 PM
Hoping this is almost it
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190218/8529568388446170ab101cf3bc775f38.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190218/cb933753ed2490156974dbc51e6eb09d.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 18, 2019, 09:41:47 PM
Hopefully just one more welding session tonight.

The top finally looks good. One tiny pit but I'm not going to chase it.

The bottom has a few but thankfully not close to the edges. I think I can take care of those.

The pre-heat and heat sink worked. No burn-through or more puts after last night's welding.

I also made sure to make this wider than it should be so I have room to shave the sides down to normal width. This will prevent a sharp edge from forming between the top and bottom of the beavertail.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190219/46c83f1b397befbad4d668e2804af9a2.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190219/6820fd6384f7afc822e2d8146a27461c.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190219/1e43e9023d015f707a428a75d06f15ed.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190219/3d1fc31efc28585c899c426d47ff9b20.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 18, 2019, 11:40:52 PM
Almost!

I ended up chasing the top (successfully)

The bottom still needs work. Just the tip has pits. Everything else is fine.

I think. If I have enough free time I may be bluing by this weekend. Then I'll need to figure out how to match the slide.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 19, 2019, 11:38:45 PM
Uncle!

I welded and ground maybe 7 or 8 more times and this is where I'm going to stop.

I'm not frustrated, I just think I've hit the point where I don't think additional effort will be productive. There's also risk every time that I may make things worse.

So this pits will remain and I'll blue over them. It is what it is.

I already know How I'll do this on my next gun. I'll add to the existing beavertail and then grind down instead of cutting off the beavertail and adding one. Hindsight.

So now on to cleaning up the frame with 220, 320 and 400 and then prepping for blue.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190220/1069c29f5adf3472a6b32b8ae3badf7d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190220/56851b9826dd549abd1bd830f9127200.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190220/cdb68bb268ec74f2aee5c01bc1f296f6.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190220/31df4b1ca876d51c488a3b831ac10b6d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190220/3b4f56bcbf41a49bc235068d3feeb4e8.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 21, 2019, 12:11:37 AM
Here it is 220'd and then 320'd.

Working on the 400 grit.

I forget how perfect I need to get it. I also forget how I managed to see the areas that need work because of the glare from lighting.

The inside is still blued from before.
The slide is still blued from before.

The lighting makes it seem like there isn't much contrast. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190221/956e509c0b850abeccd3604cd0d79155.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190221/6f19af125c0c5a555b758db809a1280c.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190221/daf989a56930642ecbd8aa492f22f70d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190221/57ca2139497aac316fe0bbfa161c0bcd.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190221/9cd3c4426463e447c26a97b66d2195ae.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 21, 2019, 09:27:24 PM
Here is the gun after wet sanding with 400.

Some of the bluing is still there.
Hard to see in certain light. I may try and blue over them. They almost appear like shadows.

I don't want to submerge in Evaporust because the inside of the gun is nicely blued already and man that was a pain in the butt.

Here are the bad pics of the beavertail after deep cleaning. I hope the bluing hides it a bit. I know it won't be ideal.

So tonight I'm going to let the frame, hammer, slide stop and any of the other small parts I need to blue sit overnight in acetone.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190222/c9ee94a0d4c83b4e1f8a2992f5bb22ab.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190222/2844d6c0c0ab2b35aa16a4b403c04703.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190222/857e137c76db2e6aeaf82e29acfb6f22.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190222/17e1e940cc99b9388fb914dd777ea0da.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190222/7ea6efba4b79b7b6b910292c07ba50b4.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190222/5d7dec8af6695288581948c2c1a73025.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 22, 2019, 10:29:00 PM
Bluing Cycle #1
As always: problems

After wet sanding with 400 I let the gun, hammer and slide stop sit overnight in Acetone.

I took them all out and washed with water and Dawn (wearing gloves). There was already noticeable surface rust from sitting in Acetone (pics).

I dried them and then blued them with Mark Lee's Express blue so I could match the slide.

And I dunno what it is about me rust bluing things but it never comes out clean.

It's blotchy again.

I wonder if the rust that built up on the frame while in Acetone contributed to the blotchyness.

I may hit it with a Scotch Brite pad and blue again.

It never ends. :)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190223/351f1406ddd0e012fea4d29eb0834bd4.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190223/f946b6e561aab501e6e61ec9b597ea29.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190223/d276abd507e52dfcaaa678d4bdd6c1e2.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190223/2fda44dfbcc4242cb082849b6a0dd8e3.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190223/aaad577417331e3a3e0c2504e2abd61a.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190223/ed23c67a82affed57fce1af48fac1a7c.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190223/e8bf055708bb08daab537be89602bf1b.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 23, 2019, 07:21:39 AM
This morning I tried a Scotch Brite pad dipped in acetone. It sort of removed the spots but in other places it did not.

