What is the benefit of a single action only conversion?

[sniperboy]

So..  I've read a few threads on the topic and understand how to do the conversion, but I can't seem to get the philosophical answer I am looking for : )

Question: From a purely academic standpoint, what is the benefit if any of a SAO conversion to a DA/SA SP-01 that cannot be gained from fully tuning a DA/SA normally?


For reference I have worked on a stock SP-01 with CGW parts and also have an Accu-Shadow.
Got into a discussion with a few guys at my local club about it and they are really hot and heavy on doing an SAO conversion to their SP-01, this confuses me because I have shot a stock CZ75 SAO and was not that impressed, and I feel that you can gain just as good an SA pull & reset from a DA/SA SP-01 using full upgrade of CGW or CZC parts. 

Is it simply EASIER to shortcut the process by doing a SA only conversion if they don't care about keeping the DA functionality or is there some other benefit? (reducing pre travel and over travel with screws rather than messing with a disconnector?)  Can you get the trigger LIGHTER in SAO than possible apples to apples springs with a fully carefully tuned DA/SA?

I just told the guys if you want an SAO then just cut to the chase, throw in a few extra $$$ and buy a Tactical Sport!  Converting an SP-01 makes it unusable for Production Class and is outclassed in Limited.  So in essence by doing an SAO conv., you've created a pistol that is an odd duck in any situation (tho they do not compete USPSA so its not an issue)...   but this is all simply academic / philosophical.  I want to help my local club pals as best as I can.  Perhaps they simply wanted a TS but did not want to pay the money?  If so then I have a feeling they will be disappointed if there's no way to make a poor man's TS, which I suspect is the case?

[SlvrDragon50]

Haven't done an SAO Conversion, but from reading people's conversion here, I believe they are getting lower SA pulls (generally). It is indeed a cheaper route as well as you can skip a disco, and the hammer spring replacement technically isn't necessary. However, most people I see who convert to SAO are doing it to range toys, not Limited guns. I don't think running a CZ SAO in Limited is really that great unless it was already converted in the past. Just run your standard CZ cocked and locked.


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[M1A4ME]

The Tactical Sports and TSOs are SAO, aren't they?

They may be for specific classes/types of competition/games.

Also, people that like 1911's seem to also like a CZ (better) if it's SAO.  You can put those straight triggers in the frame and get a little closer to the 1911 feel/operation.

[Chef Jeff]

This may not be the answer you're looking for, but for me, it has nothing to do with trigger pull per se, though I do like a nice smooth, creep free pull, with a crisp break. For me it's all about carry preference. I don't like DA. No matter how much I practice, and I have, I'm just not as accurate with DA as I am with SA. I figure if I ever need to use my carry weapon, I may only get one shot. It needs to count. I can count on my accuracy with SA, but I can't count on my accuracy with DA. The first thing I did to my P 07 Duty was pull out the decocker and put in the TS. I realize some prefer cocked and locked, others prefer hammer down with a DA first pull. I make no judgement either way. Maybe this is the way the guys at your club feel?

[sniperboy]

Thanks for your input.  I am not really fishing for an answer to win a bet or whatever : ) just sincerely curious why people go out of their way and are really turned on by the prospect of converting a DA/SA SP-01 to SAO.

Further clarification, keep in mind we are talking about a SAFETY model SP-01 so it can be carried/fired cocked and locked.  The guys at my range do NOT lower the hammer on the first shot, so they don't even care about DA pull. 

now that it is mentioned, I think the flat trigger and that perceived 1911 trigger has a lot to do with why people are drawn to this mod.

Or maybe it is just all that - PERCEPTION.  I was there once upon a time and did things to guns that were superfluous or that did not make sense but did so only because it was the trendy thing to do.  : ) its easy to forget we were once young and impressionable.   

[Chef Jeff]

I see. Other than preference, I can't see any reason. FWIW, I'm old, but still impressionable, lol.

ETA: It sounds like the series 70 vs series 80 debate in the 1911 world. There are those who swear a series 80 can never be tuned to the point where it has the same trigger pull as a series 70. I personally disagree, but to each their own. I figure everybody is free to spend their money how they see fit.

[milq]

Like you, I've shot a factory 75 SAO and wasn't particularly impressed. But it was a range rental too. From what I can tell, the conversion simplifies things and lets you concentrate on getting the SA trigger as good as possible without worrying about affecting anything else. I reckon it's also cheaper to go the SAO route vs the full pkg where parts are concerned.

[sniperboy]

Oh good lord, Series 70/80 mystique.  Exactly what I was talking about. 
On occasion, I so feel glad I am older and less willing, or feel the need to throw money around to make myself look good : )

milq, you know what I mean.  Making an SP-01 SAO doesn't magically make it better, which is what I think these guys at my range are expecting.  You still need to buy a new hammer and fit a sear to that hammer to make it decent.  I guess in the end you get a nice flat trigger (which I do like) and don't have to worry about a disconnector.

Often the simplest and most obvious answer is best when dealing with these types of "I don't get it??" questions. : )

[Chef Jeff]

Yep. I own both. I've had trigger jobs done on both, and honestly feel no difference. The only point I might concede is that it adds parts that could potentially malfunction. I've yet to personally hear or read a bona fide story where this has happened, though.

