Author Topic: After Obama win, U.S. backs new U.N. arms treaty talks  (Read 4614 times)

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Offline JimThornTX

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Re: After Obama win, U.S. backs new U.N. arms treaty talks
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2012, 11:46:17 AM »
That is flat out WRONG.  You are mistating what the supremacy clause says and does.  Treaties do not override our Constitution and I am amazed you could even think that.

75Plus didn't say that. He quoted what was said in an article.

Haven't you figured out by now the Government, and the police, will do whatever they want, whenever they want, and will only stop when and if a court tells them to stop? Just look at all the cities and states that limit, or out-right ban, owning and/or carrying certain types of firearms. Firearms that are clearly protected under the 2nd Amendment. Yet these cities and states ignored the 2nd Amendment anyway. And only when the US Supreme Court intervened did these limits get lifted. And the only reason the US Supreme Court got involved is because someone had the courage to file a lawsuit.

Hypothetical scenario: The ATT is passed and signed into law. Gun control begins on a massive scale. Who or what is going to stop it? Nobody. Not until someone files a lawsuit. And then only if that lawsuit makes it to the US Supreme Court. And then only if the Court agrees to take the case. And then only if the Court sides with the 2nd Amendment and strikes down the ATT.

We won our individual firearms freedom by a vote of 5 to 4. One vote. One moderate judge is why we can still (for now) enjoy freedoms guaranteed to us by the 2nd Amendment. Just think what the vote would be in the future if, God forbid, a Conservative judge steps down and Obama is allowed to appoint a Liberal judge in their place.
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Offline bozwell

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Re: After Obama win, U.S. backs new U.N. arms treaty talks
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2012, 01:06:45 PM »
Quoting it is affirming it in my book.  Distorting the Constitution to drive up fear about a treaty is a poor way to garner support in my book.  There is simply not enough detail about this treaty yet to say how it would affect us, if at all.  As for the judicial process requiring a lawsuit to get the ball rolling, of course it does.  How else would it work?

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Offline bozwell

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Re: After Obama win, U.S. backs new U.N. arms treaty talks
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2012, 01:26:34 PM »
To elaborate a bit, first off, what makes you assume that the ATT would cause massive gun control on a national scale?  I haven't seen anything in the treaty that suggests that will happen.  Care to quote it?  Second, do you really think a 2/3 majority of the Senate will ratify a treaty that implements gun control nationwide?  That's not just a majority, but a 2/3 majority that's required to ratify a treaty.  Be honest.  Third, given the direction of recent SCOTUS cases, would such a treaty survive Constitutional muster? 

I'm not saying this isn't something to follow and keep an eye on.  But let's not start spreading a much of misinformation about a treaty trumping our Constitution due to the Supremacy clause.  We're better off educating the populace, not trying to fill them with ignorance and misinformation to instill a sense of fear.

Offline JimThornTX

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Re: After Obama win, U.S. backs new U.N. arms treaty talks
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2012, 01:49:23 PM »
I don't know about you but I will fight any type of bill, law, UN treaty, ANYTHING that even remotely has to do with firearms regulations. Especially coming from the UN. You obviously just don't get it. The USA is the last beacon of Freedom in the world. The rest of the world (read: the United Nations) wants EVERY country disarmed. In their mind, this will end gun violence. You really think the puppets in DC would take the time to fully read the UN treaty and consult with Constitutional lawyers and International Law lawyers before voting? I sincerely doubt it. Did the puppets in DC take the time to read the Obamacare bill before they passed it? No, they didn't. If you want to keep your 2nd Amendment rights, you had better start learning to fight for them and learn to read between the lines. What could be more worse for American gun owners than a treaty that is about guns that is coming from the uber-Liberal anti-gun United Nations? Are you really that naive?
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Offline bozwell

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Re: After Obama win, U.S. backs new U.N. arms treaty talks
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2012, 02:28:04 PM »
If you call looking to understand Constitutional law, reading legislation rather than blindly fearing it, and trying to be informed on the issues rather than ignorant and afraid of them, perhaps I'm naive.  It's easy to be afraid of something when you don't know what it will do, how it will apply, and you only fear the worst.  Sort of like a child being afraid of the unknown, when it's dark and they can't see.  It's better to educate yourself about what something is and how it affect you, rather than just sitting in the dark and proclaiming it's evil.  Again, I'm not saying this treaty is a good thing.  I'm just saying that we don't know how bad it is, or whether it will even affect individual firearm ownership/purchases in the United States.  Foaming at the mouth over it, before you even understand the scope and extent of its effects, is just silly.

Also, if you think politicians don't have constitutional lawyers on staff and consult with these people before enacting legislation, you're the one that's being naive.  The difference is that educated lawyers can disagree as to whether a particular act is constitutional or not (as evidenced by 5-4 SCOTUS votes).  Layman just love to look at a Constitutional issue and proclaim oh that's obviously constitutional or obviously unconstitutional, when they've only read the plain text of the Constitution (if that) and know nothing about the subject of Constitutional law.  You can't ask for better evidence than that nonsense distorting our the Supremacy clause and suggesting that treaties trump the plain text of our Constitution.

Offline Faeruss7

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Re: After Obama win, U.S. backs new U.N. arms treaty talks
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2012, 03:20:36 PM »
     The U.S. Constitution isn't complex or hard to understand; it was written so farmers of that era could comprehend it. Sadly, most of those farmers understood it far better than the current breed of constitutional lawyers, who mostly seek to undermine it. I don't need someone (regardless of their pedigree) to tell me what the clearly-written U.S. Constitution means, and I will resist anyone who attempts to subvert it.
"It does not take a majority to prevail. But rather, an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men."
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Offline bozwell

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Re: After Obama win, U.S. backs new U.N. arms treaty talks
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2012, 03:35:54 PM »
The plain text of the document is simple.  Its application to a complex set of facts is not.  Even a cursory study of Constitutional law precedent would show numerous cases where the proper result is unclear and legitimate arguments exist on both sides of the issue.  What many people call "clear" or "obvious" is simply the interpretation that they agree with, and oftentimes they agree with it because it produces the result they want.

In any event, until the particulars of this treaty are worked out and it's ratified (if that ever happens), it's premature to get into a debate on the treaty's constitutionality.

Offline armoredman

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Re: After Obama win, U.S. backs new U.N. arms treaty talks
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2012, 04:38:12 PM »
Quote
In any event, until the particulars of this treaty are worked out and it's ratified (if that ever happens), it's premature to get into a debate on the treaty's constitutionality.
Absolutely true. Lets see what happens when they get to that point, and then we can debate how to stop it. In the meantime, keep supporting your local and national firearms rights groups that you like, and keep fighting the good fight for the RKBA!