What to buy for CCW/IDPA?

[DenStinett]

.......but a light competition trigger has no business on a carry gun IMHO.

I couldn?t agree with you more here
But, that doesn?t mean you still can?t have one Lower with a Trigger with some form of compromise in Pull Weight
I guess that?s why I feel the Witness, with its ?Conversion / Convertible? Platform, is a good base to start

Wait?..An ?Adjustable Trigger Pull Weight?
There you go Schmeky, a project for ya

[Skookum]

What is the lower threshold of what is deemed a safe carry trigger pull weight ? DA and SA?  According to the pre-B armorer's manual, the designer trigger pulls for the 75 are <14 lb and <5.5 lb for DA and SA, respectively.  Since the firing pin block was added, I assume these upper thresholds have gone up.

Also, what's the upper threshhold of pull weights for a competition pistol?

[DenStinett]

Great Point Skookum......
I guess that's what I was going for
There must be some compromise

[motosapiens]

What is the lower threshold of what is deemed a safe carry trigger pull weight ? DA and SA?  According to the pre-B armorer's manual, the designer trigger pulls for the 75 are <14 lb and <5.5 lb for DA and SA, respectively.  Since the firing pin block was added, I assume these upper thresholds have gone up.

Also, what's the upper threshhold of pull weights for a competition pistol?

depends on your own personal preferences I think. da pull is not really relevant, as long as the springs are strong enough to light off all primers all the time.  conventional wisdom for S/A is that around 4 lbs is the lowest most people recommend carrying.

Trigger pull isn't really that big an issue to me tho, since even a lightened d/a pull is heavy enough that you won't have any nerve-induced AD's when staring at a bad guy. I prefer separate guns because carry sights take longer for me to find and focus on, and target sights are big and have sharp corners. Also springs are set up in my race gun to be reliable with my competition ammo, and to minimize the sights bouncing around as the slide slams forward. In a carry gun i'm more concerned with feeding reliability even when the gun hasn't been shot recently, so i tend to use a little stronger recoil spring.

Lastly, I really need a backup gun to compete seriously anyway. I don't want to drive all the way st george and have a gun failure that leaves me stranded, so having a carry gun based on the same platform as my race gun gives me a source of spare parts or a complete gun if necessary if something goes wrong.

[Skookum]

There must be some compromise

Exactly, Den.  The trigger pulls on my 75 C are too high for carry or range, and are in need of refinement.  I think the 4-lb threshhold for carry motosapiens refers to comes from Ayoob.  However, I think Cooper recommended 3 lb.  Ayoob's advice tends to be based on legal risk aversion, while Cooper's advice is based on performance.  Take Ayoob's advice further and one would simply opt not to carry at all.  In fact, Ayoob is an advocate of the NY Glock triggers, which jack the pull up from the stock 5.5 lb to about 12 lb, thus making an inherently unsafe pistol less safe in a big city, because it's hard to hit the broad side of a barn with a double-digit trigger pull.  Last year's Empire State Building shooting illustrated this when two NYC cops took down a killer on the street with 16 shots.  The result ? one dead killer and nine wounded bystanders.

Cajun Gun Works describes the CZ trigger job that comes as part of their Defensive Carry Package as follows: "SA goes from creepy & rough to an ice crisp and safe 3.0 - 3.6 lbs, based on the customers input.  DA drops from a grinding & heavy 16+ lbs down to a butter smooth 7.0 - 8.5 lbs, again being based on the customers input & usage."  I doubt that CGW is in business to put unsafe CZs into the hands of the CC community.

I'm not a competitive shooter, nor do I have plans to be one.  But, for combat competition, I would think trigger pulls at the lower threshhold for safe carry would be perfect.  For bullseye competition I've heard of very light trigger pulls which would be unsafe for carry.

[Bulldawg165]

I'm gonna play devil's advocate a bit here:  With proper training I don't think there is such a thing as "too light of a trigger."  Don't put your finger inside the trigger guard until you're ready to shoot.  Period.  Doing this will avoid accidental/negligent discharges without hindering accuracy under pressure due to a heavy trigger pull.  Plus, a heavier trigger pull doesn't guarantee the absence of an AD/ND if you don't know how to keep your finger off the trigger.

[JonNC]

I agree with Bulldawg165.

My Shadow comes in @ 3-3.5# SA and 7-7.5 DA, or thereabouts.
My P-01 (ccw) comes in @ 3.5-4# SA and 7.75-8.25 DA, or thereabouts.
I'll be dropping in a CGW reduced power trigger return spring (should drop half a pound off of both SA/DA) and give the 11.5# hammer spring a try (P-01 currently has the 13#).