I'm considering:
1. dropping everything in Evaporust
2. Laying an Evaporust soaked paper towel over the frame
3. just bluing over it and hoping for the best.

The reason why I am hesitant to dip in Evaporust is that the inside of the gun is already very well blued... And after hand surgery it's harder to get inside there again.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190223/212f527dde35617d2e98fe708d4a21f4.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190223/b6a596c6c9e3aee644a1c5f8a301b6ef.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190223/be9e65392b7c5f15dab1b7a06fb22dd3.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on February 23, 2019, 07:31:23 AM
I've used red scotchbrite and I believe it's too fine. Maybe try resanding with 320 before bluing.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 23, 2019, 07:35:48 AM
I've used red scotchbrite and I believe it's too fine. Maybe try resanding with 320 before bluing.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
Yea that's a good idea.
Maybe I didn't sand enough and now the bluing provides the contrast for me to see it.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on February 23, 2019, 07:41:22 AM
I've used red scotchbrite and I believe it's too fine. Maybe try resanding with 320 before bluing.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
Yea that's a good idea.
Maybe I didn't sand enough and now the bluing provides the contrast for me to see it.
I had a similar issue with my last attempt. The temptation to make it smoother gets me every time. Also if it's rusting in your acetone, you might want to change it out. I have parts that have been in acetone for months w/o rusting. I've had lacquer thinner and acetone come with water in it straight out of the can. It's actually common with cheap wash thinner.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 23, 2019, 09:21:27 AM
OK here it is after 320

My hands are killing me :)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190223/97303f6f60faae7b77bb52bbbd8b7e19.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190223/aa1fd58c71db1db85544c7e39d060789.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190223/a3447b2e5a4b9abd3bfbed2fd97239bf.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190223/f91f8e827d5d4d399dbd9b06dace5e34.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190223/edc82f640ddfdd5fb9baa7929ac8cf25.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190223/0d573fbd9563ca6996b48b56c2611207.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 23, 2019, 09:52:20 AM
I've used red scotchbrite and I believe it's too fine. Maybe try resanding with 320 before bluing.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
Yea that's a good idea.
Maybe I didn't sand enough and now the bluing provides the contrast for me to see it.
I had a similar issue with my last attempt. The temptation to make it smoother gets me every time. Also if it's rusting in your acetone, you might want to change it out. I have parts that have been in acetone for months w/o rusting. I've had lacquer thinner and acetone come with water in it straight out of the can. It's actually common with cheap wash thinner.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
So what would you do now?
Freshly sanded to 320 but not rinsed.

Would you rinse with Dawn and water and forego any more acetone?

Dry then blue?
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on February 23, 2019, 09:54:43 AM
I would wash with degreaser, blow dry with heat and soak in acetone for 5min or so. Air dry, then blue it. Hopefully the coarser sanding profile will give the blueing solution more to work with.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: ejb1975 on February 23, 2019, 01:23:46 PM
Just ran across this thread today, I’ve got a few Pre b’s including a 95 i was planning to do pretty much everything you’ve done.  Crazy how much more work it is in pictures than it is in my head, awesome story and you are tenacious! Well done


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 23, 2019, 01:59:11 PM
Bluing Cycle #1 (redo after re-sanding frame)
Here we go again.

Degreased.
Warmed.
Into fresh acetone.
Warmed
Bluing solution applied
Now going to boil once the water is at temp.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190223/15df3db35992e9a526bb95a581ee5431.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190223/2ae981cb1ef63cc635a1c375a13fa417.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 23, 2019, 02:39:50 PM
Better.

Still some spots but definitely not like before.

I'm not sure what the spot on the backstrap is. I may need to sand that one out.

On the right front of the frame I recall letting the frame rest on my clean paper towel while I was applying the bluing solution so there's a reason for that checkered pattern. I hope I can just blue over that.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190223/baa03bd237b0d36f92cb406049ff5b1d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190223/6f4c1e357a3d02b02d8ba1a317be7e0c.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190223/8fdb5755bae07dd46cafb18d90cbf2e0.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190223/34bccf63945330b103d4b58821ff5f75.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on February 23, 2019, 02:43:37 PM
My first cycle always has a few dark spots.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 23, 2019, 02:44:34 PM
My first cycle always has a few dark spots.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
Would you continue as-is with it?

The backstrap has some extremely dark spots.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on February 23, 2019, 02:46:14 PM
I never use express blue, so I can't say for sure. When slow rust blueing I've learned not to panic until after maybe the third cycle.

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Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 23, 2019, 02:47:21 PM
I never use express blue, so I can't say for sure. When slow rust blueing I've learned not to panic until after maybe the third cycle.

