Author Topic: Observations on CZ Scorpion OOB's  (Read 1644 times)

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Offline DJC Scorpion

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Observations on CZ Scorpion OOB's
« on: July 23, 2022, 05:12:55 PM »
Hi to everyone here.  I have been lurking here for a few years and first want to thank everyone here for all their knowledge throughout the years.  My scorpion project would of never gotten done without all your help. 
     Now to a few observations about the OOB(out of battery) kabooms that have been reported.  First, from all the reading I have done, it seems to be no more common than on the MP5 platform, and a bit less than on the blowback AR 9mm platforms.  Those two platforms DO have one big advantage over the Scorpion when a OOB happens:  they are metal in the receiver.  A OOB in them usually blows out the bottom of the magazine(not ALL the time, but a bullet can lodge in the barrel...) and you clear, dump the mag, check the barrel, bore and chamber, and start over. With the Scorpion, the left side of the receiver can blow out(usually? Blow out...) and it's to the mothership or gunsmith or writing off the Scorp.  But why does it happen in the first place on the Scorp?  From my reading I found that one case was a slow fire on semi-auto that killed it in the first few shots.  A few implicated bump-fire, binary-triggers, and/or bad ammunition.
     My take on this starts with an observation:  open bolt blowback 9mm sub-machine guns slam fire with a firing pin machined into the bolt face.  They can have an OOB for a few different reasons: dirty chamber with a partial obstruction, etc., seems reasonable.  The UZI, M1A1 Thompson, MAC all do this.  BUT when it does happen to them the metal in the receiver contains most of the explosion(sidebar:  the machinegun Scorpion A1 is closed bolt with a safety auto sear that physically holds back the hammer until the bolt is fully forward, and only then can the hammer fall-and it uses a striker unlike the afore mentioned sub guns).  I couldn't figure why or how the Scorp S1 could KB at all even if it slam fired.  If the bolt is closing, the round is going into the  chamber, but the extractor has not grabbed the cartridge yet.  That happens as the mouth of the cartridge stops in the chamber, the bolt keeps going forward, the extractor snaps over the cartridge, and the cartridge now is being held to the bolt face.  Theorizing this is essentially the same as the UZI or M1A1 but without the firing pin actually being proud of the bolt face at this time.  So, even if the hammer should strike at this exact moment it should be fine?  So what the heck is happening?  I read one post that said something that made a lot of sense:  bolt bounce.  If the bolt goes through all the above, then bounces back slightly, the cartridge is still held firmly to the bolt face, if the hammer is just behind the firing pin and hits the firing pin detonating the cartridge, and you have a OOB, which might be a KB also.  I personally think that is a partial answer.  There are also some 9mm rounds that are a little longer than others, weaker 9mm cases, etc.  And I think bump firing is a huge risk:  the gun is held looser than normal and that affects the harmonics and dwell time of the bolt speed in relation to the chamber, and that can affect if there is a bounce and how much there is.  I also think that Binary triggers are not that much of a danger:  the A1 sub gun shoots at 1150-1200 Rpm, and the fastest i have ever gone with a binary trigger was around 600 Rpm.   I feel this makes a binary trigger as safe a any on this platform, YMMV.
     Now lastly:  the firing pin block.  A lot of writing has stated that the block is faulty, allowing an OOB.  Now, a few of them have not been working properly and there are lots of postings on how to check and or fix the issue.  But one thing I strongly feel is that the block is NOT to prevent an OOB, its not designed for that.  It is a drop safety only.  Now I know that is an unpopular opinion, and I get that.  I too wish that BATF had allowed the safety sear to remain in the S1, but there is nothing we can do about that.  As an aside, the Fostech binary triggers for the AR-15 and AK-47 both have a safety lever that only allows a hammer trip after the bolt is fully forward.  But that one is not fully Automatic:  the hammer only can fall if you pull the trigger after the bolt is fully forward.  If pulled too early you have to pull or release the trigger again to get a shot off.  CZ and the binary trigger guys(Franklin I'm calling you out on this...)could/should do this to make the gun safer.
     As usual, this is all IMHO, and YMMV.  All opinions are welcome here, as I'm SURE I missed something here.

Offline AZ_CZ

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Re: Observations on CZ Scorpion OOB's
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2022, 06:42:18 PM »
I’ll have read all of that later but honestly this the first time I’ve ever heard of it. I have one the first batch of carbines and have lots and lots of rounds fired with no issue. Same for my UZI. Guess I’m not shooting fast enough.

What model Scorpion are you shooting and have you had any issues?
CZ Fanbot since 1996

Offline DJC Scorpion

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Re: Observations on CZ Scorpion OOB's
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2022, 06:54:16 PM »
Hi.  I have a EVO S1, the 7.71" barrel one.  It is a registered SBR now, with a Franklin  binary trigger and a rugged obsidian 9 registered suppressor.  It runs great, though the binary took some tuning.  But I am meticulous about the chamber  being clean, and I check the extractor, FP block  FP, and FP channel regularly for debries.  I still wonder if a good quality steel cased ammo might be more resistant to ruptured cases.....

Offline DJC Scorpion

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Re: Observations on CZ Scorpion OOB's
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2022, 09:01:05 AM »
Good Saturday morning!  I have a further observation on OOB's in pistol caliber carbines.  I have heard/read/seen of OOB's in the PSA AKV, but so far NEVER in the Kusa KP-9/KR-9.  Spiked by curiosity I bought(I have a very cool wife, and am retired now with lots of time and little sense...) a Fostech edition of the KP-9.  Behold:  it has TWO locks to prevent a premature detonation before the bolt is fully forward!  The first is courtesy of it's bolt:  it has a very clever firing pin block that only disengaged at the last millimeter of forward bolt travel by the ejector.  The 2nd is in the Fostech trigger itself:  until the bolt is fully forward the hammer cannot drop(although I personally think that a perfect storm could occur where it allowed the hammer to release, then the bolt bounced back, and given that senario the afore mentioned block would catch it...but I digress....).  So CZ Scorpion could do a fairly easy re-design to get a firing pin block in there that only allowed firing if fully forward.  Extra credit:  I(YMMV) believe for a safety like the KP-9 has to work effectively in the Scorpion, it's ejector would need to be relocated so it's more rigid-now it's in the trigger housing and can move around a bit and that's not ideal for this fix(note:  the KP-9 uses the standard AK fixed ejector in the frame-no flex).  Second note:  the PSA AK-V could easily incorporate this fix.
     So, just a few additional observations...happy shooting!