The Original CZ Forum

GENERAL => Lights, Lasers and Red Dots => Topic started by: Vinny on May 22, 2018, 10:37:11 PM

Title: Considering a Red Dot, How Do I Start?
Post by: Vinny on May 22, 2018, 10:37:11 PM
We?re seeing more and more handguns with Red Dots. Why?

Because after a short learning curve they?re simply faster and more accurate than iron sights. Especially beneficial if like me, you have aging eyes.

If you still have doubts, consider this exhaustive 4 year study by Sage Dynamics of RDS for military and LEO use: https://lockedback.com/results-4-year-handgun-red-dot-study-sage-dynamics/

But like many new things in electronics, the choices are confusing and shooters who want to improve their skills often ask?Where do I start?

There are a number of good threads on the CZ Forum about RDS, especially in the ?Lights, Lasers and Red Dots? section and a lot has been already written by others more experienced than I, including s0nspark one of the Forum's administrators who's very knowledgeable especially about RDS.
 
But perhaps I can share a few tips I've learned (the hard way) that might provide a starting point:

A good red dot to mount on a semi-auto slide will start around $200 (Burris Fast Fire 3, Vortex Venom or Viper), with mid-price units $300-400 (Sig Romeo 1, Shield RMS and RMSc, JPoint, Leupold Delta Point Pro} and go up over $500+ for Trijicon?s top RMR models (like RMR 06 and 07) . A moving slide can generate G forces in the 1000's so they have to be built to withstand this and hold perfect alignment; so that's why they cost so much.

If you want a low-risk way to 'test the water' you can mount a relatively inexpensive RDS (I started with a Browning Buckmark Reflex p/n 1290230 ~$45) that just fastens on the picatinny rail of my Buckmark 22LR pistol (or Ruger MK III or IV, SW-22 Victory, etc) where the RDS is not subjected to those high G forces of the moving slide. This gave me a chance to see just how much easier it was to shoot with BOTH EYES OPEN looking through the reticle lens at the target and the dot would appear exactly where the bullet would go (after dialing it in). Although this type of inexpensive red dot sits rather high atop the picatinny rail, and in no way is the ideal setup; In no time I was shooting tight groups again at 20-25 yards. Almost felt like cheating, a competitive edge older eyes sure can use!

Next step for me was purchasing a handgun that was 'Optic-Ready' like a Canik TP9SFX, FNH-FNX 45 Tactical, S&W M&P CORE, Springfield XDM OSP, etc. The slides are pre-milled and ready to mount various optics without gunsmithing.  I chose a Glock 17 MOS (Modular Optic System) that had the slide pre-milled to mount an optic with interchangeable plates that fit all the major RDS so I could try several. I went with a Leupold DPPro. But a less expensive Burris, Vortex, JPoint/Shield or other good RDS will get you started until you really know the various RDS features that are most import to you. Anyone handy can mount these in the pre-drilled tapped holes.

There's also the choice of dot size to consider depending upon intended use, from a small MOA (moment of Angle) like 2moa for longer distance target shooting, to a larger dot 6 to 8moa for faster defensive shooting.

Another way to get started is with a mounting plate that goes in place of the rear dovetail. A fairly easy DIY once the rear sight is removed. There are a number of companies like Springer that fit specific handgun dovetails. Another source for these RDS mounting plates is Midway or Optics Planet. The mounting plate locks into the dovetail and the RDS will fasten into pre-drilled tapped holes in the mount, but of course there are 5 or 6 different hole patterns for all the different RDS. Some plates will accept multiple models. In another thread I posted a detailed how-to DIY to mount a Shield/JPoint on a CZ-75 variant using a Leupold CZ-75 mount that also fits a Shield or JPoint. This allowed me a chance to try a RDS on my SP-01 without milling the slide.

But for a defensive handgun, not just a range or competition gun; having BUIS Back Up Iron Sights is considered essential, where the irons will be available looking through the lower 1/3 of the reticle lens to provide working sights in the rare instance the RDS stops working.  It takes some getting used to and practice presenting the handgun so the red dot 'appears' in the Lens and the BUIS also helps provide you a reference. However, after considerable practice, you won't even use the BUIS as just acquiring the dot will become instinctive and much faster.

