New goal==polymer CZ's at 200 yards from a wrist rest

[Joe L]

I'm going to New Mexico next week and one task I am going to try there is to get 5 out of 10 shots on a B-16C bullseye from 200 yards with at least one of my CZ polymer frame standard service pistols.  I'll probably concentrate on the P-10F and P-09, but the P-10S is certainly up to the task, just maybe not with the ammo I have right now.

And I got my intensive abrasive VFG pellets today so I am pretty sure I will be able to get the carbon out of my barrels before heading off to the mountains.  And I have some modifications to the borescope setup that make it much easier to maintain camera focus and clarity.  Videos coming this weekend.  Shooting videos at 200 yards next week, weather and mental condition permitting. 

Joe

[Fuzzy Sights]

Looking forward to the videos.  Just know someday I will see pictures of an F-Class rifle match and you are going to be there with you 97.

JW

[dudester]

Staying on the paper @ 200 yards is a pretty bada$$ shot with a pistol, I doubt I could even see the target without some kind of optic. If you don't mind me asking, what is the purpose, is it a competition thing or just for fun? Either way more power to you bud.

[Joe L]

Purpose--To challenge myself just for fun.  I try to shoot at 100 once/week at my local close-by public shooting range, weather permitting.  I can't shoot at 200 at this range.  When I travel to New Mexico every month or two, I can shoot at the 200 yard distance at a private club range.  I haven't tried it often this year due to ammo shortages and having some difficulty at 100. 

The first time I tried 200 with a pistol equipped with a red dot was in 2014, at the same New Mexico range but before the lead catchers were added.  That was with a P-09.  Since then, I've shot the P-10F, P-10S, and P-10C at 200, with surprisingly good results with the P-10S.  I've probably shot over a thousand rounds at 200 yards with the 9mm pistols.  I have several five shot groups under 8"  but the average group size is probably closer to 12".  Wind can be a challenge at 200 with an 1100 fps bullet.  Eyesight is definitely the biggest factor, as in placing the dot in exactly the same position for each shot and then not moving the pistol at all as the trigger is pulled. 

I got pretty excited when I tried this the first time in 2014.  I was fortunate to have caught it on video:

https://youtu.be/Jx9A1KbeTBw

Here is an attempt at 200 with the P-10S from 2019:

https://youtu.be/-1o5bocyEV8

The B-16C target has a black 8 ring.  The B-8c targets above have a smaller bullseye, covering the 9 ring.  I want to try to get at least five shots in the black 8 ring target.

Joe

[Joe L]

I'm in New Mexico and made it to the range finally today, but I only shot the P-10F and S at 100 yards with the IMI ammo.  As expected, the pistols were a little finicky until they each had about 30 rounds through them, then they settled down.  I'm not going to clean them yet, instead, I am going to go back to the range tomorrow and see if the results are good at 100.  Today, only 6" groups and consistently low first shot of five on each sequence.  The P-10S groups were not quite up to par and I think it is just because the IMI ammo just isn't as good a match for the 3.5" barrel as the Atlanta Arms 115 JHP which is not available right now.  I didn't shoot the P-09 today.  My plan is to put some rounds through it on Friday and compare to the P-10F after some carbon has filled in the rough spots on the P-10F barrel.  I expect the P-09 to shoot fine from the first shot, even with the IMI ammo.  More tomorrow, and maybe Saturday.

[Joe L]

Here is the video of the last 10 shots on Thursday from the P-10F, just for reference, assuming I have good results on Friday. 

https://youtu.be/O5Y-cySqpwI

[Joe L]

I took the P-10F and P-09 to the range this morning and shot 40 rounds through each.  I started with the P-09 and, as always, had a good day, even with the IMI 115 gr JHP ammo instead of my favorite Atlanta Arms 115 gr JHP ammo.   Here is the best ten shot sequence from the P-09.  YouTube may need another 20 minutes or so to get this video ready.  It is only about 2 minutes long. 

https://youtu.be/jcIh0acVMgI

I tried the P-10F again with no changes and still had too much vertical spread, so I cleaned the lock up surfaces and added some light oil and tried it again, still, the groups were not good, very similar to yesterday.  I am going to skip 200 yards with the striker guns until I have some more Atlanta Arms ammo.  I may still try the P-09 at 200 with the IMI ammo, even though the results today were not super good, just average. 

More tomorrow. 