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OK. I'll see what happens then :)

No panicking for me. It's already been a year. What's a few more days/weeks/months
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on February 23, 2019, 02:51:40 PM
I did a Winchester Model 70 last year. I really struggled getting it clean and started over twice. On the third go round it still had some dark spots but I was sure it was clean. I was frustrated and said what the heck, I'll just keep going for the experience. It ended up turning out really nice after 6 cycles.

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Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 23, 2019, 04:29:31 PM
I did a Winchester Model 70 last year. I really struggled getting it clean and started over twice. On the third go round it still had some dark spots but I was sure it was clean. I was frustrated and said what the heck, I'll just keep going for the experience. It ended up turning out really nice after 6 cycles.

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Do you replace your distilled water every cycle?
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on February 23, 2019, 08:15:13 PM
I did a Winchester Model 70 last year. I really struggled getting it clean and started over twice. On the third go round it still had some dark spots but I was sure it was clean. I was frustrated and said what the heck, I'll just keep going for the experience. It ended up turning out really nice after 6 cycles.

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Do you replace your distilled water every cycle?
Nope. I did when I started, now I just replace it when it gets funky. Maybe every three cycles depending on how many parts/frames I'm bluing.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 23, 2019, 11:37:23 PM
Bluing Cycle #2
It's getting better. I'm developing more spots but I hope they even themselves out and disappear.

Tossed the slide above the frame to see the difference in color.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190224/63eb7635d04de09fdd2bea06d8a54b0e.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190224/3f51f4fc2e670f57c8a5a3b50116e1ba.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190224/817c90a127ba0a358c52309225999b35.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190224/41d08753e71e8a411934f7e6c660f694.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190224/272a6ef123470899e201391b642096ec.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 24, 2019, 11:14:42 PM
Bluing Cycle #3
This is cycle #4 for the controls and #3 for the frame (I re-sanded the frame after the first cycle)

The blotches are still there. I think a bit minimized. Not totally sure. It's hard to tell.

I think I'm going to take a the controls to 6 cycles and maybe the frame to 10 or so.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190225/353c7a55b30b194c803cf833a47bfd15.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190225/517e24c5cee35fac1a42b5da9408fbb1.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190225/9b05baf099b1177d40dfe694e807aa09.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 26, 2019, 10:56:23 PM
Bluing Cycle #4
This is cycle #5 for the controls and #4 for the frame.

Still some blotchyness. I even think some areas are. Getting worse. Perhaps that means they are actually getting better because they are darker.

Maybe the blotchyness is actually darker Bluing. What a plot twist that would be.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190227/9e8750692a1de3ea5a845399de804c05.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190227/5fd487717e7d22e2d0b9477f941bea71.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190227/61f4028098e69bd2a1cfcd85d52f9f31.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 26, 2019, 11:01:51 PM
Bluing Cycle #5
This is cycle #6 for the controls and #5 for the frame. Last night I rusted and today I was able to boil, card then do another Bluing Cycle again. So two in one night.

I did make a mistake the second time around of not having enough water. I had to add a bit more to the boiling water to cover the frame. That lowered the water temp and it took another few minutes to come back to boil. I don't know what effect that would have on the Bluing.

I compared the parts to my slide which I blued almost a year ago. The slide is much darker. I remember even though I put slide and frame through the same number of cycles on my first go around, the slide ended up being darker.

I'm not quite sure how to match the Bluing.
I'm not sure how much the frame will deepen as it settles. I think that happens after final carding and leaving it in oil.

At first I thought the controls need 6 cycles but I may do some more just in case. I should figure out how to show the difference in color between cycles a bit better.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190227/46dc81ac38f4c8976917643cc4ff9345.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190227/2e2402d45ee2821a1802e24a7cf02acc.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190227/e5c989120f24e3db77b6b5927b6c8c4d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190227/b927ca3fddd20dfc51eafdf6a7f88a8e.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190227/ca63482b5384d2afc787cf5a35c40cdb.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190227/f98bb4f072f4f6dfffce9a883515476b.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on February 26, 2019, 11:14:10 PM
I'd keep cycling until it won't rust anymore. Just remember, if you want it to keep developing color after you oil it, don't use an oil with rust inhibitors. I believe that's why boiled linseed oil is preferred. At least that's what I recall from a conversation with SP01SHADOW.

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Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 26, 2019, 11:17:10 PM
I'd keep cycling until it won't rust anymore. Just remember, if you want it to keep developing color after you oil it, don't use an oil with rust inhibitors. I believe that's why boiled linseed oil is preferred. At least that's what I recall from a conversation with SP01SHADOW.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
I'm a bit torn because I'm hoping to match the color and in my mind that means that I need to follow the same steps. I used non detergent motor oil and let the parts sit in it overnight. Maybe longer I have to go back and re-read this thread.

I do have linseed oil at the ready. I've just never opened up the can.

*edit* I looked at a message that SP01SHADOW sent to me. He recommended non detergent motor oil or boiled linseed oil.