Again, for defensive guns the ideal scenario is to get the optic mounted as low as possible, milling the slide so the RDS sits even lower and lines up so the stock irons can be utilized for BUIS. There are a number of good resources to do this milling and optic mounting turn-key including CGW, CZ Custom and Primary Machine and cost is roughly $150 to $200 for this, plus cost of the optic you choose.
Primary Machine's website has an excellent info page called 'Knowledge Center' that has much more in depth info on the subject of RDS.

Last but not least; there are several ?turn-key? handguns now available that come from the factory with the RDS optic mounted and a matched set of co-witness sights.  Sig Sauer?s RX series features a choice of their P320, P226, or P229 mated with their proprietary Romeo1 RDS and their excellent XRay 3 night sights that are properly positioned as lower 1/3 co-witness BUIS. There's also the Springfield XDM OSP that comes with a Vortex Venom mounted and BUIS. And Walther just introduced their sub-compact carry PPS M2 with a SHIELD RMSc mounted and matched to BUIS.  I?m sure there will be more in the future, as Red Dots on handguns will become as prolific as scopes on rifles!

Hope this info helps. -Vinny
(https://i.imgur.com/IIpXbMF.jpg?2)
Title: Re: Considering a Red Dot, How Do I Start?
Post by: boss281 on May 23, 2018, 06:37:47 AM
Vinny, this is an excellent summary that is the motivation I need to quit trying to find a working iron sight solution for the aging eye problem.  I've tried night sights, fiber optic front and back, fiber optic front with "over 40 eyes" black rear sights with deeper/wider cuts...it's been an exercise in frustration since I retired in late 2016 and started hitting the range 2-3x a week.  Before that I was lucky to find time for range shooting once a month.  For my rifles shooting in 9mm competitive events out to 25 yards or solo bullseye shooting at (often much) longer distances, my nearsightedness corrective lenses and a red dot (PCC) or magnifying scope (longer bullseye) were the combo needed to be competitive or personally satisfying.  It just plain works, and is a solid rifle solution.

When I started working in a gun shop in late 2017 and simultaneously started shooting competitions (steel shoots), I needed to blow the dust off the CZs and start practicing bullseye, defensive shooting, and competition shooting.  It was so overwhelming because I simply could NOT clearly see my front sights wearing my prescriptions.  For bullseye or competition, I need to have my nearsightedness corrected or I can't see what I'm shooting at past 15 yards clearly enough (defensively, in the shop or home, clear lenses have to suffice and center mass shooting is more than adequate--not discussed further here).  I have to toss those iron sights, period.

Several months ago, I picked up a spare SP-01 slide to get milled for my SP-01 Tactical to use in competitions.  I'll send all this out by Saturday, I'm done futzing.  I'm going to explore a dovetail RDS sight mount for my range gun (CZ 75BD) so I can shoot 5, 7, 10, 15 and 25 yards and feel like I'm accomplishing something.  For my P-01 OWB work guns (P-01 at 4-5 o'clock or P-07 worn on the hip), I think, given the close distances I'm working with in practice, I can get by with clear lenses when practicing for now.  I've got a defensive handgun refresher coming up in June, and that said, might take the SP-01T with me to compare if it's done in time though...it might be enough to put me over the edge and have the RDS treatment done for all 4 of my CZ pistols.

You and a few others have really done a good job pioneering the conversation around the RDS solution, especially for us older b@stards that are frustrated with the body wearing out a bit.  I'm 60 and fit, hit the gym 3 times a week and can still run with the youngsters on a competitive front, yet I can't hit what I can't see holding a pistol---the eyes are my weak point and solution is staring me in the face.  Time to stop being stubborn and prideful, time to get the job done.

Kudos...
Title: Re: Considering a Red Dot, How Do I Start?
Post by: Vinny on May 23, 2018, 07:42:59 AM
Thanks boss,
There's so many of us in the same boat.
But I've picked up many good tips from this forum that have worked for me; thought it was time for me to share.
Sounds like you're on the right track!  -Vinny
Title: Re: Considering a Red Dot, How Do I Start?
Post by: baldrage on May 23, 2018, 11:26:12 AM
Thank you for posting this -- bookmarked!

I'm 45, not quite ready to give up on iron sights yet, but I can tell it will only be a couple more years at best before I need to make the switch.

