When do I need to clean my 9mm P-09 and P-10 pistols?

[Joe L]

I think you are right.  I got the carbon out and it was packed in there pretty good, but I didn’t make a dent in the smoothing out the galling.  BUT, it doesn’t matter to me, because both of the rough P-10 barrels shoot absolutely perfectly.  I mean under 4” at 100 yards.  Every bit as good as the smoothly machined but pitted P-09 barrel. 

I think the criteria for me will be to just get down to where the galling is visible, that is, no carbon streaks in the grooves, and that is all, as far as cleaning these barrels.  I think the rougher barrels will just accumulate carbon quicker than the smooth one. 

Joe

[Joe L]

New Teslong pistol specific borescope arrived today, so I will take it to the mountains with me.  It is much easier to handle at my computer desk.  Optically and operationally seems identical to the original flexible rifle borescope.  I’ve made up some bushings and reflectors to get the most out of the little borescope.  Will include in a video later this week.  I hope.
Joe

[M1A4ME]

Have a great trip and be careful out on the highway.

[Joe L]

I have good video of the Friday 100 yard practice session with the P-09 and P-10F.  A software update has slowed me down as far as editing the P-10F footage.  I have viewed the footage and see something very interesting from the P-10F footage: 

For each 5 shot group, the first hit is the lowest and the last shot is the highest, with each hit just a little above the previous.  With some time between groups to load a magazine and view the results, and with no changes to the sight zero, the five shot groups duplicate right over each other, but with the same pattern, first shot low, last shot high. 

For the ten shot groups (and I only shot two), shot without a break after five shots, the second five hit higher than the first five, but group well, in other words, the hits don't continue to climb like they do with the first five.  Cleaning and oiling the lock up surfaces had no effect, so I don't think it is mechanical in the gun. 

My theory--Cold carbon on the rough surfaces affects the muzzle velocity and the carbon must soften up some as heat builds up from each successive shot until the temperatures stabilize, at which point the hits become consistent and repeatable but not where the gun was zeroed.  I saw this on the P-10S on Thursday but did not recognize the pattern other than the first shot low for each string.  I'll have to go back and look at the Thursday video to confirm. 

If it were a sight problem, the first shot would not return to where the previous string hit and the last shots would not overlay from one string to the next.  If it was a lock up problem, usually the first shot is high, not low, and then the remaining shots are consistent.  Since I was shooting the P-09 well and was using the same ammo in all three guns, I'm thinking the one known difference in the pistols--the bore finish--is the most likely cause.  If I am correct, then cleaning all the carbon out of the galled/rough grooves in the P-10F and P-10S was not the right approach.  Plus I know the guns shoot just as well as the P-09 when there is a LOT of carbon in the grooves.   What I don't know is how much is too much.  I am pretty sure I have learned how much is too little, however. 

I'll try to put together a video of the P-09 versus P-10F and P-10S later this weekend, time permitting. 

Joe

[Joe L]

No video yet.  I placed an order for a Primary Machine P-10F barrel, black nitride, non-threaded.  The barrel will most likely be smooth like my excellent and very consistent P-09 barrel.  It is almost cheaper to replace the barrel than it will be to shoot enough ammo in the factory P-10F barrel to fill in enough rough spots so that it will shoot consistently well again.  And then I still won't know how much I can clean it without ruining it.  All this for 100-200 yard targets only, not needed for shorter.  All I want to see is the same consistency with the P-10F as I see with the P-09. 

I 'scoped the P-09 barrel this morning and it has a very smooth layer of carbon and some copper in the grooves but nothing out of the ordinary.  And I know that, if I clean it, it won't ruin it. 

I'll probably put a Primary Machine barrel in the P-10S also, if and when they are available.  I don't remember what the P-10C barrel looks like, but I think it is similar to my P-09 barrel.  More later this week.  I have to recover from the Ruidoso trip.  19 hours of driving round trip just to get one 3 minute video!! 

Just kidding.  It was worth the effort.  I got to shoot a lot (of photos and video) while we were there.  And it was cool and very pleasant weather, plus the scenery to/from was very enjoyable. 

Joe

[Joe L]

Here is the P-09 barrel after the 200 yard session in New Mexico and after one dry patch. 

https://youtu.be/c_eV5Eo4wRw

[Joe L]

And here is what the P-10F barrel looks like after the poor 100 yard session in New Mexico but before cleaning.   (Won't finish uploading until about 7:45 pm CST.)

https://youtu.be/ctGUfDG4l-s

The carbon buildup in the rough grooves is not consistent nor is it smooth.  I think the rough groove surface finish is the culprit here.

[Joe L]

Here is a side by side borescope video of the P-09 and P-10F barrels, should be viewable by 12:30pm CDT.  I am going to replace the P-10F barrel with one from Primary Machine, due tomorrow, will shoot it probably Tuesday of next week. 

https://youtu.be/REnMuVEa6ro

Overnight soak in Hoppe's #9 followed by Hoppe's Black Copper Cleaner and a few patches seemed to work well, although there is still carbon in both barrels, it is very thin in the P-09 barrel and I may not shoot the P-10F barrel again any time soon anyway. 

I have made some bushings for the borescope that work fairly well, but Teslong has a mirror available now that fits the 9mm bores well without my home made bushing, arriving Saturday.  so I may redo some of the pistol borescope videos after the new stuff arrives this weekend. 

Nothing seems to hurt the P-09 barrel.  Nothing seems to help the P-10F barrel other than not cleaning it and letting the carbon build up and stay in the rough grooves.  I bet the Primary Machine barrel is a smooth as my P-09 barrel and that it is much more consistent than the factory P-10F barrel.  If it is, then I'll get one for the P-10S also, when available. 

Joe 

[M1A4ME]

Joe, my experience with my old P07 .40 barrel is that it looks (bare eye with reading glasses) so smooth/shiny it looks polished.  Never hard to clean, even after shooting lead bullets.  I very seldom even use a brush.  Just two or three dry patches most cleanings and only now and then one patch with Hoppes#9 with two or three dry patches after.

With a bore scope it's a different thing.  Ugly.  But the bore scope image doesn't seem to affect how fast is comes clean.

I've had my P09 lead up a bit but can't say if that's bullets or barrel.  I don't think I've ever scoped the P09 barrel as I seldom shoot it these days (sad, the most accurate pistol I have and I almost never shoot it.)

I have an old M1917 Winchester with a badly pitted barrel.  I remember deciding (one day/one time) I was going to really clean it up.  Finally gave up.  No matter how many times I bore solvent patched it and brushed it followed by dry patches I just kept getting crud out of it.  Those pits make wonderful crud storage areas.  But as the old M1917 still shoots just fine I stopped worrying about that one years ago.

[Joe L]

Yep, that is the dilemma.  The P-09/75B/97B"E"/P-07/P-10C barrels clean up pretty easily but shoot well consistently.  The all are smooth compared to the P-10F and S barrels.  The P-10F and S barrels shoot extremely well when they are dirty enough, but shoot less well just after a deep cleaning.  The best day at 100 yards I've had as far as shooting multiple good groups was with the dirty P-10S of all things.  Now that was a surprise.  And there have been days when the P-10F is a match for the P-09.  I just don't know how dirty is good enough for accuracy and how clean is good enough to minimize pitting.  I've tried both extremes now.  Consistent deep cleaning favors the smooth barrels as far as accuracy and corrosion minimization goes.  Once the rough barrels get dirty enough to smooth out the rough surfaces, I think, they shoot perfectly and deep cleaning them really does hurt the repeatability again.  I'll go with the smooth barrels when possible from now on.
Joe