The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Lights, Lasers and Red Dots => Topic started by: bpnkrtn on March 05, 2018, 02:44:49 PM
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I (think) I would like to have a red dot on my PCR. My preference would be to have the slide milled for a specific red dot ... thinking about the Vortex Viper ... but somewhat flexible. I know there are several rear dovetail mounts for the compacts but, so far, I have not seen/heard of milling on a PCR or P-01. Any information is appreciated, especially pictures!
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Just curious why you wouldn't find something like this, that would not require irreversibly machining your slide, satisfactory?
https://shop.springerprecision.com/product.sc;jsessionid=0B356586687147CEBAEA509582E3E151.p3plqscsfapp001?productId=261
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Just curious why you wouldn't find something like this, that would not require irreversibly machining your slide, satisfactory?
https://shop.springerprecision.com/product.sc;jsessionid=0B356586687147CEBAEA509582E3E151.p3plqscsfapp001?productId=261
I have found (for me anyway) that the lower the red dot sits the easier/quicker it is for me to pick it up. Most of my learning has been on S&W M&Ps: in terms of better/quicker I have found a Vortex Viper (milled) > Trijicon RMR (milled) > Viper/RNR on CORE plates > Deltapoint-Pro on special plate > RMR on a dovetail mount. A much simpler way to say it is the Lower the red dot the faster/better it seems to work for me. However, I have to admit that my admiration/obsession/appreciation for the PCR/P-01 combined with my need (old eyes) just may drive me to a dovetail mount IF the slides just do not lend themselves to milling ... but I'd bitch about it ;)
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Had my wife's CZ 75 Compact milled for a DP Pro by Primary Machine. They also installed the taller front sight and cerakoted the slide. At one point I think they had stopped milling for DP Pros due to those sights running out of elevation range and not being able to get POI to POA. Didn't hear of any issues with the RMRs.
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=95420.0
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Although I agree that milling a very small RDS like the Viper into the slide will achieve the lowest red dot; I also understand the desire to NOT mill the slide, have a very reliable set-up with BUIS, and keep the total investment reasonable.
So here's a solution that's worked so well on my full-size 75 SP-01,
that I'm just now doing to my P-01 too:
The combination achieves lower 1/3 co-witness BUIS with only a .275 tall front Dawson FO sight, a self-adjusting J-Point RDS that stays ready 24/7 but dims in storage for 1 year+ battery life, and a Leupold #170903 CZ-75 mount that utilizes the dovetail to mount low and contours perfectly to the slide. ALL-IN only $325. The J-point fits Leupold mount exactly (made by very experienced RDS company Shield for JP Enterprises) has a built in notch that serves as a rear 'iron'. I posted a detailed DIY for CZ 75 Red Dot <$325 in 'Lights, Lasers, Red Dots' Forum section. I'll post more images of my P-01 as I complete my P-01 later this week.
(https://i.imgur.com/1NtIVSY.jpg?5)
Of course in use the red dot will be in center of reticle, but image below shows co-witness of 'irons' and red dot. JPoint is only 3/8" above top of slide. Of course, there's no reason you can't mill the J-Point to achieve an even lower mount, but this set-up is very good!
(https://i.imgur.com/kKm1qNi.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/cGDjI0H.jpg?1)
I won't argue that a deep-milled Trijicon RMR or Viper without an adapter plate might be an even better and perhaps more rugged set-up, but you're talking more $$ invested; and cannot be reversed or changed. I believe Primary Machine can do this for you. CZ Custom offers a nice milled-in mounting plate, but I don't think you gain much in mounting height. I think many of us with older eyes are looking for compact carry-optic RDS solutions. Please keep us posted! 8)
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Although I agree that milling a very small RDS like the Viper into the slide will achieve the lowest red dot; I also understand the desire to NOT mill the slide, have a very reliable set-up with BUIS, and keep the total investment reasonable.
