Author Topic: Trigger Warning: Shotguns Are The BEST For Home Defense!  (Read 5968 times)

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Offline Gunnerdad80

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Re: Trigger Warning: Shotguns Are The BEST For Home Defense!
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2023, 11:59:28 AM »
I miss my 12 gauge pistol grip pump. :(

Offline MeatAxe

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Re: Trigger Warning: Shotguns Are The BEST For Home Defense!
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2023, 01:54:15 PM »
I miss my 12 gauge pistol grip pump. :(

You must be a masochist!!!

Offline RSR

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Re: Trigger Warning: Shotguns Are The BEST For Home Defense!
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2023, 01:05:07 AM »
Lol, no you won't. Go shoot an open tip 9mm at a piece of dry wall, put a 2x4 behind it too. If you place a cardboard target behind that and shoot through them all, you'll see a nice, round hole in the cardboard.

Open tip 9mm fills up with softer media like wood or drywall and behaves like an FMJ with velocity inadequate for expansion or fragmentation.

Expanding 223 is the safest choice of all (especially plastic tipped options). It has the energy to make the projectile expand as designed.

Expanding is not what results in reduced .223/5.56 penetration through drywall...  It's tumbling for increased surface area/reduced sectional density when hitting with its side when penetrating subsequent layers of drywall, etc.  .223/5.56 soft points/ballistic tips (everything but frangible) and 9mm hps perform quite similarly through drywall.

For instance: https://www.alloutdoor.com/2018/10/09/drywall-penetration-9mm-vs-223-vs-22-lr/
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He uses a Glock 9mm in a carbine conversion with a 16" barrel for the 9mm portion of the test. The Blazer Brass 124-grain FMJ (about 1300 fps) penetrated 22 layers of 3/8" sheet rock and dented number 23.

For 223, he uses an AR with Perfecta 55-grain FMJ ammo, which travels around 2800 fps. It penetrated the same number of drywall layers, but shredded them more dramatically.

Back to 9mm, he tries out a hollowpoint 124-grain Remington Golden Saber Black Belt +P round (about 1400 fps). That bullet went through 17 layers of sheet rock, shredding their back surfaces similarly to the 223 bullet. Expansion of the hollow point was minimal, which is to be expected in a non-hydraulic medium (drywall instead of meat).

223 again: Hornady V-Max 55-grain bullet. Designed for varmints, the V-Max is meant to provide “rapid, explosive expansion” (2930 fps). This one made it through 13 layers of drywall before what was left of the bullet came to rest.

To top it off, he grabs a lever-action carbine and some CCI Mini-Mag 22LR ammo, with 40-grain round nose bullets (1220 fps). This one makes it through 11 layers. The same round fired from a semi-auto pistol with a 4" barrel (929 fps) made it through 10 layers — the equivalent of 5 household walls.

The moral of today’s video seems to be this: If you think your 9mm will go through significantly fewer walls than a 223, you’d probably be wrong. And the 22 can be a lot more effective than some folks would have you believe.

What results in reduced 9mm penetration with high velocity 9mm non-bonded rounds is that they fragment rather violently through intermediate barriers including drywall as being pushed at velocities beyond their designed limits so break into smaller pieces rather than staying intact.

BUT even then 9mm has MUCH less flash and blast out of 10-16" barrels than 5.56 out of the same -- meaning you can communicate and maintain much greater situational awareness. 

Reasons for FN 5.7 include, but not an exhaustive list:
- intermediate barrier penetration more similar to 22lr than 5.56,
- ballistic performance similar to if not exceeding shorty 5.56 guns (since loads designed for shorter barrels),
- flash and blast similar to 9mm or .22 mag,
- pistol grip FN 5.7 "carbines" w/ 16" barrels meaning much more compact and better balance for single handle control than forward magwells,
- ability to run many rimfire suppressors, meaning less weight off the front-end to retain rear bias balance (so not necessarily needing support hand forward, and also a testament to reduced flash and blast relative to .223)

Negatives are obviously the cost of ammo and it being a somewhat unique and difficult to find caliber, limited weapon systems for it, and a somewhat unique or niche manual of arms across most available weapon systems.

But for older folks, women who also need to be corralling kids, etc., it's an extremely low recoiling, compact, and ballistically capable caliber at common civilian self defense distances that has a lot going for it, all things considered IMO.

