Author Topic: CZ involved in US MIL pistol trials ?  (Read 4542 times)

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jh-williams

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CZ involved in US MIL pistol trials ?
« on: January 22, 2006, 07:33:18 PM »

   Does anyone know if the SP-01 has been submitted to the
US Pistol trials for 665,000 replacement units ?

  I believe the deadline for submission is in March of this year.

  I have heard the .40 SW is desired, but not certain.

  A 75B or BD in .40 would appear to me to be the best cost and quality combination for the US Military, or a SP-01 in .40.

  It would be a big upgrade from  the Beretta 92 series.

Offline gldP01

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CZ involved in US MIL pistol trials ?
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2006, 03:28:32 PM »
The .40 has become widely accepted as a law enforcement autopistol round.

Is the .40 a NATO (or whatever rules war/treaty/political) approved round?  I don't know much about these things, but it seems if we went with an "unapproved" round, I know a whole bunch of Marines that would push for the .45 (in a 1911 platform).

My guess is the accessory rail would be a plus.

I would definately love to see the SP-01 platform spray .40 or .45 lead.


jh-williams

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CZ involved in US MIL pistol trials ?
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2006, 08:59:47 PM »

 Since I am not on the inside of Military Procurement,
it is hard to know with any certainty if the .40SW is being processed through the Nato Standardization hierarchy.

 Looking back at the 9MM, as the end choice for our troops, with the Sig 226 and Beretta 92F chosen as the
approved sidearms, you cannot help but wonder if the trials are politically influenced, or was an economic reality for the Pentagon.

Here we are again, after 15 years or so, not satisfied with the present sidearm firepower. There are advocates of  " 20 in the mag" , and there are advocates of "12 in the mag" with a .40 or .45.
Both have their legitimate followers, and has been debated since the  advent of the 1911 .

 Since it is the LIFE of the man carrying the weapon, not some engineer's theory, I believe most of our troops would prefer the .40, or .45. Either will stop a man with  more authority than the venerable 9mm.

 Another argument that has prevailed in the Pentagon,
has been the "Fast-Light Principle" , simply strike quickly, overwhelm, and gain a psychological edge.
 That denotes lighter weapons, translating into poly
sidearm . Admittedly, the Socom 23 HK has been superb by most evaluations in a .45, but complaints have  surfaced resulting from the sheer bulk of the weapon, especially with a suppressor.

  For the  Marine in the field, if reliability is the peer
of performance, not packing weight, the SP-01 would be my weapon of choice, or the 75B in .40. We will wait and see what parameters the Procurement Office
has declared. I will endeavor to locate the bidding document, and post it.

 As to what preponderance of weight the actual caliber is controlled by NATO specs, I am not sure.

  Since America established NATO, surely we can establish a new standard for hard-hitting ammo(40) with Al-Queda's name attached to it.


Offline angus hobdell

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CZ involved in US MIL pistol trials ?
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2006, 11:06:19 PM »
I took a look and spoke with some of the guys "involved" with the trial and it seemed very much to me like the procurment had been written for the H&K. Difficult to beat that without producting a new gun.
Angus Duhhhh!

jh-williams

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CZ involved in US MIL pistol trials ?
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2006, 12:53:47 AM »
Thanks Angus for the information. i was under the impression the trials would not begin until March of 2006, and submissions were received for eval until then.

Here is a  General Specification Sheet on the "JCP".


Solicitation number : H92222-05-R-0017
Title : 10 -- Joint Combat Pistol (JCP) System

General Information

Document Type: Presolicitation Notice
Solicitation Number: H92222-05-R-0017
Posted Date: Aug 26, 2005
Original Response Date: Nov 29, 2005
Current Response Date: Nov 29, 2005
Original Archive Date: Oct 14, 2005
Current Archive Date: Oct 14, 2005
Classification Code: 10 -- Weapons
Naics Code: 332994 -- Small Arms Manufacturing

Contracting Office AddressOther Defense Agencies, U.S. Special Operations Command, Headquarters Procurement Division, 7701 Tampa Point Blvd, MacDill AFB, FL, 33621-5323