So here's a solution that's worked so well on my full-size 75 SP-01,
that I'm just now doing to my P-01 too:
The combination achieves lower 1/3 co-witness BUIS with only a .275 tall front Dawson FO sight, a self-adjusting J-Point RDS that stays ready 24/7 but dims in storage for 1 year+ battery life, and a Leupold #170903 CZ-75 mount that utilizes the dovetail to mount low and contours perfectly to the slide. ALL-IN only $325. The J-point fits Leupold mount exactly (made by very experienced RDS company Shield for JP Enterprises) has a built in notch that serves as a rear 'iron'. I posted a detailed DIY for CZ 75 Red Dot <$325 in 'Lights, Lasers, Red Dots' Forum section. I'll post more images of my P-01 as I complete my P-01 later this week.
(https://i.imgur.com/1NtIVSY.jpg?5)
Of course in use the red dot will be in center of reticle, but image below shows co-witness of 'irons' and red dot. JPoint is only 3/8" above top of slide. Of course, there's no reason you can't mill the J-Point to achieve an even lower mount, but this set-up is very good!
(https://i.imgur.com/kKm1qNi.jpg?1)
I won't argue that a deep-milled Trijicon RMR or Viper without an adapter plate might be an even better and perhaps more rugged set-up, but you're talking more $$ invested; and cannot be reversed or changed. I believe Primary Machine can do this for you. CZ Custom offers a nice milled-in mounting plate, but I don't think you gain much in mounting height. I think many of us with older eyes are looking for compact carry-optic RDS solutions. Please keep us posted! 8)
This EXACTLY the solution I am looking for with my P-01. Thank you!
Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
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Had my wife's CZ 75 Compact milled for a DP Pro by Primary Machine. They also installed the taller front sight and cerakoted the slide. At one point I think they had stopped milling for DP Pros due to those sights running out of elevation range and not being able to get POI to POA. Didn't hear of any issues with the RMRs.
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=95420.0
M14A4ME ... thanks for info, especially the pictures of the DP-P. At present the DP-P is my favorite RDS ... unfortunately it's also the largest! As you say of your wife's compact w/ DP-P ... looks awkward, functions fine.
Decisions ... decisions. Thanks again.
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Although I agree that milling a very small RDS like the Viper into the slide will achieve the lowest red dot; I also understand the desire to NOT mill the slide, have a very reliable set-up with BUIS, and keep the total investment reasonable.
Vinny ... thanks for your input/information, much appreciated. I'm considering this as a temporary "fix" and holding out for new/improved/smaller red dots? It does look very nice, thanks again.
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Although I agree that milling a very small RDS like the Viper into the slide will achieve the lowest red dot; I also understand the desire to NOT mill the slide, have a very reliable set-up with BUIS, and keep the total investment reasonable.
Vinny ... thanks for your input/information, much appreciated. I'm considering this as a temporary "fix" and holding out for new/improved/smaller red dots? It does look very nice, thanks again.
I think this plan makes good sense. You get to try a good cost-effective RDS/BUIS set-up without milling; leaving your options open as you research different set-ups and optic features and decide what you reallywant. Of course the DPP will also fit the same mount, but IMHO it's too tall for a 75 Compact. I have a P-07 with the DPP deep milled and it still took a .440 tall front sight to co-witness. There's a bunch of different mounts for the JPoint (including S&W revolver) so you can always use it somewhere else. BTW, Optics Planet frequently runs 10-12% off RDS sales-free shipping.
Good luck with your PCR RDS Project, and please keep us posted! -Vinny
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Quick UPDATE:
Although the JPoint and Leupold mount work great on a FULL SIZE 75, I've tried this set-up on my P-01 and because of the shorter barrel/tilt there isn't enough elevation adjustment in the JPoint to achieve POA/POI. Fully adjusted it still shoots 8" low. I'm going to contact JP Enterprises who imports these from Shield in UK to see if there's some other solution. But for now I can't recommend this set-up for a 75 Compact. -Vinny
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Quick UPDATE:
Although the JPoint and Leupold mount work great on a FULL SIZE 75, I've tried this set-up on my P-01 and because of the shorter barrel/tilt there isn't enough elevation adjustment in the JPoint to achieve POA/POI. Fully adjusted it still shoots 8" low. I'm going to contact JP Enterprises who imports these from Shield in UK to see if there's some other solution. But for now I can't recommend this set-up for a 75 Compact. -Vinny
Thanks for the update!