YMMV.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2023, 01:10:57 AM by RSR »

Offline RSR

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Re: Trigger Warning: Shotguns Are The BEST For Home Defense!
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2023, 01:06:58 AM »
I miss my 12 gauge pistol grip pump. :(

You must be a masochist!!!

Or shoots mini shells...

Offline RSR

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Re: Trigger Warning: Shotguns Are The BEST For Home Defense!
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2023, 01:40:11 AM »

Offline Gunnerdad80

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Re: Trigger Warning: Shotguns Are The BEST For Home Defense!
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2023, 10:24:16 AM »

Offline Crawl

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Re: Trigger Warning: Shotguns Are The BEST For Home Defense!
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2023, 10:39:56 AM »
All the YouTube tests in the world don't add up to enough valid data points to support the use of any particular ammo for self defense. No one has the knowledge, budget, or time to properly test the rounds adequately.

You buy whatever ammo you want, but I'm never intentionally participating in a gunfight with ammo that relies on fragmentation for ANYTHING. It's unpredictable and unreliable; and "damage" or "manstopping power" have nothing to do with winning a gun fight. You need a round that will penetrate to the central nervous system in the first try, but one that doesn't smoke through your walls into yilour neighbor's house (whether you get hits or misses).

Offline RSR

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Re: Trigger Warning: Shotguns Are The BEST For Home Defense!
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2023, 02:47:17 AM »
All the YouTube tests in the world don't add up to enough valid data points to support the use of any particular ammo for self defense. No one has the knowledge, budget, or time to properly test the rounds adequately.

You buy whatever ammo you want, but I'm never intentionally participating in a gunfight with ammo that relies on fragmentation for ANYTHING. It's unpredictable and unreliable; and "damage" or "manstopping power" have nothing to do with winning a gun fight. You need a round that will penetrate to the central nervous system in the first try, but one that doesn't smoke through your walls into yilour neighbor's house (whether you get hits or misses).

My point here is that pretty much anything sufficient to incapacitate a human with one shot will "smoke through your walls into your neighbor's house" if you miss.  That's why accuracy/precision is paramount, and one of the main reasons why buckshot/shotguns are criticized in the original vids in this series.

Make what you will of youtube vids, but when a preponderance of testing agrees -- it's indicative of likely performance, but yes, is not indicative of statistically significant probable to certain performance without the necessary sample size.  What we get from multiple youtube vids is something of a meta analysis that's greater than the sum of its parts, albeit with a lot of limitations and caveats -- but as far as I'm aware offhand none of them results in outright refuting the results and claiming that the exact opposite of the vids' findings is "correct."

But as always, YMMV.

Offline Bob Wilkins

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Re: Trigger Warning: Shotguns Are The BEST For Home Defense!
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2023, 11:01:12 AM »
All the YouTube tests in the world don't add up to enough valid data points to support the use of any particular ammo for self defense. No one has the knowledge, budget, or time to properly test the rounds adequately.

You buy whatever ammo you want, but I'm never intentionally participating in a gunfight with ammo that relies on fragmentation for ANYTHING. It's unpredictable and unreliable; and "damage" or "manstopping power" have nothing to do with winning a gun fight. You need a round that will penetrate to the central nervous system in the first try, but one that doesn't smoke through your walls into yilour neighbor's house (whether you get hits or misses).

My point here is that pretty much anything sufficient to incapacitate a human with one shot will "smoke through your walls into your neighbor's house" if you miss.  That's why accuracy/precision is paramount, and one of the main reasons why buckshot/shotguns are criticized in the original vids in this series.

Make what you will of youtube vids, but when a preponderance of testing agrees -- it's indicative of likely performance, but yes, is not indicative of statistically significant probable to certain performance without the necessary sample size.  What we get from multiple youtube vids is something of a meta analysis that's greater than the sum of its parts, albeit with a lot of limitations and caveats -- but as far as I'm aware offhand none of them results in outright refuting the results and claiming that the exact opposite of the vids' findings is "correct."

But as always, YMMV.