If you could insert links to some of the posts and websites you mentioned, that would be super-helpful and merit making this a sticky, IMHO.
Title: Re: Considering a Red Dot, How Do I Start?
Post by: s0nspark on May 23, 2018, 01:26:37 PM
If you stumble across any of my posts on MRDS-equipped handguns you will probably find me saying "jump in! get your feet wet!" :) Of course, some approaches to this experiment are better than others unless you truly do not care what it may cost - yes, there are apparently some of those folks out there! :)

First, I think it is wisest, by far, to start with an inexpensive MRDS setup and spend some quality time behind the gun. You simply can't get a true feel for the pros and cons of running a dot without actually doing a fair amount of dry-fire and live-fire with an MRDS-equipped handgun. Choose an optic-ready handgun model and put an inexpensive MRDS on there and go to work!

The takeaways for me were that I wanted an RMR... on ALL of my handguns where it suited the gun's purpose... and that I needed to work harder on making my presentation consistent. Others have come away less committed to the concept (or the amount of work it requires) or have decided to wait for "better" gun and optic options. The important point was that I made an informed decision for myself based on my own experiences.

Even if you come away from the experiment having decided that you don't want to pursue a more expensive setup, that starter setup still makes an EXCELLENT dry-fire tool. Many new to working with a pistol-mounted MRDS are disturbed to see the amount of movement in the dot when holding on target compared to what they see in their irons. It really keeps you honest and can help you diagnose and correct trigger control and presentation issues that otherwise might go undiagnosed and untreated.

Should you decide that a serious MRDS setup is for you, you will need to do your homework! Choice of optic should depend on how the gun is to be used. While I do occasionally compete and take fun guns to the range, my "lane" with this is very much handguns for defensive use so keep that in mind as we proceed ;-)

There are different trade-offs for each optic choice... The Trijicon RMR RM06 and RM07 models are the current gold standard on guns for self-defense use due to their feature set and track record with reliability BUT the RMR has a relatively smaller window and the glass has a tint to it that some find less than ideal. It is also more expensive than most, if not all, of the other MRDS options. If your tolerance for optic failure is a little higher - say with a range or competition gun - then you have a lot of other options. The three I see most mentioned are the Leupold DeltaPoint Pro, the Vortex Venom, and the Shield RMS. Please note that I am not saying that these wouldn't work for carry or home defense - you just need to recognize that there is more risk of failure with these models compared to the RMR. 

This brings up an important point, though...

Any mechanical or electronic piece of gear can fail unexpectedly. At that point, it doesn't matter what you paid for it, what someone else's experience with it was or how great the company's warranty service is. (Ok, that last one does matter - just not in the heat of a defensive encounter!)

On a carry gun, you need to plan and practice for optic failure. You should have quality backup irons and you should regularly practice with them by turning the dot off. You should also spend some time practicing by taping over the optic window entirely and shooting using just the optic body and slide as a reference. There are techniques that can be used to ensure combat-effective hits well out past typical self-defense distances but they are not something you want to have to guess at or try to master under duress ;-) Just as you practice malfunction drills with your gun, you should practice optic failure drills as well.

You should be clear on this point: an MRDS setup simply does not make you shoot better. Sorry, it just does not. *moment of silence inserted here*

An MRDS does help you see better and allows you to stay target-focused. It can also give you more information about how well you are employing the essential shooting skills. Overall, practicing and shooting with an MRDS handgun takes serious commitment to get results - money, time and a certain willingness to trust what the optic is telling you and change accordingly - but these investments pay huge dividends if you put in the work.
Title: Re: Considering a Red Dot, How Do I Start?
Post by: M1A4ME on May 23, 2018, 05:57:14 PM
I resisted the red dot sight thing for years.  Man, the RMRs cost more than my P07 or P09.  The slide machining, BUIS and cerakote refinish on the slide was about 1/2 the cost of a P07 or P09.

I finally did it.  I bought a DI RMR and sent my P09 (the most accurate semi auto center fire pistol I've ever fired) 9MM off to Primary Machine for the work. 

I waited (not long) for it to come back and when I did I headed to the range.  The results were so good that I called e-mailed Bruce and "discussed" the P07 and it and a second DI RMR shipped out to Primary Machine about a week later.  That P07 was just down the road with my today while running errands/shopping.  Saturday it was with me when I went to Waynesboro and back.  That P07 is important enough to me that I sent the P09 first (remember, the most accurate semi auto center fire pistol I've ever shot = just a little bit more accurate than my P09), in case it didn't work out for me or I just couldn't use it with the RMR on it.