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Quick UPDATE:
Although the JPoint and Leupold mount work great on a FULL SIZE 75, I've tried this set-up on my P-01 and because of the shorter barrel/tilt there isn't enough elevation adjustment in the JPoint to achieve POA/POI. Fully adjusted it still shoots 8" low. I'm going to contact JP Enterprises who imports these from Shield in UK to see if there's some other solution. But for now I can't recommend this set-up for a 75 Compact. -Vinny
Wait a minute.......If all else fails...READ THE MANUAL!
I have figured out a solution for the JPoint mount on the shorter barrel P-01.
Here's what the Manual says:
"However, there are occasions when the point of impact of a particular firearm in the elevation range will be outside the adjustment range of the sight. This requires alternate solutions such as shimming the sight."
So, instead of running the Gorilla tape underneath the full length of the mount; I applied the tape just behind the dovetail to act as a shim to tilt the optic mount slightly downward getting me back into adjustment range. Because the screws still hold everything down tight, this should not effect reliability.
Success! I'll post some pictures:
(https://i.imgur.com/mth08mB.jpg?1)
Tape on just one end underneath mount creates enough 'tilt' to provide elevation adjustment
(https://i.imgur.com/QJZ5V0x.jpg?1)
After dialing in here's a 2"diameter sticky at 10 yards:
(https://i.imgur.com/NxFBMDh.jpg?1)
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Did you bench rest that to dial in the red dot?
Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
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Did you bench rest that to dial in the red dot?
Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
Nope, I dial in shooting offhand so it will repeat like I really shoot at self-defense distances. I use that small 2" sticky on a white 8-1/2 x 11" sheet. I shoot 5 rounds at a time to see where I am, make adjustments, and repeat until I can shoot a tight group on a 2" circle at 10 yards, I subscribe to the theory...Aim Small, Shoot Small. Then 7 or 5 yards is easy-peasy. But make no mistake; I couldn't shoot like that without a red dot.
But many folks do use a bench rest to dial in a new RDS.
Because the barrel and red dot are on slightly different planes; POI will go UP slightly as you shoot at greater distance or DOWN as you get closer. But we're talking fractions of an inch. The lower or closer the RDS is to the plane of barrel, the less of an effect this has.
Hope this info helps.
P.S. Using just the rear notch in the JPoint as my rear 'iron' and original P-01 front sight my shots were 8" high at 7 yards so I calculated I need about .300-.320 tall front sight for co-witness BUIS. Dawson has a .295 tall FO that will probably work OK. If anything shots might be a bit high but it's really only a rarely if ever back-up to RDS.
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If there isn't enough elevation adjustment; JPoint offers some optional wedges. For my P-01 it took TWO wedges to bring the adjustment into range. Here's what it looks like:
(https://i.imgur.com/4Hsid7x.jpg?1)
And after dialing in the adjustment....Here are 5 quick shots(1st DA) all inside 1-1/2" diameter at 7 yards:
(https://i.imgur.com/X1J2AcU.jpg?1)
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I'm interested in that J-Point sight, for my new P01, but I don't want it way up in the air off the slide.
Also, I'm wondering about it's durability as compared to the RMR and the DP Pro. From the one source I read that is very red dot/pistol oriented (as in anyone who doesn't see the advantages and take them is just crazy/stupid) they are saying the RMR is the most durable, followed by the DP Pro, followed by the J-point.
Didn't the makers of the J-Point just come out with a new/tougher red dot sight? I seem to remember hearing something about that a few weeks back.
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I'm planning to put Tru Glo TFX PRO sights on my new P-01. Have had them on a couple of my M&P's and liked them very much.
Am I missing something with so many going with Red dot....as you probably can tell, I am no sight expert, but I sure pick up that orange front sight with the Tru Glo....and of course, they are night sights.
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I'm interested in that J-Point sight, for my new P01, but I don't want it way up in the air off the slide.