Description

The USSOCOM intends to issue a solicitation to obtain commercially available non-developmental item (NDI) Joint Combat Pistol (JCP) system, Caliber .45 (ACP). The Program will use full and open competition to fulfill the JCP requirement.
The JCP will be delivered in accordance with specification entitled "Performance Specification Joint Combat Pistol" to be provided with issuance of the solicitation.
Two configurations of the pistol will be required.
One configuration will have no external safety and the other configuration will have an external safety.
The Combat Pistol System consists of: a Caliber .45 pistol and its ancillary equipment including: Magazines (standard and high-capacity); Suppressor Attachment Kit for operation of the pistol with and without sound suppressor; Holster; Magazine Holder (standard and high-capacity); Cleaning Kit; and Operator's Manual.
The contract type will be an Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity (IDIQ) issuing Firm-Fixed Price (FFP) delivery orders. The contract period of performance shall be Five (5)years with an option to extend for an additional Five (5) years.
The Minimum Quantity is 24 each Engineering Test Units (ETU's), 12 each with external manual safety and 12 each without external manual safety. The estimated Maximum quantities are: 45,000 no external safety JCP configuration and 600,000 JCP with the external safety configuration; 649,000 Holsters; 96,050 Standard Capacity Magazines; 192,099 High Capacity Magazines; 667,000 Magazine Holders; 132,037 Suppressor attachment kits; Provisioning Item Order, Technical Data Package and associated Data.
Transportation shall be F.O.B. Destination.
The solicitation will require, free of charge to the government, delivery of 24 each product samples along with a concise written proposal all due on the closing date stated in the solicitation. The 24-each product sample from the successful offeror may be accepted as the Minimum Quantity. Any subsequent delivery orders for JCP's will order between 50 each and 200,000 each with a maximum monthly delivery rate of 5,000 each.
Any subsequent orders for the ancillary items will require delivery to commence within 60 days after receipt of order. The product samples and written proposal will be evaluated on a best value basis and the Government will reserve the right to award to other than the lowest priced offeror and other than the highest technically rated offeror.
Product samples from unsuccessful offerors will be returned to the offerors upon request and at the offeror's expense. The Government cannot guarantee the condition of the product samples after testing.
All responsible sources may submit a proposal, which shall be considered by the agency.
The Government intend to issue a draft solicitation. Notifications, Solicitation, and other communication will be posted via FEDBIZOPS.
Questions may be emailed to Contract Specialist, Mr. Pfender at john.pfender@navy.mil.

TY44934

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CZ involved in US MIL pistol trials ?
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2006, 09:16:18 AM »
Angus wrote:

"I took a look and spoke with some of the guys "involved" with the trial and it seemed very much to me like the procurment had been written for the H&K. Difficult to beat that without producting a new gun.

Angus Duhh!
www.ghostholster.com"

Correct you are. The trials involved one "Larry Vickers" - who's name is the origin of the "Vicker's Count" used in IDPA - as an "impartial" evaluator to provide our troops with the best gun. Larry is a founding member of the IDPA game.

He is also closely associated with H&K. Conflict of interest? Yes, absolutely. So much so that I beleive he was escorted off the base where the trials are being conducted.

But hey, what do the lives of our fighting men matter when there are a few dollars to be made by Larry Vickers?

I still shoot IDPA, but I could do without Vickers, Bill Wilson & all their monkeys.


Offline atblis

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CZ involved in US MIL pistol trials ?
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2006, 09:31:57 AM »
Gun snobbery is amusing.

gmtx

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CZ involved in US MIL pistol trials ?
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2006, 10:33:35 AM »
Quote
Quote:
Correct you are. The trials involved one "Larry Vickers" - who's name is the origin of the "Vicker's Count" used in IDPA - as an "impartial" evaluator to provide our troops with the best gun. Larry is a founding member of the IDPA game.

He is also closely associated with H&K. Conflict of interest? Yes, absolutely. So much so that I beleive he was escorted off the base where the trials are being conducted.

But hey, what do the lives of our fighting men matter when there are a few dollars to be made by Larry Vickers?