My wife shot my P07 and liked it so well we got a couple DP Pros and sent her CZ75 Compact off to have the slide work done to it and then installed the DP Pro (she preferred the dot over the triangle) on it.  She loves it.  She's a fan of small groups (the CZ 75 Compact was mine until she shot it one day at the range.  It was more accurate (iron sights) than her CZ75 Compact, but she wanted mine, so I gave it to her and ordered another one for me.

This is her last group of the afternoon on the first range day with the DP Pro installed.  It was a cold winter day, she was tired and cold.  She shot a five shot group (7 yds. from a rest off the bench top) with the DP Pro and then shot two shots with the iron sights and called it quits for the day so we packed up and left.  Does a red dot make the pistol more accurate?  No.  Does it make it easier for you to shoot accurately?  It sure does.

(https://i.imgur.com/ywYEIdHl.jpg)

The top hole is one of the 5 with the DP Pro.  The bottom hole is one of the 2 with the iron sights.   Did I mention she really like that little pistol?

Lots of good "stuff" about red dots.  Take advantage of them to make you more effective with your pistol.  Ours are self defense pistols, not competition, but they work well on either as long as you pick the right pistol, the right red dot with the right features for your intended use and you practice with them.

Title: Re: Considering a Red Dot, How Do I Start?
Post by: Vinny on May 25, 2018, 11:05:08 AM
If you really want to learn more about Trijicon RMR's, the difference between each model, and some great info about RDS in general.....Here's a link:

https://bigtexoutdoors.com/blogs/news/differences-between-trijicon-rmrs

-Vinny
Title: Re: Considering a Red Dot, How Do I Start?
Post by: inletman on May 28, 2018, 07:08:58 PM
Guess Red Dot is not for me. Went to gun store and rented a Glock 19 (had never shot a Glock before - just CZ's and M&P's) with a red dot on it. I couldn't hit the back side of a barn-  at first could not find red dot. Then , rather than putting my iron and optic front sight on the target, the red dot seemed to dance into the picture, and I could not keep it stationary to fire the shot. The fact that I did not like trigger on the Glock probably didn't help.

Just didn't work for me at all...or maybe I couldn't work it.  :(
Title: Re: Considering a Red Dot, How Do I Start?
Post by: s0nspark on May 28, 2018, 08:26:26 PM
Guess Red Dot is not for me. Went to gun store and rented a Glock 19 (had never shot a Glock before - just CZ's and M&P's) with a red dot on it. I couldn't hit the back side of a barn-  at first could not find red dot. Then , rather than putting my iron and optic front sight on the target, the red dot seemed to dance into the picture, and I could not keep it stationary to fire the shot. The fact that I did not like trigger on the Glock probably didn't help.

Just didn't work for me at all...or maybe I couldn't work it.  :(

I'm wondering if it was even zeroed.

Also, if you aren't accustomed to the Glock grip angle that would complicate the natural point of aim you depend on with a dot.
Title: Re: Considering a Red Dot, How Do I Start?
Post by: inletman on May 28, 2018, 08:48:10 PM
Guess Red Dot is not for me. Went to gun store and rented a Glock 19 (had never shot a Glock before - just CZ's and M&P's) with a red dot on it. I couldn't hit the back side of a barn-  at first could not find red dot. Then , rather than putting my iron and optic front sight on the target, the red dot seemed to dance into the picture, and I could not keep it stationary to fire the shot. The fact that I did not like trigger on the Glock probably didn't help.

Just didn't work for me at all...or maybe I couldn't work it.  :(

I'm wondering if it was even zeroed.

Also, if you aren't accustomed to the Glock grip angle that would complicate the natural point of aim you depend on with a dot.
My ignorance...what does zeroed mean?
Title: Re: Considering a Red Dot, How Do I Start?
Post by: Vinny on May 28, 2018, 08:55:51 PM
Guess Red Dot is not for me. Went to gun store and rented a Glock 19 (had never shot a Glock before - just CZ's and M&P's) with a red dot on it. I couldn't hit the back side of a barn-  at first could not find red dot. Then , rather than putting my iron and optic front sight on the target, the red dot seemed to dance into the picture, and I could not keep it stationary to fire the shot. The fact that I did not like trigger on the Glock probably didn't help.

Just didn't work for me at all...or maybe I couldn't work it.  :(

Just a suggestion......
Anyone who uses a red dot will tell you there's a learning curve to shoot with both eyes open looking through the reticle with the dot centered on your target; but the end results will be well worth the effort, but it does take time and effort.