Also, I'm wondering about it's durability as compared to the RMR and the DP Pro. From the one source I read that is very red dot/pistol oriented (as in anyone who doesn't see the advantages and take them is just crazy/stupid) they are saying the RMR is the most durable, followed by the DP Pro, followed by the J-point.
Didn't the makers of the J-Point just come out with a new/tougher red dot sight? I seem to remember hearing something about that a few weeks back.
M1A4ME, There is another thread discussing a Shield milled onto a P-01. The Shield RMS is the newer all-metal version of the JPoint and it's probably THE best set-up on a P-01. Check out that thread.
I was trying to experiment with a RDS on my P-01 before I milled it permanently; and the JPoint and Leupold mount set-up gave me that opportunity. The problem with the DPPro is that it's so tall and large on a compact; and the pricey RMR requires an additional Trijicon mounting plate for another $200 bucks in addition to the milling cost. Hey, if money is no object, go for the RMR but the Shield is small enough to mill in front of the stock rear sight using those sights for BUIS; it looks like a very nice setup.
I have a bunch of different pistols with RDS; and I have to say I really, really, like the RDS on my P-01. With the +2 16 round magazine it does it all.
Now that I've tried it and the Shield has come down in price to about $350; I think my next step will be to have Primary mill my other P-01 for a Shield; with no extra plate required, just cost of milling and refinishing slide.
However, I'm probably going to keep the JPoint on my SP-01 as the longer slide did NOT require the 2 'wedgies' and it sits low enough to only require a .275 tall front sight to provide lower 1/3 co-witness BUIS.
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I'm planning to put Tru Glo TFX PRO sights on my new P-01. Have had them on a couple of my M&P's and liked them very much.
Am I missing something with so many going with Red dot....as you probably can tell, I am no sight expert, but I sure pick up that orange front sight with the Tru Glo....and of course, they are night sights.
If your eyes are still good, the TFX are among the best irons. But, IF your eyes are as old as mine; you will definitely find a big advantage to RDS. I mounted the TFX Pros on my other P-01 and as good as they are; NO WAY can I shoot as fast or as accurately as my P-01 with RDS (after some practice getting used to presenting the dot). However, I want the RDS and BUIS too if it's a defensive pistol. YMMV
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What I tell people about "the dot" is that if I lose my glasses I cannot see the front sight at all against the target. But I can see a blurry dot and put it on the target.
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I'm planning to put Tru Glo TFX PRO sights on my new P-01. Have had them on a couple of my M&P's and liked them very much.
Am I missing something with so many going with Red dot....as you probably can tell, I am no sight expert, but I sure pick up that orange front sight with the Tru Glo....and of course, they are night sights.
Last I checked I had 20/10 vision. If someone has 20/20 they have to move up to 10 feet to see what I see clearly at 20 feet. So I don?t have old eyes yet, just an old back and old ears. I can see iron sights well, but once I tried a pistol with a red dot it only took me a few weeks to get one for one of my CZ?s. That thing is just fantastic.
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showing my ignorance-what is big advantage of red dot over other good sights?
got email from Tactical Alerts - huge special-Reflex Red Dot Sight - military grade technology-must have a Weaver or Picatinny rail to mount. "Just put dot on what you want to hit, and squeeze the trigger"..special is price-$39.95 Anyone know the deal on this (oh, 60 day guarantee also)- supposed to improve your shooting dramatically??
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Inletman, a red dot allows you to look though the lens and focus solely on the target as opposed to the front sight. As our eyes age, we loose the ability to focus on more than one object so front sight focus = blurred target, target focus = front sight blurred. Add in a rear sight and you have to really concentrate/train to focus on the correct plane. RDS makes it easy.
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showing my ignorance-what is big advantage of red dot over other good sights?
got email from Tactical Alerts - huge special-Reflex Red Dot Sight - military grade technology-must have a Weaver or Picatinny rail to mount. "Just put dot on what you want to hit, and squeeze the trigger"..special is price-$39.95 Anyone know the deal on this (oh, 60 day guarantee also)- supposed to improve your shooting dramatically??