Sorry, but that first line and what you claim is your major point is utterly wrong. A high velocity frangible lightweight bullet is surely incapacitating while generally exceptionally poor in hard target penetration, and why I depend on my .22WMR semi-suto Brno 611 for inside the house close range repel boarders gun. It all depends upon bullet/projectile construction, weight and velocity. A .223/5.56 loaded with varmint loads of lightweight thin jacketed/soft lead/SP would be quite unlikely to do more than blow up on drywall all by itself, much less exterior walls.

Buckshot will penetrate, slugs will penetrate more, birdshot far safer for neighbors and it has the same total weight hitting at same velocity in same fist sized pattern at interior ranges as buckshot...it will not penetrate a live target very much past washing flesh from bone, but is a heck of a blow and one or three such would be mighty discouraging if a shotgun must be used.

Likewise my .45ACP 230gr FMJ soft lead core at 830fps (lucky to penetrate a car door) not near the danger to neighbors as my .45 Colt 255gr SWC harder cast at 1000-1200fps loads (easily shoots through both sides of a car).
« Last Edit: August 16, 2023, 03:53:54 PM by Bob Wilkins »

Offline RSR

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Re: Trigger Warning: Shotguns Are The BEST For Home Defense!
« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2023, 05:27:30 AM »
Sorry, but that first line and what you claim is your major point is utterly wrong. A high velocity frangible lightweight bullet is surely incapacitating while generally exceptionally poor in hard target penetration, and why I depend on my .22WMR semi-suto Brno 611 for inside the house close range repel boarders gun. It all depends upon bullet/projectile construction, weight and velocity. A .223/5.56 loaded with varmint loads of lightweight thin jacketed/soft lead/SP would be quite unlikely to do more than blow up on drywall all by itself, much less exterior walls.

Buckshot will penetrate, slugs will penetrate more, birdshot far safer for neighbors and it has the same total weight hitting at same velocity in same fist sized pattern at interior ranges as buckshot...it will not penetrate a live target very much past washing flesh from bone, but is a heck of a blow and one or three such would be mighty discouraging if a shotgun must be used.

Likewise my .45ACP 230gr FMJ soft lead core at 830fps (lucky to penetrate a car door) not near the danger to neighbors as my .45 Colt 255gr SWC harder cast at 1000-1200fps loads (easily shoots through both sides of a car).

There are so many contradictions in this reply that I truly don't know where to start.

I will say that wounding or drawing blood is not the same as incapacitating, and I'll also mention that even the NRA Fudd's recognize that frangible ammo isn't ideal for self defense situations: https://www.nrafamily.org/content/frangible-ammunition-pros-cons-myths/
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Frangible ammo is not without its downsides. First, because it doesn’t penetrate well, frangible ammo is not the ammo of choice for most self-defense scenarios that are unpredictable by their very nature. In other words, you likely will not know what a would-be attacker might be wearing in terms of armor or heavy clothing, and so most self-defenses experts opine that it's best to hedge on the side of bullet penetration when your life's on the line. Perhaps an attacker breaks into your home and takes cover behind a couch as he fires a weapon at you. A premium, controlled expansion bullet would likely be capable of penetrating the couch and stopping his attack, while a frangible bullet would likely not.

And varmint .223/5.56 ammo is designed to remain intact; however, is intended to expand faster/sooner than self-defense ammo for two-legged predators in the same caliber.

You'll notice that in my responses in this thread note your assertion here:
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It all depends upon bullet/projectile construction, weight and velocity.

And your assertion that follows is laughable given numerous data points to the contrary -- none that I've seen even remotely supporting:
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A .223/5.56 loaded with varmint loads of lightweight thin jacketed/soft lead/SP would be quite unlikely to do more than blow up on drywall all by itself, much less exterior walls.

Re: shotguns, you sound a lot like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj1GaX_-E-E

Just noting you start with .22 wmr being acceptable self-defense and end with .45 cal fuddery...  Not throwing .30-06 or .308 references in for good measure?

Offline RSR

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Re: Trigger Warning: Shotguns Are The BEST For Home Defense!
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2023, 05:59:22 PM »
Sorry, but that first line and what you claim is your major point is utterly wrong. A high velocity frangible lightweight bullet is surely incapacitating while generally exceptionally poor in hard target penetration, and why I depend on my .22WMR semi-suto Brno 611 for inside the house close range repel boarders gun. It all depends upon bullet/projectile construction, weight and velocity. A .223/5.56 loaded with varmint loads of lightweight thin jacketed/soft lead/SP would be quite unlikely to do more than blow up on drywall all by itself, much less exterior walls.