If the dot was moving and dancing; it's probably telling you something that you don't notice when using irons.
Same thing often happens the first time people use a laser.  The dot doesn't move by itself. You're doing something to make it move.

Even if you only dry-fire practice with a red dot.......
When you can make fundamental changes that will hold the dot steady on your target as you pull through the trigger; your shooting will improve.   

Just MHO  -Vinny

Title: Considering a Red Dot, How Do I Start?
Post by: s0nspark on May 28, 2018, 09:01:40 PM
I'm wondering if it was even zeroed.

Also, if you aren't accustomed to the Glock grip angle that would complicate the natural point of aim you depend on with a dot.
My ignorance...what does zeroed mean?

With an optic you have to adjust the point of aim (location of the dot in the window) to match the point of impact at a specific distance. That process is known as zeroing.
Title: Re: Considering a Red Dot, How Do I Start?
Post by: MuzzleBlastMD on May 28, 2018, 10:34:37 PM
Guess Red Dot is not for me. Went to gun store and rented a Glock 19 (had never shot a Glock before - just CZ's and M&P's) with a red dot on it. I couldn't hit the back side of a barn-  at first could not find red dot. Then , rather than putting my iron and optic front sight on the target, the red dot seemed to dance into the picture, and I could not keep it stationary to fire the shot. The fact that I did not like trigger on the Glock probably didn't help.

Just didn't work for me at all...or maybe I couldn't work it.  :(

I'm wondering if it was even zeroed.

Also, if you aren't accustomed to the Glock grip angle that would complicate the natural point of aim you depend on with a dot.
My ignorance...what does zeroed mean?

There is an important thing to consider when a Red dot is Zeroed. Point of impact changes with different brands even with similar bullet grain weights.  It changes more with different grain weights.

I had outfitted some defensive pistols with reflex sights. When casually shooting it is very easy to sight the dot and hit the target.

Drawing from concealment can be slower, however, since finding the dot may take a fraction of a second longer.  I use Suppressor height night sights with my red dots.  I bring the open sights into view and the pistol up to eye level to see the dot.

A smaller MOA is harder to see from drawing / concealment (3-4 MOA), but there?s more precision over a large MOA dot (6 MOA or greater).

Backup sights are critical. A user must make sure the sights can clear the base of the optic.

One main problem with dovetail mounted optics is that they may not accommodate for backup sights, but some DO exist.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Considering a Red Dot, How Do I Start?
Post by: oldfrank on May 29, 2018, 09:43:58 AM
With a Red Dot you look at the target and the dot will (should) appear there.

I have been shooting a P-07 with a dot for about a year and have seen my scores in matches rise back up to where they once were. For me it is much faster to be ready to fire each shot if you have old eyes like me.

It does tell on you though as Sunday I shot a match with a 1911 and I was stinking until I realized I was looking at the target and not my front sight.
Title: Re: Considering a Red Dot, How Do I Start?
Post by: s0nspark on May 29, 2018, 10:40:29 AM
With a Red Dot you look at the target and the dot will (should) appear there.

I have been shooting a P-07 with a dot for about a year and have seen my scores in matches rise back up to where they once were. For me it is much faster to be ready to fire each shot if you have old eyes like me.

It does tell on you though as Sunday I shot a match with a 1911 and I was stinking until I realized I was looking at the target and not my front sight.

An important point that some miss, too, is that you shouldn't focus on the dot!

As you said, focus on the target - the dot is superimposed for reference.
Title: Re: Considering a Red Dot, How Do I Start?
Post by: joedirt199 on May 29, 2018, 11:58:44 AM
I am surprised at how many people shoot irons with one eye closed. Been wanting to get into pistol red dot sights and have an extra slide for my p07 that could be milled so I can keep the original slide stock in case of resale even though I don't sell guns.
Title: Re: Considering a Red Dot, How Do I Start?
Post by: OhioGuy78 on April 11, 2019, 05:00:15 PM
Start shopping, or start shooting? :)

I got a pre-milled slide for my P-07 from CZ Custom. It was cut for a Trijicon RMR. If you plan on running a lot of rounds and doing a lot of training, based on all reviews just about everywhere, I'd suggest ponying up to Trijicon. I have had zero failures of any kind over 2500 rounds during the last 12 months. It hasn't lost zero in the slightest.

Unfortunately there's really no good way to stick your toe into the red dot waters, unless you have something like a Ruger Mark III/IV with a rail on top, and can buy a relatively cheap red dot at Cabela's to plink with. That gives you the feel, at least.