If my P-01 would reliably light off primers with an 8.5# hammer spring (about a 4-5# DA), I would carry it all day with no worries.

[Skookum]

With proper training I don't think there is such a thing as "too light of a trigger."

I agree, but Jeff Cooper's Four Rules are flawed.  His first two, which deal with general gun handling are fine:

1. All guns are always loaded.
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.

His next two rules should be switched:

3. Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target.
4. Identify your target, and what is behind it.

One has no business bringing sights onto an unidentified target with an unassessed background.

You would modify Cooper's #3 to say "Keep your finger off the trigger till you are ready to shoot."  My dad took care of the problem by adding a fifth rule:

5. Do not unsafe the gun until ready to shoot.

Where most folks get into trouble is when covering a bad guy or, for police, a suspect with trigger on the finger and safety off, and under the stress the trigger is pulled unintentionally.  If a gun goes off, intentionally or unintentionally, after all 5 rules of safety are followed it should be a good shot.  If it is a bad shot the gun shouldn't have been in the position and condition it was in.  Another way of looking at it is there is no such thing as an unintentional shot if all 5 rules are followed.

Note that people are routinely trained to violate the 5 rules.  Police are equipped with inherently unsafe pistols with dysfunctional safeties (Glock).  Police are trained to place their finger on the trigger before being ready to shoot.  I've read about police staging their triggers while covering a target.  This tells me they are applying pressure before being ready to shoot.  I believe it was NYC that asked Glock to make a 2-stage NY trigger that allows a lighter trigger pull to unsafe the gun, which fosters placing finger on trigger before being ready to shoot.  Ayoob's advocacy of the NY trigger is an endorsement of placing one's finger on the trigger before being ready to shoot.

In NYC I wouldn't do anything to make a cop pull his Glock.  Nor would I want to be in the vicinity of anyone who does so.

As to minimum trigger pull, NRA bullseye competition rules specify no less than 2.5 lb for a 9mm pistol.  A practical lower bound is the weight of your loaded pistol, actually somewhat higher than that, so if the pistol gets dropped with one's finger in the trigger guard it won't go off.  My 75 C weighs a bit less than 2.5 lb with 15 rounds.  Thus, a CGW's SA trigger of 3.0 to 3.6 lb sounds safe to carry.

[Bulldawg165]

I don't know if a trigger pull higher than the weight of your gun will prevent an AD/ND if you drop it with your finger in the trigger guard because your finger will exert more pressure on the trigger than just the weight of the gun (momentum = mass * VELOCITY).  If you drop your gun you should just let it fall, not try to catch it.

Also, I don't think glocks, or any other gun for that matter, are unsafe just because they lack an external safety.  IMO the most important safety is between your ears and no external device can compensate when that safety fails.

I agree with the remainder of your post though.

[Skookum]

I don't know if a trigger pull higher than the weight of your gun will prevent an AD/ND if you drop it with your finger in the trigger guard because your finger will exert more pressure on the trigger than just the weight of the gun (momentum = mass * VELOCITY).

If the pull is high enough it will.  The distance a hangun can fall is short, because their is not much room within a trigger guard.  You'd want the pull weight to be somewhat above the handgun weight to compensate for a small acceleration over that short distance; also to compensate for a reflexive upward pull of your hand, which would increase the force somewhat above the weight of the handgun.  Exactly how much above the handgun's weight that should be, I don't know.  Perhaps a resident physicist can do the calculation?

If you drop your gun you should just let it fall, not try to catch it.

Probably insufficient time to make that decision if anyone found themselves in that unfortunate situation.  Personally, I'd hate to scuff my dual tone finish.

Also, I don't think glocks, or any other gun for that matter, are unsafe just because they lack an external safety.  IMO the most important safety is between your ears and no external device can compensate when that safety fails.

The record says otherwise.  The NY and NY2 triggers came about, because of the high ND rate with Glocks, and they successfully lowered that rate.  The only effective safeties are an external one or a handgun-crippling long and tough trigger pull.  Fortunately, the CZ 75 was designed so we have a choice.

It's true your version of Cooper's 4 Rules would work, but 1) that's not what most folks are taught (in fact, many are taught to specifically violate your version of Rule 3 (which should be Rule 4), and 2) guns are designed to have one's finger on the trigger, so one can't be surprised to see fingers going there.

[Bulldawg165]

Also, I don't think glocks, or any other gun for that matter, are unsafe just because they lack an external safety.  IMO the most important safety is between your ears and no external device can compensate when that safety fails.