Good quality inexpensive red dots are OK to try IF you mount them on the receiver or fixed barrel like a 22LR pistol's picatinny rail. IE: Ruger MK, Buckmark, SW 22 Victory. I have several Browning Reflex RDS I picked up for ~$40 mounted on my above 22LR pistol's. Gave me a good opportunity to try a RDS and they still work fine two years later.
However, don't even think about mounting one on a 9mm semi-auto slide. The G-force is in the 1,000's as the slide moves back it will blow the RDS apart. For slide mounting you'll need a RDS built for 4000-5000 G's like a Trijicon RMR, Leupold Delta Point Pro, Vortex, Burris Fast Fire 3, etc. These start about $200 and go up to $500+
It's OK to put your toe in. The water's fine!
Hope this info helps. -Vinny
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I have never had an opportunity to hold a pistol with a RDS, so I'm thinking about the cheapest, easiest way I could experiment to see if this is something I would like.
I have an SP01 Shadow and a Kadet kit.
Would it be possible to use this mount on the Kadet slide:
https://shop.springerprecision.com/product.sc;jsessionid=0B356586687147CEBAEA509582E3E151.p3plqscsfapp001?productId=261
And put a cheapo RDS like the Browning Reflex on it, just to try it out?
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I have never had an opportunity to hold a pistol with a RDS, so I'm thinking about the cheapest, easiest way I could experiment to see if this is something I would like.
I have an SP01 Shadow and a Kadet kit.
Would it be possible to use this mount on the Kadet slide:
https://shop.springerprecision.com/product.sc;jsessionid=0B356586687147CEBAEA509582E3E151.p3plqscsfapp001?productId=261
And put a cheapo RDS like the Browning Reflex on it, just to try it out?
You'll need the mount for the Shadow rear sight dovetail. I have this mount on my Kadet w/ a Burris FF3. It works well for Bullseye, but not practical shooting. I wouldn't suggest trying anything cheaper than the FF3 or a vortex red dot. If you should try it and not like it, you can sell them for a small loss. The loss will likely be less than a cheap red dot that you'll be stuck with(if it holds up).
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Just thought I should update this old post showing a good solution for a 75 compact RDS.
CZC milled my P-01 for their multi-optic plate and I mounted a Vortex Venom. The Venom has two vertical 'goal post' lines on the back that serve nicely as my rear BUIS with the correct height front to 'lower-1/3 co-witness'.
There are others that can mill your optic to mount directly onto the slide; which is also a solid solution. However, as there are constant improvements in electronics; I wanted the option to go with a different optic in the future by just changing the mount plate. I've heard good things about the Holosun 507c which would fit same plate as an RMR so that would also be a good option using CZC's plate. I also understand that CGW offers the multi-plate. Two very good resources for quality CZ-75 milling! YMMV
(https://i.imgur.com/7hz7AI6.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/R2HoH9u.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/HWq3XOs.jpg?1)
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Hi Vinny:
Thanks for the info on RDS. I recently got into it too because of older eyes. I used a rear sight dovetail plate on a SP01 Shadow and a Vortex venom. I found the set up is a bit high and wish I could find a co-witness front sight. But everything I found seemed too short: even with Dawson Precision's 0.37 black sight. Any advice? Thanks!
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Hi Vinny:
Thanks for the info on RDS. I recently got into it too because of older eyes. I used a rear sight dovetail plate on a SP01 Shadow and a Vortex venom. I found the set up is a bit high and wish I could find a co-witness front sight. But everything I found seemed too short: even with Dawson Precision's 0.37 black sight. Any advice? Thanks!
You can use Dawson's on-line sight height calculator to determine the additional height you need. Using whatever BUIS you currently have, measure the distance between your POA vs actual POI at a specific distance. Enter this data along with your sight radius and it will tell you how much ADDITIONAL front height you need.
However, if the pistol is just for range or competition and not for SD; you probably don't NEED the BUIS anyhow. With both eyes focused on my target; I dry-fire practice at home presenting the dot, so I'm confident and NEVER even look at the irons. My speed and accuracy has improved significantly, and my 'ol eyes have thanked me.
Good luck in your journey. -Vinny
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Thanks Vinny! Yes it is mostly for IPSC. Need to spend more time on practice like you said.