But if you go all-in, the most important thing you can train to do is bring your pistol up to eye level with the sights aligned. Even before you have the red dot, get used to bringing up the pistol with sights in near perfect alignment. Otherwise, you will (like me) spend months wondering where on earth the stupid dot went. When your irons are off, you can see it quickly and adjust. When the dot is gone, there's no reference. It's just gone. So coming up on target with your sights aligned will make your life so much easier. Eventually you'll find that dot every time and the irons will just be backups.
Title: Re: Considering a Red Dot, How Do I Start?
Post by: Vinny on April 14, 2019, 04:50:30 AM
Start shopping, or start shooting? :)


But if you go all-in, the most important thing you can train to do is bring your pistol up to eye level with the sights aligned. Even before you have the red dot, get used to bringing up the pistol with sights in near perfect alignment. Otherwise, you will (like me) spend months wondering where on earth the stupid dot went. When your irons are off, you can see it quickly and adjust. When the dot is gone, there's no reference. It's just gone. So coming up on target with your sights aligned will make your life so much easier. Eventually you'll find that dot every time and the irons will just be backups.

Just a suggestion.....If you draw up and press outwards from the chest looking with both eyes at your target the dot will 'appear' more readily.  You can practice this at home dry-firing at a spot on your wall. - Vinny
Title: Re: Considering a Red Dot, How Do I Start?
Post by: radagast on April 14, 2019, 10:08:17 AM
I Guess I'd fall somewhere between M1A4ME and inletman.
     After a 40 year hiatus from shooting, things seemed to be amiss UNTIL I rented a P07 & P09 at a range quite distant from home. It felt akin to "divine intervention" ! While I've never considered myself a competitive shooter, I sure never felt like a slouch on the range. At 70, My Vision and hand strength are taking their toll, and I noticed the beginnings of a tremble while  pointing a heavier 1911. The CZ P series pointed so naturally for me, that I managed to gain back a lot of my old confidence.
     I shot my Brother in Law's Glock 19 with a well zeroed Dot and felt like it was Prom Nite all over again ! Between grip angle and newness to the Red Dot, I knew I'd need a lot of range time to feel comfortable.
     The wife and I both have P07s, so if I can survive N.J. until the wife retires, I'll probably p/u a machined slide and red dot in order celebrate a move to N.C.

Thank you folks for a great thread !
Title: Re: Considering a Red Dot, How Do I Start?
Post by: M1A4ME on April 14, 2019, 10:30:40 AM
Just got my Holosun 507C Friday in the mail.

Now, as soon as I can get to the range the targets will tell me whether it will go on the XD 5" Tactical .45 or the P09 .40 S&W.

Amazing (in the you tube videos) robustness, unreal battery life and the price are the draw.  Price and battery life are proven.  I'll have to see how it holds up for me.  If all are good I'll have to get another one, for another project.
Title: Re: Considering a Red Dot, How Do I Start?
Post by: canthelpit on April 14, 2019, 12:25:52 PM
OK, so I have a question about red dot's.   When I look through one, what I see is not a dot, but
an elongated blob: I call it the caterpillar.  Someone suggested it's because I have an astigmatism,
but whatever it is, it makes shooting one difficult.  I've experienced it on different brands of red
dot.

Anybody else have this experience, and is there anything I can do about it?
Title: Re: Considering a Red Dot, How Do I Start?
Post by: s0nspark on April 14, 2019, 12:47:03 PM
OK, so I have a question about red dot's.   When I look through one, what I see is not a dot, but
an elongated blob: I call it the caterpillar.  Someone suggested it's because I have an astigmatism,
but whatever it is, it makes shooting one difficult.  I've experienced it on different brands of red
dot.

Anybody else have this experience, and is there anything I can do about it?

Definitely astigmatism.

The extent of the effect it has on dot shape does vary a bit from brand to brand, model to model. Dot size also plays a role with me at least... Smaller works better for me.
Title: Re: Considering a Red Dot, How Do I Start?
Post by: M1A4ME on April 14, 2019, 12:56:01 PM
I know exactly what you mean.

People say one good way is to turn the illumination level down so it's not so bright.

Another is to buy one with a small dot.

