Author Topic: New to handguns and CZs  (Read 3744 times)

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Offline IDescribe

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Re: New to handguns and CZs
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2013, 01:32:59 PM »
Did you know that 98.7% of all posts quoting percentages are made up? ;D

As far as my methodology -- I used a recoil calculator that uses SAAMI's formula for calculating recoil.  I compared factory SD and target rounds from different manufacturers.  I compared some initial results to known results to make sure I wasn't producing anything anomalous.  I did CHOOSE 180 grain for .40 and 230 grain for .45, and I did so specifically because that's what those calibers were built around.  Then I ran comparisons of comparable factory loads in those bullet weights, and when I say "comparable", I mean from the same product line from the same manufacturer.  I also ran comparisons from the data in reloading manuals using those two weight bullets with bullets of the same type at velocities as close as possible to the velocities that the caliber was built for.  The "made up" percentages you see in that post of mine you quoted are averages of my results, and not only are they averages, but they are averages rounded to the nearest five percent.  --Oh my God!  He admits it!--  I didn't go too specific on results or methodology in the initial post because 1) it would have been little help to the OP, and 2) the reality is that a claim that .40 was 32.3% stronger in recoil than the .45 in a 2.5 pound 1911 invites more criticism than a nice rounded 30%, and 3) there's always some guy who is going to come along after the fact and try to disprove an entire claim with one flaw in methodology, even though the flaw doesn't directly impact the result or change the result in significant way. "You didn't take into account lot-to-lot inconsistency in powders!"  I find that being general often gives the jerks less to work with.  Of course, being general sometimes leaves you looking like you made things up or are guessing wildly, giving people who happen along with their preconceived notions an easy path to dismiss you.  And for the record, that proverbial "guy" who comes along and dismisses for a minor flaw in methodology -- that's not supposed to refer to you.  You dismissed on an assumption of dishonesty.

Were you aware that the majority of posts in gun forums from people regarding commonly held truths about things like felt recoil, bore-axis, glass-rod-like 1911 triggers, Glock grip angles, etc. are just people misrepresenting other people's misrepresentations of other people's misrepresentations of other people's experiences?  You can tell because there is no way millions of shooters can experience something independently and come to describe those experiences with the exact same words.  It's quite human, of course, very much has to do with how we learn, and there's no way around it, but it does lead to myths.


Anyway, I've shot 40's in polymer and all steel, and 45acp's in both as well.
So you haven't tested .40 against .45 side by side in the same platform.  Maybe you should.


Think about it. The 40 is traveline quite a bit faster than the 45 and not much less in weight.
I don't have to "think about it".  I've done the math.  And I've done the practical application, which supports the math.


And for the record, I'm not sure how fast YOU think these bullets travel, but the .45 was designed around a 230 grain bullet travelling at  850 feet per second while the .40 was designed for the FBI requirement of a 180 grain bullet at 900-1000 feet per second, for which I CHOSE 950 feet per second for the calculations based on published reloading data.  And, for the record, common factory loads do reflect those velocities.   So your "quite a bit faster" .40 is going 12% faster than the .45, while 230 grains is 28% more than 180.  Not much less in weight?  It's almost like you started with a pre-conceived notion that .40 recoils harder than .45 then made something up that to justify the claim.

Offline IDescribe

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Re: New to handguns and CZs
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2013, 01:58:52 PM »
I overstated something in the previous post, and rather than edit the post, I'm going to leave it and correct myself here.

I do NOT believe that "the majority of posts in gun forums from people regarding commonly held truths about things like felt recoil, bore-axis, glass-rod-like 1911 triggers, Glock grip angles, etc." are people simply repeating what other people have said.  That definitely happens and happens often, but what I actually believe is that the majority of people take what other people have said on those common topics of discussion and carry that into their own personal, practical experiences with various firearms, then those notions affect their experience with those firearms, or in the after-the-fact situation, those notions affect their memories of their experiences with those firearms. 

It's unfair to suggest that the "majority" are simply parroting what others have said with no experience of their own.  That is certainly not the case.

Offline m3scott

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Re: New to handguns and CZs
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2013, 03:05:29 PM »
Quote
I have shot 9mm, .357 mag, 41 mag and 45acp.