Joe

[Joe L]

I made it to the range this morning with the P-09 and shot it at 200 yards with good results.  Two roughly 8" five shot groups under perfect conditions with IMI ammo.  It was a great day for me and the polymer hammer gun.  I left the striker pistols at home.  Video later today. 

Joe

[armoredman]

Nice work, sir, thank you for sharing! I think that I am lucky to SEE the target at that range - I'm happy when I get them all in the black at 25 yards! Too bad you didn't slide through New Mexico over to Arizona and try the P-10FCR.

[Joe L]

AM--I may make it one of these days, just not this week! 

Here is the video I made of today's 200 yard session.  I might be able to improve on this with a different aim point and the Atlantic Arms ammo, but I think the real limitation is what is always is--placing the dot in exactly the same place on every shot, and not moving the gun while pulling the trigger.  Video may take a few more minutes to process by YouTube.  Let me know what you think.

https://youtu.be/EfepV4sfwQQ

This is fun.  This is not easy. 

Joe

[Joe L]

Some conclusions from this week in the mountains of New Mexico with the polymer pistols:

1.  The P-09 with its very smooth machining in the barrel always shoots well and the carbon build up is very slow and uniform so has little effect on accuracy. 

2.  The IMI Systems 9mm JHP box ammo is an excellent substitute for the Atlanta Arms 115 gr JHP that I preferred until the shortages hit and it was unavailable.  I've stocked up on the IMI because of the great results I've had over the last year. 

3.  Deep cleaning the very roughly machined (galled?) P-10F and P-10S barrels was not a good idea.  They became inconsistent in vertical spread at 100 yards and seemed to be very much temperature sensitive as the carbon was building up in the grooves.  I stopped shooting them with less than 100 rounds through each this week, but will continue when I get home or just replace the barrels.  Note that they shoot fine when they look the worst via a borescope, as in as good as the P-09.  Note also that the rough bore is only noticed at 100 yards with a red dot, which is not what I would consider normal service for this type pistol.  This only matters to me. 

4.  The CZ P-09 pistol and red dot and IMI ammo is as good as it gets mechanically.  The gun hits where it was aimed when it went off.  Every time.  One has to aim it at exactly the same spot from one shot to the next and then not move the gun as the trigger is moved to shoot good groups at long distances.  The shooter's skill and eyesight is the limitation, and that is the way it should be.  I have enough experience now to be very aware of exactly where the dot was when I hear the gun go off.  I can "call my shots" when shooting the P-09 or 97B"E".   A bad result is the shooter.  Always.  Good groups are the result of shooter+gun+ammo. 

This is fun.  This is not easy.

Joe

[M1A4ME]

Joe, I don't know about you and your red dots.  I'm not even sure on a pistol it makes a difference.  I have tried several red dots on rifles and if the rifle shows promise I switch to a scope and immediately see better/tighter groups.

I just can't hold a red dot where I want it shot after shot.  Not something like an Aimpoint , one of the PA red dots or the other brand I tried and didn't like due to the short battery life (darn thing would eat the battery sitting in the corner with the red dot turned off.)

Put a scope on it and the groups are so much better.

If you could put a pistol scope on one of those pistols I wonder if you'd see the groups tighten up even more?

[Joe L]

M1A4ME--I have an Ultradot tube type red dot on my Kadet.  Optically, sure, it is better than the reflex sight.  But the sight doesn't cycle with the bolt so it works great with the Kadet.  The most common configuration for bullseye centerfire is a 1911 with an Ultradot.  Those seem to be preferred to the reflex red dot like I use on my 97B"E". 

At 100 or 200 yards from a rest, at least the way I do it, which is with a wrist rest, there is no support under the dust cover and the gun will move some while being aimed.  It "wobbles".  The groups seem to be greatly dependent on how well I can see the aim point and on how steady I am as I pull the trigger.  With this arrangement, a tube type scope makes seeing the wobble easier. 

I prefer the tube type Ultradot due to the clearer picture but it won't help on holding the gun steady.  When I've tried some type of dust cover rest, it just changes the tension needed in the wrist to aim the gun and the change in tension due to the constraint at the front of the gun is unnatural to me and the groups got larger.  May just be me.  A free gun with no constraint seems to work best for me, at least when I am rested and calm, cool, and collected.  As I get older, I may have to try a different approach.  Right now, I'm almost as good as a Ransom Rest, well, kinda.