If you're like me, the front sight is invisible without my glasses but I can put a fuzzy got on a clear target.  So I don't get too tore up about what the dot looks like, as long as I can see it.  Now, I don't feel that way about a rifle.  If there's a fly or a bullet hole on my target and I want to shoot at it then I need a nice, small, well defined aiming device and a fuzzy red dot won't get it done.  Fortunately, the red dot in the center of illuminated scopes is a nice round red dot.  For me, anyway.
Title: Re: Considering a Red Dot, How Do I Start?
Post by: canthelpit on April 14, 2019, 01:19:56 PM
Yup, I've noticed that the shape does vary with brand.  My son has a Vortex on his AR, and that one looks like the caterpillar.
I shot a friend's rifle the other day with a C-More: it presented a long skinny line with a "hook" at the end.  Weird.
Illumination level doesn't seem to help much, though maybe a bit.  I'll try to look through some others and see if small dot
size would help.  I currently don't have a gun to put one on, but I'm planning on buying an SP-01 and at some point
I'd like to.  My eyes aren't getting any better. 
Title: Re: Considering a Red Dot, How Do I Start?
Post by: Squonk on April 14, 2019, 02:41:50 PM
I have an astigmatism yet have never had a problem with various brands red dot sights. Weird. Maybe mine's not that severe. (https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/FqWyUHWytvf1MUUIJxIl1aQjzsg7X-ZVaOstrL7A9LXd_FYVMCxgJWaShuCHgyALFTLT9NPg6tkBE4ZP5U49jeRFBci8wZnrAsvdAKOHQ4Y0-OKn1LBHRuA7iag-1VLz1Pec5RX1Na86R8XpBNAv1jcM7sNDhDsHDeEDTFtbudBtLSyeX8xtG7d1ZLXP8VsVRgcxQ74MRMQqWhSQdttw1m0L40n0EvEPJGqZ7Ll2dVc-exQvxQ1ZYVnX9qYJo9PN30DhHx80Uk16iG4XU24gd4siapIBu_NHliMaqKvQyML4g1ttWy0_bvFzztT8xilf09CP-zBwHj0pvsU_DeHKrmdeXMtkqAvuMm7OHb6NmcXHIBG5tuNlkpspG_UpPU4FLJtKujvYpo9TZ4cPZE8n_wn1h_aYm1xSdSfN3aaOAU0CFeofKzxqBpvZLgT2phaLsMYf-oIayFosL3LsrmH76e5vEmrRuNdw--c2U7Ya-s2-k-X_CbbDD1wT29aup5KDoKUO3x9WxpFjZFj8H1Mh4YCaJxFdYaVsdHNHg3iP1Bhvv9lSsdQ6hwvE3WbZh911W6fdjiu7aqWDpo5yKugM8vVvmvq5VE2HwF1AVahKThkfXygI8h6EPobnEgemuPScMM_OD8d4yRIaO06sMNufjHmPwaJ4mD8=w37-h15-no)
Title: Re: Considering a Red Dot, How Do I Start?
Post by: s0nspark on April 14, 2019, 05:49:02 PM
I have an astigmatism yet have never had a problem with various brands

Severity does play a role. Mine is on the milder side and I see a little deformation but mostly blooming as the illumination intensity increases.
Title: Re: Considering a Red Dot, How Do I Start?
Post by: Squonk on April 15, 2019, 04:41:55 PM
Severity does play a role. Mine is on the milder side and I see a little deformation but mostly blooming as the illumination intensity increases.
Oh, well yes, I do get some blooming when I turn up the intensity too high. I set mine where it just begins to bloom (in a dark room). Is perfect in daylight and when I use my weapon light.  ;)
Title: Re: Considering a Red Dot, How Do I Start?
Post by: JamesCC on April 29, 2019, 03:29:03 PM
Thank you for posting this -- bookmarked!

I'm 45, not quite ready to give up on iron sights yet, but I can tell it will only be a couple more years at best before I need to make the switch.

If you could insert links to some of the posts and websites you mentioned, that would be super-helpful and merit making this a sticky, IMHO.

Ditto- took the feedback out of my mouth
Title: Re: Considering a Red Dot, How Do I Start?
Post by: MFI on May 17, 2019, 01:13:31 PM
Thinking about the Shield SMS with RMS/SMS mount. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Considering a Red Dot, How Do I Start?
Post by: kmanick on May 17, 2019, 01:45:01 PM
Thinking about the Shield SMS with RMS/SMS mount. Any thoughts?

