Do you draw your DA/SA pistol with hammer down or cocked and locked?

[Canuck44]

You obviously have not spent much time in the sport.  Aside from the hammer/striker issue there are others that tend to favour the polymer guns.  Weight is one.  Lighter guns can, for most, be drawn faster than heavier guns.  Transitions from one target to another also, for most, can be done faster by lighter guns.  Becaus e IDPA for the most part has fewer shooting positions than say IPSC/USPSA transition times between targets play a larger role in IDPA.  Why?  IDPA limits the amount of movement between shooting positions and total movement on a stage and the stages are shorter.

I think you're completely wrong. If striker-fired pistols dominate ssp, it's because very few good shooters bother shooting IDPA. The same guys that are at the top of USPSA would be at the top of IDPA using the same guns if they thought it was worth competing in that venue.

Bob Vogel shoots a Glock and wins.  Try again. 

Bob

[himurax13]

You obviously have not spent much time in the sport.  Aside from the hammer/striker issue there are others that tend to favour the polymer guns.  Weight is one.  Lighter guns can, for most, be drawn faster than heavier guns.  Transitions from one target to another also, for most, can be done faster by lighter guns.  Becaus e IDPA for the most part has fewer shooting positions than say IPSC/USPSA transition times between targets play a larger role in IDPA.  Why?  IDPA limits the amount of movement between shooting positions and total movement on a stage and the stages are shorter.

I think you're completely wrong. If striker-fired pistols dominate ssp, it's because very few good shooters bother shooting IDPA. The same guys that are at the top of USPSA would be at the top of IDPA using the same guns if they thought it was worth competing in that venue.

And your basis for this are where exactly?

[Canuck44]

You obviously have not spent much time in the sport.  Aside from the hammer/striker issue there are others that tend to favour the polymer guns.  Weight is one.  Lighter guns can, for most, be drawn faster than heavier guns.  Transitions from one target to another also, for most, can be done faster by lighter guns.  Becaus e IDPA for the most part has fewer shooting positions than say IPSC/USPSA transition times between targets play a larger role in IDPA.  Why?  IDPA limits the amount of movement between shooting positions and total movement on a stage and the stages are shorter.

I think you're completely wrong. If striker-fired pistols dominate ssp, it's because very few good shooters bother shooting IDPA. The same guys that are at the top of USPSA would be at the top of IDPA using the same guns if they thought it was worth competing in that venue.

Bob Vogel shoots a Glock and wins.  Try again. 

Bob

Bob Vogel would win with any pistol he cared to use.

Ben Stoeger made IDPA Master and has won plenty of top level IDPA matches with a Beretta 92.  And I'm going to bet that he would dominate at the IDPA nationals with any DA/SA pistol he cared to bring.

Try again

He would lose like others do to Bob Vogel by minutes.

You are right on Bob Vogel but the most of the shooters shooting SSP Division shoot either the Glock 34 or the M&P Pro.  I cannot recall a DA/SA pistol being carried by the winner of SSP Division in at least nine years.  Vogel shoots a Glock.

We all know it is the archer not the arrow but IDPA does favour the lighter guns for most of the mortals who shoot the sport.  The shooting robots can use anything and win but even they in the main choose either of the two mentioned pistols consistently and they do it for a reason. 

The CZ Shadow is gaining in popularity in USPSA Production I understand.  That said from speaking to friends who compete regularly in USPSA they say you see way more striker fired guns in USPSA Production than you do in IPSC Production.  The 5# trigger rule plays a part in the choice of pistols.  The fact the SP-01 Shadow wins consistently in IPSC Production also plays a part.  The exception being Vogel's win in Greece with a Glock 17 a couple of years ago.

Personally I prefer the CZ DA/SA for IPSC and when I shoot pistol in IDPA I go with the M&P Pro.  I do draw the lighter gun faster and it easier for me to transition from one target to another with the lighter gun.  The CZ is more accurate in my hands than my M&P as well making the B Zone plates much easier to hit at distance.  Just me, you may be different.

Take Care


Bob

 

[andrewtac]

I will say I an very new to the sport.  So I speak from minimal experience, about a year and a half.  Doing Steve Anderson drills I am at the same speed if not faster than I was with my 34; after about 1-2 weeks.  I don't think I could draw any faster with a lighter gun.  I would think that for most of us mortals 0.5-0.6 draw times is a function more of how fast we can move, without anything in my hand I don't see it much faster.  And besides any weight we add on the gun will help with keeping the recoil down.  That was the primary reason I switched.  Shooting the same rounds in an sp01 as my 34 I could see a difference, I had no idea of the CZ brand when I did this, no preconceived notions, someone handed my their sp01 and I tried it.  In addition, after seeing open and limited guys with large heavy guns drawing and transitioning faster than those with plastic guns I don't see the lighter gun having an advantage.  I looked at the 2014 uspsa results at least two names I recognized in the top 5 were hammer fired guns, didn't recognize the other three names and didn't look them up.  I think polymer guns dominate the sport simply because they dominate the US market.  They are popular for many reasons, of which many have littleto do with their inherent ability to perform in practical shooting.  Not that they can't be used for that, just that is not what makes them popular.  If most folks own plastic guns, most folks shoot plastic guns.  I have numerous glocks and I had a ton of loyalty.  Finally, I'd sat for the top dudes it is the Indian and not the arrow.