That guy is a living legend to me. I wish I could build a gun from the ground up with him.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on February 27, 2019, 09:38:07 AM
I'd keep cycling until it won't rust anymore. Just remember, if you want it to keep developing color after you oil it, don't use an oil with rust inhibitors. I believe that's why boiled linseed oil is preferred. At least that's what I recall from a conversation with SP01SHADOW.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
I'm a bit torn because I'm hoping to match the color and in my mind that means that I need to follow the same steps. I used non detergent motor oil and let the parts sit in it overnight. Maybe longer I have to go back and re-read this thread.

I do have linseed oil at the ready. I've just never opened up the can.

*edit* I looked at a message that SP01SHADOW sent to me. He recommended non detergent motor oil or boiled linseed oil.

That guy is a living legend to me. I wish I could build a gun from the ground up with him.
I've learned more from SP01SHADOW(regarding this subject) than anyone else to date. Awesome guy, I sincerely wish he was still on the forum.

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Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 27, 2019, 11:46:35 PM
Bluing Cycle #6
This is cycle #7 for the controls and #6 for the frame.

The controls are not rusting much anymore. Not much to card off. I may be done. Maybe I'll do them one more time.

The frame is also decreasing in rust. I find that there is a layer on the flats of the frame but really everywhere else is very minimal. I may do a few more cycles just for good measure but I'm getting there.

There are still splotches here and there. I'm hoping the more cycles I do the more they disappear.

Again shown next to the slide that I blued last year. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190228/371f0e0de9f372e87199dd680f59fc14.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190228/69021da05897679f86690a76cba23968.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190228/0d4c5a1cc59e04c6a21ba90689372997.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190228/709e3496ce5b5d19f7628a20a6d3ad57.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190228/8fd280cc72eca552294eb800372226b8.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on February 27, 2019, 11:51:45 PM
Looks to me like the spots are minimizing, yes?

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Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 27, 2019, 11:52:53 PM
Looks to me like the spots are minimizing, yes?

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Yes the dark. Spots are not so dark anymore. I do have some other discolorations but maybe I'm just looking too hard.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on February 27, 2019, 11:57:48 PM
Mine have had a few that don't show when oiled.

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Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 28, 2019, 12:00:18 AM
Mine have had a few that don't show when oiled.

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That's my hope. Unfortunately I won't know until I oil it. So I think I'll do a few more cycles just in case.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: SoCal on February 28, 2019, 03:16:22 PM
It does look pretty IMHO
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on February 28, 2019, 03:18:50 PM
It does look pretty IMHO
I agree! Nothing better than a deep dark blue

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Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 28, 2019, 11:14:09 PM
Bluing Cycle #7
This is cycle #8 for the controls and #7 for the frame.

I think I'm done with the controls. The slide stop lever still seems light but it's really not rusting.

I'm going to toss in a container of non detergent motor oil tonight.

Here are pics of everything compared to my already blued slide.

The frame has areas no longer rusting but I think it has a few more to go.

Still not sure how to get it to match the slide.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190301/abef1fd2990459e433703b8abe0d7715.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190301/8a771303d3a07df9eba372e2b76fc2b8.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190301/083a94a52fe3b639f2445c5ec11e910b.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190301/cc20e9d25dac82c1b3122a7af35cb50a.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190301/364a2a471e4d453414e295124551d35b.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190301/464149d5e8f6e778a63414123ab0cad5.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190301/bf03a1a1864415df7f5127bab996f17d.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on February 28, 2019, 11:38:43 PM
It's so satisfying dunking these controls in motor oil.

They take on an immediate rich luster. I'm  hoping maybe I can capture the color change from the oil and curing of the metal somehow.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190301/7cb04bcfb918a67703d347da35f53509.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190301/28ca57f559024f8d74edea5c14b78eb8.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 01, 2019, 07:47:20 AM
What these 2 parts look like 8 hours later

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190301/5faf1e74d3390d25b43bec8596cd283e.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190301/00b2303ad69e1f28cd1213d35b7fc713.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 02, 2019, 01:17:04 AM
Bluing Cycle #8
This is cycle #8 for the frame.

On the back strap and front strap there are large darker areas. I'm going to keep bluing.

I noticed the area towards the muzzle has some textured appearance to it. This is the area that touched a paper towel as I was applying the rusting solution (on the very first cycle). So I guess I need to be more careful in the future. Applying solution apparently requires a lot of finesse. Doing more cycles may not fix mistakes made in prior cycles.

One issue I have with the frame is simply how to hold the frame while heating it up. I use wire but the frame moves around a bit. Having a more rigid base would allow me to be better with the rusting applications.