I have the 8moa on my M&p 9L (I had the 4moa on there originally)
I use it for steel challenge
the pros:
sites very low so you can co-witness if desired
very light
decently priced
pretty easy to find the dot the window size is not bad
mine has held zero through thousands of rounds
auto adjust is very good on this unit
Cons
the lens scratches very easily
over tightening the windage or height adjustments will kill the unit.
I had to send mine first one back to Britain because of that and it took almost a month to get it back.
battery is under the dot and needs to be removed. I change mine once a year but have to re zero each time I do it  :(

I'm kind of thinking about milling the slide on my M&p9C and putting the 4moa dot I have sitting around on that
 I like the idea of an RMR on my carry and the shield sight is pretty narrow and sits low enough to co witness.
Title: Re: Considering a Red Dot, How Do I Start?
Post by: MFI on May 17, 2019, 03:41:28 PM
Anything better? I don't want to mill the slide.
Title: Re: Considering a Red Dot, How Do I Start?
Post by: MFI on May 20, 2019, 05:23:39 PM
http://ipsc-france.fr/red-dot-mount-for-shadow-2-production-optics-division/?lang=en
this looks promising
Title: Re: Considering a Red Dot, How Do I Start?
Post by: adrian on May 20, 2019, 07:04:47 PM
     Hiya MFI and see you are still in the seeking phase. I'd imagine that following some completion shooting events could net an opportunity to shoot your or another platform to see if its right for you. Perhaps a local range has a rental to test out?. Only reason I suggest is because having owned a Cmate and added a c-more to a shadow,it didn't work out for me,and its not a big deal to return back to what worked fine in the first place, but would have been nicer without the price tags involved and the loss of resale value. As long as you can see a front sight you are in business,I might consider it again when I cannot. Be well.
Title: Re: Considering a Red Dot, How Do I Start?
Post by: MFI on May 22, 2019, 07:25:09 AM
My problem is I can see the front sight with 2.0 glasses but the target is now blurry. I'll see if the range has a rental but in CT there arent any competitions to go to.
Title: Re: Considering a Red Dot, How Do I Start?
Post by: s0nspark on May 22, 2019, 07:47:40 AM
Anything better? I don't want to mill the slide.

What gun?

My first several red dot guns were milled but I have become more of a fan of the optic-ready options.
Title: Re: Considering a Red Dot, How Do I Start?
Post by: C-Zed Head on September 09, 2019, 04:25:22 PM
 I am getting my P10c back from Jagerwerks after work today 8)(might have to leave a little early) i am putting a green Holosun 507c on it. lots of C's. i'll post pics
ok you look at front sight, target, rear sight, target, front sight or go front sight, blur, blur.
 it is faster to do dot on target. as far as finding the dot in the window at the gun store and not liking it it is one of those things like getting a your first dot on a rifle and moving away from irons, it takes time. And not having a repeatable cheek weld... takes time with a pistol. dry fire for a month and its programmed in pretty well. if you practice, it will be easy, and you only have to focus on target. the dot is right there and its not a back and forth with eyes focusing. even if you sport 20/15 vision the dot is king over irons once you can present it consistently. Again practice practice practice
Title: Re: Considering a Red Dot, How Do I Start?
Post by: CZFanGrrl on October 08, 2019, 11:07:49 AM
I started shooting at age 53 and picked up a CZ Shadow 2.  Aging eyes and myopia, in addition to bouts of one sided double vision and depth perception problems from a medical condition made it a constant battle over whether I see the front sight or I see the target.

As soon as the optic ready CZ Shadow 2 was released in Canada I bought one and installed a Vortex Venom 6 MOA to test the waters.  What a revelation!  I could now wear my prescription glasses, now able to see the target and the RDS clearly superimposed over the target.  My shooting speed dropped off significantly at first, adjusting to dot acquisition, but within a few months I was shooting faster and far more accurately than previously.  I graduated from being a low 20% club match shooter to currently courting 60% within those three months.  In Steel matches I am doing even better.

I’ve now turned my P-09 into an optic modified gun running a Vortex Venom 6 MOA, I purchased a second Optic Ready Shadow 2 and am now running a Trijicon SRO 5 MOA on one and a Leupold DDP 7.5 MOA on the second which is solely for practice. 

If you’ve got aging eyes, RDS are the way to go and a way for you to keep enjoying and excelling at competitive shooting.  Making Production Optics a permanent division in IPSc was a brilliant decision and it’s definitely here to  stay. 

 https://youtu.be/e7--dBGcIN0 (https://youtu.be/e7--dBGcIN0)