[M1A4ME]

Buy the CGW race hammer and adjustable sear and the SA trigger pull will be better if you don't do anything else to it.

My youngest son's CZ 75 SA trigger pull is around 2&1/2 or 2&1/4 lbs. (if I remember correctly.)  No polishing/stoning/filing on the hammer notch or the sear (CGW race hammer and adjustable sear).  He did want the firing pin safety removed from it.  It also has the straight trigger and the reduced power trigger return spring (among other parts that should not help/hurt the SA trigger pull.)

I don't know if a CZ 75 SA trigger pull can be modified to hang with the Tactical Sport trigger pulls or not.  I do know my CZ Tactical Sport (.40 S&W) has a 1&3/4 lb. trigger pull.  I have to be careful with it after shooting my CZ 75 Compact (3 lb. SA trigger pull) or my P07 (3&1/4 lb. SA trigger pull).

If you really want to find out what a good SA trigger pull can feel like call the guys at Cajun Gun Works or CZ Custom and see what they can do for yours.

[Earl Keese]

"I have shot a stock CZ75 SAO and was not that impressed."
A stock 75 SA isn't the best example of what a good SAO can be. I have a pre-b and also a 97B that have been converted. I like them because :
1. The flat trigger allows me to put my finger where I want(improved leverage).
2. I'm able to use an oem hammer spring for reliable primer ignition and crisper trigger break. This avoids the compromise you have when tuning for a lighter DA pull with light hammer springs.
3. With SAO, I find it easier to tune multiple guns to have almost identical triggers for bullseye use.

SAO alone offers little in the way of improved feel, you still need to change the hammer to eliminate creep, and use a trigger with pre and overtravel screws. I also prefer to eliminate the fpb to get the shortest reset possible. With DA/SA there is more trigger travel which means more movement/friction, and more internal polishing are required. Just my opinions, others may feel differently.

[fastlane604]

I have a 75 Shadow SAO with the flat face trigger and a SP-01 with the CGW Pro-Package.  Since, I shoot the SP-01 cocked and locked I am going to convert the SP-01 to SAO.  What I found was that when I got the DA where I liked it, about 5.5 lbs, my SA pull was too light for me, about 2.5 lbs. I like it at 3.5 lbs.  Plus, I like the flat trigger and as Earl mentioned, it is easier to get consistent trigger pulls across my range of guns, when I eliminate the DA pulls.  I have  spent money that is now wasted to get a great DA pull on the SP-01, so I am not saving money converting to SA. Actually, it costs me about $50 for the trigger and shipping.

 But, if I were starting from scratch with a Shadow, 85c or pre-B, I can just swap triggers and trigger pin and put in a race hammer and adjustable sear and I'm done. I have the 3.5 lb pull that I like and don't have to worry about a heavy DA pull. I have a Compact that is untouched and I plan on converting it also.

One thing I failed to mention, you do have to find a safety that works for you or have one modified to work for you.

[sniperboy]

Thanks all for taking the time to post feedback - I think I have a better grasp as to why people are so attracted to the SAO conversion.
One thing comes to the forefront of my mind though...  a few people talk about doing away with worrying about the DA action, however, when tuning a DA/SA, can't you just focus your attention to the SA part of the DA/SA and just shoot the gun in SA only cocked/locked, ignoring the effect of the mainspring on the DA, and only have DA as insurance?  That is, put in a new hammer, a strong mainspring for reliability (that has not as significant effect on SA) then focus only on the SA pull and ignore the DA pull?

This leaves only the reset (whether SAO or DA/SA tuning its the same process with removing the firing pin block) and pretravel.  Would it be reasonable to say that an SAO conversion forgoes the need for messing with a disconnector (throw it away) as opposed to just a set screw of an SAO flat trigger?

[fastlane604]

Thanks all for taking the time to post feedback - I think I have a better grasp as to why people are so attracted to the SAO conversion.
One thing comes to the forefront of my mind though...  a few people talk about doing away with worrying about the DA action, however, when tuning a DA/SA, can't you just focus your attention to the SA part of the DA/SA and just shoot the gun in SA only cocked/locked, ignoring the effect of the mainspring on the DA, and only have DA as insurance?  That is, put in a new hammer, a strong mainspring for reliability (that has not as significant effect on SA) then focus only on the SA pull and ignore the DA pull?

This leaves only the reset (whether SAO or DA/SA tuning its the same process with removing the firing pin block) and pretravel.  Would it be reasonable to say that an SAO conversion forgoes the need for messing with a disconnector (throw it away) as opposed to just a set screw of an SAO flat trigger?

Yes, you can tune for just  SA and ignore DA.  That is what I have been doing with my SP-01.  However I prefer the flat SA trigger, which is why I am converting it to SAO. 

[sniperboy]

Thank you.  I appreciate the enlightenment.  This is less confusing to me now. : )

I ofcourse just saw a pertinent topic on the CGW subforum (dunno how I missed that) that showcases Scarlett Pistol's videos that talks about this too.  Great stuff.