The controls are still soaking. It's been 1 day so far. I'm going to wait 3.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190302/e34d13c6a11a695cd45178c35d8e0293.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190302/055da5398c9a08ce16e7d56a1d019414.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190302/212808e81ceeeafa45247e91e9432824.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190302/bb17ceb9ca8cb560b9332beacfd57f3b.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 02, 2019, 06:40:49 AM
Was the large spot on the back strap there after the previous cycle? It didn't show in the pics, at least not as prominent as this time around.

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Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 02, 2019, 06:46:59 AM
Was the large spot on the back strap there after the previous cycle? It didn't show in the pics, at least not as prominent as this time around.

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No it was not. Interesting huh
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 02, 2019, 06:59:13 AM
 Yes it is odd. That would indicate something to with the process I think.
 I haven't used your method, only slow rust. I've had a few spots show after the first or second cycle but they've always disappeared or minimized with more cycles. I've always been careful not to overlap during acid application. I use bore patches soaked and then squeezed out almost dry, just enough to wet the surface.
That said, some overlap is unavoidable.

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Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 02, 2019, 07:02:33 AM


Yes it is odd. That would indicate something to with the process I think.
 I haven't used your method, only slow rust. I've had a few spots show after the first or second cycle but they've always disappeared or minimized with more cycles. I've always been careful not to overlap during acid application. I use bore patches soaked and then squeezed out almost dry, just enough to wet the surface.
That said, some overlap is unavoidable.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

I use bore patches as well. I don't squeeze almost dry.. I try and apply so it doesn't drip. Maybe I'll try a bit drier.

The issue is how to hold the frame. When dangling from wire it moves too much.

I was thinking of welding a handle that would thread into the threaded hole for the mag and trigger bar support spring.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 02, 2019, 07:20:42 AM
 I think SP01SHADOW uses glue applicators made for PVC cement. I can never get them squeezed out enough and they leave fuzz/hairs, at least the ones I bought.
 I use a couple patches stacked and folded twice. Like I said, I squeeze them almost dry. After a pass or two, I turn to a different side of the fold, applying a single layer in one direction with minimal overlap.It's still enough to wet the surface. It drys very quickly. As long as it's dry, sometimes I set the piece down to get a different grip. I usually put a piece of 8x11 copy paper on the bench to ensure I have a clean surface. I do change the patches frequently as they pick up rust while wiping.
 I hold the frame by sticking four fingers inside and hold the frame upside down, similar with the slide. I don't worry too much holding small parts as long as I don't touch them while wet.
 You heat the parts before applying acid correct? I can see that would be hard to hold then.

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Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 02, 2019, 07:24:02 AM
I think SP01SHADOW uses glue applicators made for PVC cement. I can never get them squeezed out enough and they leave fuzz/hairs, at least the ones I bought.
 I use a couple patches stacked and folded twice. Like I said, I squeeze them almost dry. After a pass or two, I turn to a different side of the fold, applying a single layer in one direction with minimal overlap.It's still enough to wet the surface. It drys very quickly. As long as it's dry, sometimes I set the piece down to get a different grip. I usually put a piece of 8x11 copy paper on the bench to ensure I have a clean surface. I do change the patches frequently as they pick up rust while wiping.
 I hold the frame by sticking four fingers inside and hold the frame upside down, similar with the slide. I don't worry too much holding small parts as long as I don't touch them while wet.
 You heat the parts before applying acid correct? I can see that would be hard to hold then.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
Yes I heat with a propane torch. 150 to 200 degrees. A bit hot to the touch.

I definitely over apply. That could be it.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 02, 2019, 07:29:57 AM
Definitely a challenge to apply with finesse when the piece is hot enough to burn you. I'm so comfortable slow rusting, I can't imagine doing it any differently.

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Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 02, 2019, 08:31:19 AM
Definitely a challenge to apply with finesse when the piece is hot enough to burn you. I'm so comfortable slow rusting, I can't imagine doing it any differently.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
That probably my next project. I have some Laurel Mountain sitting here. I just figured I needed to replicate what I did for the slide so it would match.

Hopefully I'll get to another gun at some point. I'd like to try the beavertail a different way.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 02, 2019, 08:59:48 AM
I've tried Laurel Mountain and Brownells. So far I've had better results with LM, but I have more experience with it than the Brownells. I built a box for rusting so that speeds up the process considerably. Hanging in a humid bathroom works great too, but the wife doesn't appreciate it.

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Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 02, 2019, 04:35:53 PM
Bluing Cycle #9
This is cycle #9 for the frame.

This time I tried to go much lighter on the patch instead using it soaked.

Usually with what I've been doing, after the third wipe the frame gets pretty dark even before boiling.

This time it remained fairly bright. I could still see the spots under the rusting solution before boiling.

Here it is after carding.

I think this must be some sort of oil contamination. I just can't think of how other than my fingers. The back strap almost looks like a finger print.