[1SOW]

Andrew,  I agree.

My agreement means little,  but I have shot with a few top guys that can pick up most anything that goes bang and impress the audience.
Liking, trusting and being comfortable with the pistol are the issues after knowing 'how' to shoot. 

[Canuck44]

andrewtac polymer guns are as popular up here as they are in the US.  You see the polymer guns in IDPA but not in IPSC.  I don't know how much experience you have shooting IDPA, if any, but the two sports (USPSA/IIDPA are completely different.  The closest they come is Production/SSP divisions as far as equipment is concerned.  IPSC Production is not as close to SSP Division as USPSA Production is. Aside from the rules there is a difference I think in approach.  The two sports are shot differently and require different skill sets to be successful.  The very best shooters in both sports can and do cross over.  A good number in both sports don`t.  Both sports appeal to folks differently that is why both are successful.

Have you timed your draws?  Have you timed them using a cover garment vs a dropped and offset holster.  If you haven't you are simply guessing.  I have and we have timed others.   You might want to do so if you haven't.  Too, ignore the shooting robots.  Unless you are a Master Class shooter what they do is not relevant to what you do or are capable of doing.  It just isn't practice or determination that sets outstanding shooters from the rest of us.  What some do is a gift few of us have.  That is why they are the exception.

Master Class shooters regularly shoot the three stages of the  IDPA Classifer as fast as I manage to shoot Stage 3 of the same Classifier.  That would be true of about 80% of the IDPA membership.  Most of us classify Sharpshooter or Marksman.  If you think the Master Class shooter`s ability to draw a polymer gun or steel gun is significant to what you are going to achieve than my hat is off to you.  Try timing your draws and work on running averages.  I do believe the draw is over rated in both sports but for the average shooter it might be where they can pick up some time by using equipment that benefits their skill sets.  A very good friend of mine who provides practical pistol training for both IDPA and USPSA has often told me he beats my times not by shooting but by doing a lot of things better than I while running a stage when he is not shooting.

Good luck in your shooting pursuits, I wish you well.

Take Care

Bob



 

[andrewtac]

I have shot Idpa, but gave up on it as the rules are different enough that I felt like one would effect the other; I don't have enough spare time to do both.  I do time my draws, that was where I got the number.  I use a DOH, and did for both the glock and the CZ.  I think the draw does have some effect on performance, but so does reloads, follow up shots etc.  I thought you were making a case for a lighter gun in the draw and transitioning, for those items I am the same if not  better with the heavier gun.  Probably because I got better with practice.  The weight did  not slow me down.  The da pull did give me some trouble, and still does a little; but it is trainable and I have improved signficantly over a couple weeks.  Your other advantage was no da pull, well I would say if the draw doesn't really matter neither will the tenth of second longer in the first shot matter compared to the total time and shots.  I feel better with the CZ affter being a glock shooter for a while, I still loose to glock shooters.  Not sure if either one has a distinct advantage.

[Canuck44]

Andrew you are on the right track.  A lot of shooters make the same decision you did...both ways.  No I am not making a case for the lighter gun for both sports.  USPSA and IPSC are shot differently than IDPA.  Your point about polymer guns being popular in the US cannot be dismissed and I did not mean to do so. 

I do think the rules do dictate to a great extent what we use if we treat the games as true competition rather than some training fantasy.  You initially chose a G 34 for USPSA Production.  Great pistol but not allowed in IPSC Production by rule.  The SP-01 is an excellent pistol and will serve you well BUT so would have the Glock 34.  I don`t shoot Glocks as I find the grip angle and the grip itself difficult to deal with and is why I chose the M&P platform for IDPA.  Just different strikes for different folks. 

Good luck shooting USPSA. 

Take Care

Bob

[motosapiens]

Bob Vogel shoots a Glock and wins.  Try again. 

And he wins at uspsa too. He is about the only real national class shooter that participates in IDPA, and while he is in the mix in uspsa, he absolutely dominates IDPA. Why is that? Because a glock is better suited to IDPA? No, because few shooters of that level participate.

Either gun can be successful in either sport. It's all about the shooter.