The record says otherwise.  The NY and NY2 triggers came about, because of the high ND rate with Glocks, and they successfully lowered that rate.  The only effective safeties are an external one or a handgun-crippling long and tough trigger pull.  Fortunately, the CZ 75 was designed so we have a choice.

It's true your version of Cooper's 4 Rules would work, but 1) that's not what most folks are taught (in fact, many are taught to specifically violate your version of Rule 3 (which should be Rule 4), and 2) guns are designed to have one's finger on the trigger, so one can't be surprised to see fingers going there.

This wasn't an issue with glocks, though.  It was an issue with training.  The guns weren't failing so I'm more inclined to throw that type of training under the bus than I am the gun.  Nobody in my eyes, not even a cop, has the right to point their gun at someone with their finger inside the trigger guard until that person has, through their actions, given them the legal right to shoot.  If you don't have the right to shoot someone then you don't have the right to RISK shooting them either.  Acting otherwise is just plain irresponsible in my book.

[bozwell]

3. Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target.
4. Identify your target, and what is behind it.

Just a minor point, but his rules aren't in some sort of chronological order.  He doesn't mean that you should put your sights on your target BEFORE you identify your target.  He's saying think before you acquire a target, and that includes thinking about what's behind the target, what's around the target, what (or who) might get in the way of your shots, and so on. 

[Skookum]

But, swapping the order of Cooper's 3 and 4 put them in a chronological order that improves them.

[Skookum]

This wasn't an issue with glocks, though.  It was an issue with training.  The guns weren't failing so I'm more inclined to throw that type of training under the bus than I am the gun.

It was an issue with Glocks.  The NY triggers were designed specifically for Glocks, because the NYPD was having a high ND rate with Glocks.  Safeties aren't added to guns for the sake of the guns.  Guns don't drop themselves.  A gun doesn't reach out and place a user's finger on its trigger when it's not supposed to be there.  Safeties exist because designers understand that people are fallible.  Arguing that a gun without an external safety is safe is like arguing a car without seatbelts and airbags is safe.  After all, a car isn't supposed to be crashed.

Nobody in my eyes, not even a cop, has the right to point their gun at someone with their finger inside the trigger guard until that person has, through their actions, given them the legal right to shoot.  If you don't have the right to shoot someone then you don't have the right to RISK shooting them either.  Acting otherwise is just plain irresponsible in my book.

I wholeheartedly agree.  Howver, as I pointed out, many, especially police, are taught otherwise.  I believe I read somewhere (John Lott?) that there are considerably more bad police shootings each year than bad shootings by CC permitees.  I'm guessing the number of CC permitees far exceeds the number of police officers.

[Bulldawg165]

It was an issue with Glocks.  The NY triggers were designed specifically for Glocks, because the NYPD was having a high ND rate with Glocks.  Safeties aren't added to guns for the sake of the guns.  Guns don't drop themselves.  A gun doesn't reach out and place a user's finger on its trigger when it's not supposed to be there.  Safeties exist because designers understand that people are fallible.  Arguing that a gun without an external safety is safe is like arguing a car without seatbelts and airbags is safe.  After all, a car isn't supposed to be crashed.

The NYPD was having issues because of irresponsible training.  I don't care if I've only been shooting for roughly two years, I'm calling bogus on any "training" that teaches you to leave your finger on the trigger when pointing your gun at a presumed innocent citizen.  If that makes me a whippersnapper then so be it.  Plenty of other departments use glocks without issue.  Not trying to be a glock fan boy (I actually sold my glock 19 to fund my CZ PCR ) but I have no issues with a gun without a safety.  In fact, that's a requirement for a carry gun for me.  I love the simple deployment mechanism of "point and shoot" without anything else getting in the way.

I wholeheartedly agree.  However, as I pointed out, many, especially police, are taught otherwise.  I believe I read somewhere (John Lott?) that there are considerably more bad police shootings each year than bad shootings by CC permitees.  I'm guessing the number of CC permitees far exceeds the number of police officers.

I don't doubt that statistic at all.  But let me ask a question.  I've never really fired a gun with an actual safety so I fully admit that I may be showing my ignorance here, but how would an external safety prevent the NYPD accidental/negligent shootings?  Say a 1911 with a safety and a light SA trigger, for instance.  I would think that you would flip the safety off as either part of your draw or part of your presentation so that when you have your sights on target the safety is already disengaged.  How then could it help prevent an AD/ND if your finger is on the trigger?