Restoring some sense and data to this conversation by addressing highlighted portions above -- emphasis above mine for what's addressed below.

Starting w/ 5.56 varmint and frangible -- this is a pretty robust test:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Aq3INocE28

Garand Thumb vid earlier in this post is also a testament re: VMax.

And secondly to .22 wmr -- it isn't even remotely close in actual performance to 5.7x28, and I don't believe it to retain sufficient mass at approximately 1/2 bullet weight (after fragmenting, so 20-25 grains) to reliably penetrate to incapacitate.  Further 5.7x28 and .22 wmr weapons can be rapidly shot accurately at the same rate, so that discussion is also moot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbfGxsUeUrU

Excerpt from 8:23 in above vid: https://youtu.be/rbfGxsUeUrU?t=503
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Based on what we've gotten for our data here, those who like to say -- "oh my god, the FN five seven is just another souped up 22 magnum" -- well, you're dead wrong.

His FN 5.7 vid for comparison:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXyfDcsLSyY

And these vids confirm the same:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAJR_DDgcaY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzdpG-V_6VI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cf0dzIsELDE

Lastly, .22 wmr gold dot and federal punch both run in excess of 50 cents per round MSRP and generally around $1 per round from resellers if you can find them, which puts the caliber into the same, if not higher, cost per round category as 5.7x28 ammo and also 2x the cost of 5.56 self-defense ammo...
And all of this ballistic and cost considerations/detriments is before we jump into rimfire's inherent reliability detriments and .22 wmr REQUIRING longer barrels than 5.7x28 for advertised performance.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2023, 06:03:40 PM by RSR »

Offline Crawl

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Re: Trigger Warning: Shotguns Are The BEST For Home Defense!
« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2023, 06:17:31 PM »


All the YouTube tests in the world don't add up to enough valid data points to support the use of any particular ammo for self defense. No one has the knowledge, budget, or time to properly test the rounds adequately.

You buy whatever ammo you want, but I'm never intentionally participating in a gunfight with ammo that relies on fragmentation for ANYTHING. It's unpredictable and unreliable; and "damage" or "manstopping power" have nothing to do with winning a gun fight. You need a round that will penetrate to the central nervous system in the first try, but one that doesn't smoke through your walls into yilour neighbor's house (whether you get hits or misses).

My point here is that pretty much anything sufficient to incapacitate a human with one shot will "smoke through your walls into your neighbor's house" if you miss. 

We are, more or less, in agreement with the possible exception of the above.

There are rounds available that can reliably incapacitate (you and I seem to have the same definition) and have a decreased probability to continue through walls after exiting (or on missed shots) because of the deformation of the projectile (or its propensity to expand).

Additionally, it's worth considering whether those caveats and limitations are too easily tossed aside.

“There are no solutions, there are only trade-offs; and you try to get the best trade-off you can get, that's all you can hope for.”

Offline RSR

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Re: Trigger Warning: Shotguns Are The BEST For Home Defense!
« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2023, 11:19:17 PM »
We are, more or less, in agreement with the possible exception of the above.

There are rounds available that can reliably incapacitate (you and I seem to have the same definition) and have a decreased probability to continue through walls after exiting (or on missed shots) because of the deformation of the projectile (or its propensity to expand).

Additionally, it's worth considering whether those caveats and limitations are too easily tossed aside.

“There are no solutions, there are only trade-offs; and you try to get the best trade-off you can get, that's all you can hope for.”

If you have a brick or stone facade, concrete or mortar block walls, and potentially some of the more robust stucco assemblies, then I might agree with your position...  And there are the obvious caveats for hitting studs or structural bracing, etc.

But for instance here in Texas and much of the south, some exterior sheathing in builder grade tract homes is in fact just poly coated cardboard with vinyl siding to the exterior except at structural corners where there is a couple feet of plywood or OSB...  And there are instances of burglars kicking/hammering their way into homes between the studs...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leAWPZzaWL4

So if it the round leaves such a house, it's highly likely to go into your neighbor's home as well -- effectively you're dealing with the equivalent of less than 2 drywall interior wall assemblies, provided no interior wall pass throughs or window/stud/etc. impacts, between your house and your neighbors' homes if all similarly constructed...