I feel like I should take one of those restaurant server staff trainings that show you how to avoid contaminating food. :)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190302/a8a77dcda7413be8251122d9a9c48e6f.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190302/a5fc4d43496d9334da07311d823ef495.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190302/569a7562ff061d1acd11731356112605.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190302/3e64c26a4496084c3a7a2300943497d2.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190302/6f33fd606664b17274b7b11ed1b24839.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190302/e1eb269647df38dc2e0fde5df8d27da6.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190302/56b0c8d877060c29d2c427a57df269a9.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 02, 2019, 10:01:56 PM
Bluing Cycle #10
This is cycle #10 for the frame.

I tried going with a different applicator. I was using bore patches but I switched to glue applicators. I submerged in acetone first and let it dry.

Originally on another gun I started this way but it took a lot of finesse with the propane torch to prevent the frame from getting too hot. If it did, the applicator would gum up and become difficult to work with.

I've been Bluing so much recently that I know my torch now and that's no longer an issue.

I went heavier on the rusting solution than last time.

Here are the results.

The frame is darker after the 3rd rusting wipe.

Some of the blotches are diminishing (I think)

I'm not sure if this frame is getting any darker. I'm more concerned about removing the imperfections.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/f69381a47801c4fd2d9573a7d7e985f4.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/e148698f2fa1cfb0677c053e037d56bc.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/692aee2d3477c69b86255404e813e17e.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/939bd91d5a3c339aff8ba213a9da0ae5.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/5647ade3dc8fa021c745641e2543f883.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/b582e44f27cd823c9d2f5e463eb5c8a9.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/52f8f7aefe33bbc5eafce96280b722e6.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 02, 2019, 10:08:39 PM
Here are the controls after 2 days in motor oil.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/23077d7f4ff75767d239e72154e7bc91.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/80cd099cc93deb0015653539632fc1fd.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/f2cbc2d3228c658612183fd4d6a291d0.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/ced7ebbb2d2031a7605ec4586b95f856.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 02, 2019, 11:11:34 PM
Bluing Cycle #11
This is cycle #11 for the frame.

I had hoped this would be the last one but it's not going to be.

I used the glue applicator and went about applying as usual. A heavy coat.

Then thinking this may be it, I boiled for 20 minutes (final boil) instead of the 5 for all the incremental boils.

It turned out very streaky for some reason.

So I'm going to do another cycle and boil for 5 minutes only. If it's good enough and the streaks are gone I may toss it in afterwards for another 20.

I also still have no idea whether the Bluing will end up matching the slide. I don't think it's getting darker with every cycle at this point. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/73079d14363a62cdbe17b163c1434265.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/f8bd628038111dcf1c6e0281b867c032.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/f7efda17a9870237db6db3c779c8a874.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/d8c9d1335e13bbcea4af484db7d95f3d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/565dd43a6fd06d0f95d8ad28198b7fea.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/5d10de806abe3eb4f4b0eff3b7ce8f05.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 03, 2019, 03:36:12 PM
Bluing Cycle #12
This is cycle #12 for the frame.

I tried another more heavy application and here are the results.

I also emailed Mark Lee and he responded today. He told me that if I believed to be oil contaminated I could wash in simple green and rinse well before my next Bluing.

He also said that I could use the polyfoam paint brushes to apply.

He noted that in some guns the oil seeps out of places and sometimes it takes a ton of cycles to finish. He said a double barrel shotgun took him 20.

I'm only on 12 :)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/8a7932ced4ee8462abd35a4b990f3d42.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/c76a250ef68cbfc1b492e46d3e3825fd.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/4609280a7bfa639aa737b4a0e1539553.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/92ba00f9c064e505c5437652c6492c2c.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/2f01d0d15f9a85cb0ce8a796db9d0da8.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 03, 2019, 03:37:16 PM
I washed in simple green and then used a heat gun to dry it.

I also bought a few polyfoam brushes but when I went to clean one in acetone it expanded and got all loose on me so I decided not to use it.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/10fdd9d26c03d81396e0a58dfb06e954.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/d4c06d83777bf48dbcddde80c3c2cc7a.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/510a8944d26c64a7e7cd15fca50a9997.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/eb230a0038037335c53374cb8d4e81f1.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/f9df426029a3f9ba70227fae1791ffdd.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/59a29037cab8e644b68af02afa257d26.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 03, 2019, 03:49:08 PM
Bluing Cycle #13
This is cycle #13 for the frame.

This is after simple green and another cycle.

It's still streaky. I may just continue to do a few more to see if it fixes it. Not a ton to card anymore.

One side looks OK. The other does not.

I wonder if the gun sitting directly on one side during the boiling has something to do with it.