I still shoot IDPA, but I could do without Vickers, Bill Wilson & all their monkeys.


This is why I am hesitant to get involved in IDPA.  I don't really want to be involved with or support an organization which tolerates this kind of practice.

Offline angus hobdell

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CZ involved in US MIL pistol trials ?
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2006, 02:13:27 PM »
Years ago when the SAS (British Special Forces) were trailing for new gun. cz 75 was control weapon for tests. Not actually on the test because CZech was still iron curtain.
I knew the armourer conducting the strip down reviews and maintaince reports.
He told me the gun that won hands down was the CZ75, but not eligble.
It was at the time alomost half the cost of the chosen gun.
Go figure:rolleyes
Angus Duhhhh!

Walt-Sherrill

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CZ involved in US MIL pistol trials ?
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2006, 06:29:27 PM »
Quote
Quote:
This is why I am hesitant to get involved in IDPA. I don't really want to be involved with or support an organization which tolerates this kind of practice.
The heart and soul of IDPA is the local matches -- where the big pricks aren't involved, and the rules are followed ONLY to keep games safe and competitive.  

Don't worry about that crap.  Find a local group and shoot.

gmtx

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CZ involved in US MIL pistol trials ?
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2006, 08:19:21 PM »
Sorry Walt.  Until IDPA cleans up its act I won't be involved.  Once IDPA cleans up its act, I'll join in.

Offline jakemartens

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CZ involved in US MIL pistol trials ?
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2006, 07:30:06 PM »
Here is the whole thing
www.globalsecurity.org/mi...nd/jcp.htm


As I was reading the request a couple of times the USP .45acp kept coming to mind.
And yes the military has recently been involved with H&K over the AR replacement XM project.  Yes Larry Vickers was the H&K rep for that.
But when you read the request there are a couple of things that stick out that would eliminate the H&K unless there were some changes
1-The JCP shall have an integral MIL-STD-1913 rail for the attachment of accessories

Yes this is an easy fix

2-The JCP shall be operable for a range of operators from the 5th to 95th percentile per section 3.6.3. To aid in this, the JCP should incorporate a modular grip adjustment system to provide enhanced ergonomics (O).

Anyone picked up a USP .45acp lately, it is a very large pistol with a very fullsize grip and a very long reach to the trigger. It also does not have a modular grip adjustment.

This is a huge contract for whatever company get's it and I am sure that every big company is trying to come up with something for this.  H&K is close with some models but would have to make some changes.  Glock would have to make some huge changes to their models. Springfield has came out with the XD .45acp, and it has an external grip safety.
On the sig forum they announced that at SHOT show they would be introducing several new models, several in .45acp which I am sure will include a wide body 220 with external safety and one without.
Beretta still makes the Cougar in .45acp.  Don't count some version of the 1911 out either.
Even the CZ 97 would almost qualify, it would just need a few changes.
It will be very interesting to see what happens.

ANd as far as IDPA is concerned, it is a very fun game and I like the fact that it uses real guns, not highly modified race guns.  But IPSC made some very good decisions by bringing in the Production Division and now the Single Stack Division.  IMO IPSC is ran like a business, IDPA is ran like someone pet project that doesn't want to hear what changes need to be made.  I have had alot of fun shooting IDPA, and don't have any problems with anyone shooting it.  I think there are some great gun handling skills that can be learned there, however I shot my last IDPA match in June 2005 and since then I have been shooting nothing but IPSC matches because I am more challenged, there is more shooting and I have more fun.  BTW I used the same gun all last year in IPSC as I have for the last 3 years of IDPA, a custom built Nowlin .45acp 1911.  I shot it in L10.
This year I have bought a CZ-75 SP01 to shoot in production, and if it made wieght I would shoot it in IDPA in ESP division no problem, if I wanted to shoot an IDPA match.




Offline Spetsnaz

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CZ involved in US MIL pistol trials ?
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2006, 03:05:45 AM »
www.10-8forums.com/ubbthr...&fpart=all

The HK45 is HK's entry for the JCP.