Author Topic: 38 super brass  (Read 1906 times)

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DJK11

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38 super brass
« on: March 15, 2021, 08:19:38 AM »
I’m on my third session of loading 38 super +P loads and have a question about case capacity of the starline super comp brass.  Using starline +P and super comp and the published comments are that the super comp has a smaller case capacity so one should take that into consideration.  Well I filled both types of cases with water and both held 17.6 gn.  Each drop from the eye dropper is .2 gn.  Each case was filled to the same level.  Can anyone expound on this?  Is capacity actually different between the two?

Using 3n37 and 3n38 powder for the loads.  Very NICE!

Offline Duke Nukem

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Re: 38 super brass
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2021, 09:24:31 AM »
Using starline +P and super comp and the published comments are that the super comp has a smaller case capacity so one should take that into consideration.  Well I filled both types of cases with water and both held 17.6 gn.  Each drop from the eye dropper is .2 gn.  Each case was filled to the same level.  Can anyone expound on this?  Is capacity actually different between the two?

Did you fill to the same level from the top or the same level from the bottom? 

Your approach looks good, but why didn't you fill to the top?  If both cases are the same outer diameter and same length, then case wall thickness would be different, maybe by too little to notice when using your measuring technique.

Offline Wobbly

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Re: 38 super brass
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2021, 09:51:38 AM »
Good question. I don't know for sure, but I highly suspect that what they are talking about is the older, original 38Super brass, like from the 80's and earlier.

38Super was almost a forgotten cartridge, something Ian McCollum might be interested in. It had been on the books for 50 years and no police departments or sporting groups used it. It had been invented in the 1930's, supposedly as the next progression because designers recognized the power limitations of 38Special. But shortly after it's introduction the 38Super had itself been totally eclipsed by the introduction of 357Magnum. So it languished.

Then, action pistol shooters picked it up as a "fix all" in the mid 1990's. Everyone was attracted to the 9mm Luger, but they simply couldn't get enough powder into the small cartridge. (357SIG and 40S&W were other "answers" to this same issue.)

With 38Super they could 1) easily pack more powder behind their 9mm-sized bullet, and then 2) shoot it in a 1911 with it's more robust barrel and frame. (Remember that 9mm in the 1911 hadn't been invented. The 1911 action at that time only accepted longer cartridges.) Super looked and loaded just like 9mm, but it was the Luger cartridge on steroids.

Only tiny design issues remained. The original design of the 38Super had the cartridge headspace on the rim, like a revolver.  Action pistol shooters required an update, and so the new makers started headspacing the cartridge on the case mouth, as per the JMB inventions. When that happened, the diameter of the rim could be reduced to make the cartridges stack and feed more easily. Thus the introduction of 38SuperComp, 38SuperTJ, and others. Since the whole object was to shoot the new 38Super at much higher velocities, the designers of the new cases also took the liberty to strengthen the case head at the same time. So there was originally (say about 1995) a marked difference between standard 38Super and 38SuperComp cartridge cases.

As we move into the 21st century what we find is that no one carries the 38Super in 1911 for self defense. If you're going to carry a 1911, it's going to be in 45ACP. And conversely, if you're not going to carry a 1911, then it's going to be a mid-sized polymer gun in 9mm or 40, or an alloy sub-nose in 38Spcl +P. Therefore, almost the entire public for 38Super has some link to its modern competition heritage. As such, this crowd wants competition type performance in a civilian pistol. Therefore, looking at the cartridge from this vantage point it's easy to understand how ALL 38Super cartridge cases are now coming with the strengthened case head.


That's my story and I'm sticking to it.  ;D
« Last Edit: March 15, 2021, 10:01:31 AM by Wobbly »
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DJK11

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Re: 38 super brass
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2021, 09:59:26 AM »
Each of the two cases were zeroed on the scale then eye dropper filled until the filtered water formed a convex crown above the rim.  One additional drop would overflow the case.  Test repeated several times with same results.

Offline Wobbly

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Re: 38 super brass
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2021, 10:11:35 AM »
I got a collection of 38Super cartridge cases, of all types and ages. I'll go do the same testing and report back.


PS. Hush !! All this talk of 38Super is making me want to go load some and shoot !   :P
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Offline Wobbly

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Re: 38 super brass
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2021, 10:34:11 AM »
Found this interesting photo...

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DJK11

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Re: 38 super brass
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2021, 11:58:18 AM »
Okay thanks for the info and picture.  Looks like I”ll be band-sawing some brass later today.  I have a few GECO to cut as well.

A shooting bud asked how are we going to distinguish our spent brass.   Good question.  So I black oxide a hand full and I”ll see how it holds up.

DJK11

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Re: 38 super brass
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2021, 08:45:35 PM »
Duke just read my post again.  I stated that I filled the cases not kind of, sort of partially filled them.