I'm not suspending the frame in the pot. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/34d88b1488aeeecd4d85d81894f770a4.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/478dcb8ad5d21b5de93bfca8507cb45d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/03ad0b2040a72a35e282d28eba5cb172.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/3470b563da00fb7b2ef36fa87e430151.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/937c6089162a3116b2b9a86332ac5deb.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/f0103eb6fbac8b5c6dfb5d2370b84fc6.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: sberres on March 03, 2019, 04:25:43 PM
  I tried a bit of the express method a couple of projects back; a Star BM. I heated the parts
enough to where it was not quite possible to hang onto them using a heat gun. I wound up using a much heavier application of the solution as it would dry so quickly upon application. Then as it cooled it would form rust much more quickly and heavily than I’d previously experienced and much more in line with the heavy red bloom so often seen in picture threads for this subject. I was even using a small acid/flux brush for application in the harder to reach textured areas like slide serrations and the like and was having no problems with dripping or puddling or really needing to blot it dry.
  I think I determined that one done in about 4 cycles as it seemed quite uniform and no longer showing the heavy bloom. After I got all of the parts treated and oil thoroughly worked in I noticed that my sanded flat areas were much more matte than I was anticipating. I’d only sanded to about 150 grit specifically to leave a visible grain but these areas were quite a flat, matte. In some areas almost seeming like some very fine pitting.
  My conclusion was that I don’t care much for the express method of heating parts to anything greater than slightly warm. I feel that this made the acid solution more aggressive and formed much larger rust particles and the start of some etching.
  The next project was another Star BM. This was done as earlier projects with only basic warming and finished the same as the previous with glass bead blast on all contours and all flats sanded to 150. I still used the brush to adequately reach recesses and irregular surfaces and then blotted these areas dry with a clean cotton ball before using the wrung out cottonball to apply to the rest of the surfaces. Things progressed more in line with what I’d seen before with things continually evening out over 6 or more cycles. The difference between those two, identical guns, is night and day, at least to me. And it is more on par with the progress and results of the slow rust applied to my CZ’s.
  I’ve only used the Brownells so far and have no reason to change. But I do think that preheating maybe provides a heavy enough application and possibly more deeply penetrating oxide that it may be throwing you off. Differences in the steel inherent to casting may contribute to this. I don’t think you should start over as I think the final treatments will render what you presently see as moot, but maybe on the next one try something other than the express method. Put the slow back in ‘slow rust’, so to speak.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 03, 2019, 04:33:57 PM
I don't hang my parts for boiling anymore, it uses too much water and takes too long to boil. I just lay them in the pan with enough water to completely cover them. No issues so far.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: sberres on March 03, 2019, 04:49:51 PM
I don't hang my parts for boiling anymore, it uses too much water and takes too long to boil. I just lay them in the pan with enough water to completely cover them. No issues so far.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
Same thing. Though I do use a loose coil of stainless weld wire lying in the bottom of the kettle to get full circulation of water around flat parts.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 03, 2019, 05:13:56 PM
I've been emailing back and forth with Mark Lee. He's been very responsive.

He told me to keep going.
He said there may be a few things going on. Some parts of the metal may not be taking on rust. He suggested using a scotchbrite pad under running water and then continuing on.

I may continue to see what happens...why stop now :)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 04, 2019, 12:44:48 AM
My controls are out of the motor oil and wiped off.

I'm going to leave them next to the slide and safety which were done last year to see how the newly blued controls darken (if they do).

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190304/c8eeb35606b74607b326587f3e4f4dd9.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190304/2b896f79c7dc98b3132fc3b03f0a02c6.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 04, 2019, 09:51:04 PM
Bluing Cycle #14
This is cycle #14 for the frame.

I did one more cycle to see what would happen. Nothing great.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190305/6c0695966dcaa8139189bd30aae2fc54.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190305/757cbd7d05b253877e866781d1504835.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190305/59726d892a3ddbc1c0ccaf16143f16ec.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 04, 2019, 09:54:10 PM
I took Mark Lee's suggestion and ran the frame with a scotchbrite pad under running water.

It was pretty interesting. The frame got darker as I was rubbing it with the pad. That's how I judged where I had scrubbed.

Then I hit it with my heat gun.

I went over the entire frame. Here is how it looks now. Pretty even.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190305/94edc2dac3deb03d5709be2dd82bc401.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190305/2c8742b21ee82cdeb6b48c0da1eb9d77.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190305/f433664c83217b47d8b4619a38ee2267.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190305/afcb3cac55427f0386ca4fa385a54e43.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 04, 2019, 10:20:03 PM
Bluing Cycle #15
This is cycle #15 for the frame.

Looks much better after scotchbrite and a rusting cycle.

I guess lesson learned. If you see spots you should take care of it asap... Otherwise you may waste a lot of cycles hoping for the best.


(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190305/8b1c4a4a548186dd3734f2cdf827397b.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190305/8a307b35f74fdbef6cb27a6e3e1b9abc.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190305/c8e059e0a2fcf20826a97841104b7381.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190305/eb3029e3ad86e742e790f47941a0de7a.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 04, 2019, 10:40:42 PM
That looks much better! Seems like Mr. Lee should have included that detail in the original instructions. Haven't you had similar issues with some of your other projects using his product?