My first major caliber handgun was a .357 Python, my second was a compact Firestar in .40.  The Firestar didn't kick nearly as hard as the Python did, so I wouldn't worry about getting the .40.  You will have no problem with the recoil.  The .40 is a fun round to shoot.  My 11 year old son shot my .40 plenty.  He preferred it to my 9mm in the 75B, but I think that is because it had more recoil.  It's just fun. 
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Offline Quakertown

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Re: New to handguns and CZs
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2013, 03:57:41 PM »
Holy sh** Nancy, you sure don't like to be questioned on your beliefs, do you? You must be a real joy for that significant other to live with. Take a Midol or two.
As for my guns used in comparison, they were Glock 22 vs Glock 21 and CZ40B vs 1911, so there goes that theory for you, eh? Feel stupid? cause you look stupid.  Your velocities were skewed to support your position as well, as most published data indicated the 40s&w to be upwards of 1050fps, NOT 950. Also, the original bullet designed for the 45acp was 200gr at 900fps, NOT 230 at 850. That was at request of the Army who wanted a real "manstopper". So, 1050 minus 850 is 200fps slower..like I said..QUITE A BIT SLOWER.
Some ppl feel the need to throw all kinds of charts/data/bs to bolster their position then call other views of dissent as "jerks". I didn't base my position on "preconceived notions", but on my experiences and others that I shoot with at the range. Game/SET/MATCH.

Offline FutureSailor

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Re: New to handguns and CZs
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2013, 04:35:46 PM »
Gentlemen, you have all been rather helpful, please dont just go into mindless bickering.

Offline IDescribe

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Re: New to handguns and CZs
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2013, 05:09:16 PM »
As for my guns used in comparison, they were Glock 22 vs Glock 21 and CZ40B vs 1911, so there goes that theory for you, eh?
You didn't initially claim to have shot them side by side at the same shooting session, and you still haven't, so no, my theory is still in tact.  Will you claim that it was at the same session for the purpose of comparison of the two calibers the third time around?  I wonder.

Most published data indicated the 40s&w to be upwards of 1050fps, NOT 950.
Not so much.  1050 is not most published data for 180 grain.  155, 165 -- sure, but not 180.   Buffalo Bore and DoubleTap are upwards of 1050 with 180 grain bullets.  The Major  manufacturers with 180 SD bullets are in the 950 to 1010 range.  But even if I gave you that it's 1050, that's still not as big a difference in velocity as the 180 to 230 grain weight difference, yet you describe the velocity difference as significant and the weight difference as negligible.

Your velocities were skewed to support your position as well
There you go again with accusing me of misrepresenting something.  I chose the velocities before running the numbers and never changed them.  FBI called for 900-1000 with a 180 grains.  I chose the half-way point so as NOT to skew the velocities one way or another.  And you are, of course, correct on the .45 being built with a 200 grain bullet, which was quickly switched to 230 grain somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 years ago, so I'm still backing my choice, which by the way has a lower velocity and by your estimate would be skewed AGAINST my premise, not in favor of it.  If I wanted to skew in my favor, I would have gone with 200 grain +P .45's that actually are at velocities of 1050 and ask you to explain how the lighter round at the same velocity has more recoil just by virtue of .40S&W being printed on the box.  Of course, I'm trying not to use the exception to misrepresent the common, so I didn't.

You must be a real joy for that significant other to live with.
Sorry, I didn't realize you were looking for a date.   :-*

Offline IDescribe

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Re: New to handguns and CZs
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2013, 05:10:44 PM »
Will do, Sailorman.  I'll be done with it.  Good luck with the new firearm.   ;)

Offline FutureSailor

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Re: New to handguns and CZs
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2013, 06:03:49 PM »
Will do, Sailorman.  I'll be done with it.  Good luck with the new firearm.   ;)

Thanks dude, it was truly interesting to read the math behind the recoil.

Offline JimThornTX

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Re: New to handguns and CZs
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2013, 11:18:46 PM »
Gentlemen, you have all been rather helpful, please dont just go into mindless bickering.

http://youtu.be/FONN-0uoTHI
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Offline FutureSailor

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Re: New to handguns and CZs
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2013, 02:26:49 AM »
Gentlemen, you have all been rather helpful, please dont just go into mindless bickering.

http://youtu.be/FONN-0uoTHI

Best comment in the thread right here.