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Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 04, 2019, 10:52:28 PM
That looks much better! Seems like Mr. Lee should have included that detail in the original instructions. Haven't you had similar issues with some of your other projects using his product?

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
I have. I wonder if I'm not careful enough and am contaminating things.

Things like:
Holding my heat gun - is the gun degreased
Holding my pliers - is it degreased
Did I change my gloves enough?
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 04, 2019, 10:56:22 PM
I'm relieved for you. I know how frustrating it can be not getting the results you want after so much work.

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Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 05, 2019, 11:38:17 PM
This is the project that just keeps giving.

I did another cycle and got the blotchyness back!

I was super careful about contaminating. Now I'm second guessing everything.

I emailed Mark Lee for advice.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190306/4c05e11ae99fb6c56c7bce58273bc3d5.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190306/d4716c64fa43b80fe2165e47a1fd1e66.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190306/ca23567516b93b3d49568293a7beb670.jpg)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 06, 2019, 12:00:18 AM
my suggestion is this, do a rust blueing w/o boiling the frame.  it will give a more rustic, brown-ish finish, where the irregularites will really add to the asthetics of the final product.  sometimes the project dictates the direction of the of the outcome.....rather than the initial plan.  when done with about 5 applications just seal it with some gun oil and the colors will really come out after several hours.  wipe it down and enjoy the one of a kind look it will have.....just a suggestion. here is one I did a few years back using this process, looked better in person but just to give you an idea.....whatever you choose to do, best of luck  ;)

(https://i.imgur.com/cxYrygN.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/2oAf2SP.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/PDLGRc9.jpg)
I like that and will probably try that in the future.

I have a slide already blued to match the frame and wanted a pair of blued 75's with matching finishes. (I finished one before this one)
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on March 06, 2019, 06:38:10 AM
Have you reached out to SP01SHADOW to get his opinion on the issues your having with this one?

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Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Underwhere on March 06, 2019, 07:36:59 AM
Have you reached out to SP01SHADOW to get his opinion on the issues your having with this one?

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
That's a good idea.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Sulpgnir on March 23, 2019, 04:14:39 PM
Thank you for sharing your well-documented project with us.  It's a true labor of love!

Keep up with the good work!
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: parastoo on March 27, 2019, 05:45:16 PM
Hi,
    I haven't been following this for the last few months so I've forgotten a lot of the thread. I was hot about doing this to a surplus 75 that I bought late last year and then the obsession cooled. But when I was thinking about it I had the idea that instead of Q-tipping on the solution what about wetting a cloth or some gauze patches with the solution, putting the parts in a small plastic box with a cover and the patches then putting a heating pad or other heat source under the box. The idea being to vaporize the solution and sort of Vapor Deposition the acid onto the parts. Just a thought.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: sberres on March 31, 2019, 11:35:29 PM
  You’re essentially referring to “fume” bluing where you put the acid solution into the warmed, enclosed environment and let the fumes do the work of application for you. It’s accomplishing the same thing to the steel. I don’t know if there’s necessarily and advantage or not but care is required around nearby things that you don’t want to rust. Good containment becomes more critical.
  It’s definitely an adventure (refinishing a neglected or abused piece) and one that I’d have never considered had I not run across this site. Finish alone certainly doesn’t make it work any better but it is very satisfying to make such an improvement.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: parastoo on April 04, 2019, 08:40:28 PM
Hi,
    I was just thinking that it would be easier to get a more uniform coat of the solution rather than with a swab that may or may not have too much or too little of the solution, which seems to be the problem that many people have.
Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: Earl Keese on April 04, 2019, 10:30:05 PM
Hi,
    I was just thinking that it would be easier to get a more uniform coat of the solution rather than with a swab that may or may not have too much or too little of the solution, which seems to be the problem that many people have.
Your idea has been done, but there's a fair amount of work in getting set up to do it. Far too much for the hobbyist that only rust blues a few guns per year. Slow rust bluing the traditional way is considerably less complicated than other methods. In my opinion, that includes express bluing.
 With rust blue, once you get a routine in place, it's very easy to do. Getting a uniform coat is easier with each cycle.
 

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Title: Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
Post by: sberres on April 07, 2019, 11:31:46 PM
+1 with what Earl says. This isn’t really a coating process that requires uniformity as it is a reaction that requires exposure to the reagent solution. The multiple applications required will easily take care of areas that tend to oxidize more quickly than others. Trying to ‘work it in’ can actually be counter-productive than applying as lightly and uniformly as possible. Anything lightly missed at one application will be caught with the next and areas previously covered will incur some protection from unevenness during future applications and further help even if out as work progresses.