Author Topic: Witness FTF Issues  (Read 3273 times)

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Offline directdrill

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Witness FTF Issues
« on: January 14, 2018, 06:38:37 PM »
I recently (December 2017) purchased a used Witness P-S .40 at a local gun show.  It is a polymer finish and it's a compact (holds 12 rounds in the magazine).   I have a CZ and two other CZ clones (Sarsilmaz K2 45 and Sarsilmaz B6P 9mm), and I was looking for one in .40 caliber.  The gun was in good shape and I got it for a good price.  I took it home and gave it a good cleaning.  Since purchasing, I've now put 250 rounds through the gun.  I'm having failure to feed issues.  I left the gun at my local gun range and had the feed ramp polished.  I picked it up today, and I'm still having FTF issues.  The only type of ammo I've used in the gun is CCI Blazer 180 grain FMJ.

I thought that having the feed ramp polished would help the problem, and it does feed slightly better, however, I'm still having the issues.  I've used the factory magazine as well as two Mec-Gar magazines that I have purchased.  I've had FTF issues with all three magazines.  The factory magazine has the most FTF issues, so I suspect that I need to change the magazine springs.  I've ordered Wolff +5% magazine springs, and I'll install them in all three magazines when they arrive.  Has anyone else experienced this with the Witness in .40?  Is there anything else that I can do to resolve the issue?

Offline weaselfire

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Re: Witness FTF Issues
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2018, 02:44:54 PM »
What made you think polishing the feed ramp would help?  Have considered telling your gunsmith it has feed issues and letting him figure out why and fixing it?

Jeff

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


Offline directdrill

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Re: Witness FTF Issues
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2018, 03:14:24 PM »
What made you think polishing the feed ramp would help?  Have considered telling your gunsmith it has feed issues and letting him figure out why and fixing it?

Jeff


Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

The gunsmith recommended polishing the feed ramp. That's why I had the work done. The issue hasn't been resolved. That's what I'm asking on this forum.

Offline Barebow

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Re: Witness FTF Issues
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2018, 04:47:57 PM »
What oil are you using for the slide? 

Offline directdrill

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Re: Witness FTF Issues
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2018, 05:00:29 PM »
What oil are you using for the slide?

The gun has been cleaned with CLP and I use Hoppes oil on the slide.

Offline jwc007

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Re: Witness FTF Issues
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2018, 06:20:12 PM »
Remove the Extractor and Spring and clean out the Slide Extractor Channel.  Examine the Extractor for straightness and burrs.  Polish the blade section if necessary.  Replace the Extractor and/or Spring if necessary.
"Easy is the path to wisdom for those not blinded by ego." - Yoda


For all of those killed by a 9mm: "Get up! You are not dead! You were shot with a useless cartridge!"

Offline directdrill

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Re: Witness FTF Issues
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2018, 05:48:11 AM »
Remove the Extractor and Spring and clean out the Slide Extractor Channel.  Examine the Extractor for straightness and burrs.  Polish the blade section if necessary.  Replace the Extractor and/or Spring if necessary.

I didn't have a lot of time last night, but I tried to remove the extractor, and I felt like I was tapping the pin too hard and it never moved.  I'll try again when I have more time.  I appreciate the help.

Offline Texf6

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Re: Witness FTF Issues
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2018, 11:01:36 PM »
Did this resolve your issue? 

Texf6

Offline directdrill

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Re: Witness FTF Issues
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2018, 06:32:48 AM »
Did this resolve your issue? 

Texf6

Unfortunately, no.  I have not had any luck in removing the extractor.  I've tried removing it using a punch, but the pin doesn't want to budge.  I should receive the new Wolff +5% magazine springs early next week, and I'll install those and see if that helps.

Offline jwc007

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Re: Witness FTF Issues
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2018, 04:50:44 PM »
Unfortunately, no.  I have not had any luck in removing the extractor.  I've tried removing it using a punch, but the pin doesn't want to budge. 

My Practice, when servicing the Extractor,

1)  Place Slide, bottom up, on a surface that will allow the Extractor Roll Pin to move out from the top of the Slide.
A plastic Can Cup will suffice if you do not have an Armorers Block.

2) Using a small punch or better yet, a Roll Pin Punch, with a small Hammer, drive the Extractor Roll Pin out of the Top of the Slide, just until the Extractor is released.
IF you've done everything right the Roll Pin will still be sticking out the top of the Slide.

3) Service the Extractor and it's Spring, as required.  Clean out the Slide Extractor Channel if needed.

4) Using an appropriately sized Drill Bit Shank as a Slave Pin, assemble the Extractor and Spring back into the Slide.
From the Top of the Slide, Drive the Roll Pin back into the Slide until it is even with the Top Surface of the Slide.

5) Reassemble Pistol and head to Range to test fire at least 100 rounds.
"Easy is the path to wisdom for those not blinded by ego." - Yoda


For all of those killed by a 9mm: "Get up! You are not dead! You were shot with a useless cartridge!"

Offline directdrill

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Re: Witness FTF Issues
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2018, 07:28:35 PM »
Unfortunately, no.  I have not had any luck in removing the extractor.  I've tried removing it using a punch, but the pin doesn't want to budge. 

My Practice, when servicing the Extractor,

1)  Place Slide, bottom up, on a surface that will allow the Extractor Roll Pin to move out from the top of the Slide.
A plastic Can Cup will suffice if you do not have an Armorers Block.

2) Using a small punch or better yet, a Roll Pin Punch, with a small Hammer, drive the Extractor Roll Pin out of the Top of the Slide, just until the Extractor is released.
IF you've done everything right the Roll Pin will still be sticking out the top of the Slide.

3) Service the Extractor and it's Spring, as required.  Clean out the Slide Extractor Channel if needed.

4) Using an appropriately sized Drill Bit Shank as a Slave Pin, assemble the Extractor and Spring back into the Slide.
From the Top of the Slide, Drive the Roll Pin back into the Slide until it is even with the Top Surface of the Slide.

5) Reassemble Pistol and head to Range to test fire at least 100 rounds.

Thank you very much for the detailed instructions.  At step 3, I've used a small punch and a hammer.  I've tapped the punch pretty hard, and the pin hasn't budged.  This is my first time to attempt something like this, so I'm a bit hesitant to use a lot of force with the hammer.  I'll give it another try.  If I don't feel comfortable, I may just take it back to the gunsmith at the range where I had the feed ramp polished.  Once again, I appreciate your help and the instructions.  I don't want to give up on the Witness, as I really like it.  I just need it to feed more reliably.

Offline MB

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Re: Witness FTF Issues
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2018, 03:30:44 AM »
I have a 10mm compact, but I'll guess that you have the same problem I had. First of all, my extractor also has absolutely no tension (something I need to fix) but I think that might not be your problem.
this goes for every 12rnd magazine I have. If I loaded the magazine to capacity and than strip every round by hand, every once in a while the follower would bind up and the cartridge would nose dive, hit the front wall of the magazine, and jam up. I imagine that the slide has enough brute force to jump the wall and send the nose straight up, causing a ftf.

It appears that Tanfoglio did not redesign the spring for a compact, but are cutting their full size springs to size. Since their springs are staggered and each coil is smaller than the last, cutting the spring from the bottom leaves a bottom coil that is to small to fit over the hump in the floor plate and properly seat.

I suggest that you take one magazine apart, and take a look. Also notice if the top coils in your spring are narrower than the bottom coils. If the coils are the same size, you probably have an aftermarket spring, and things just got more complicated.
First take the spring, and bend the tail of the bottom coil back up to be even with the wire on the other side. (That was my clue that full size springs are cut instead of a dedicated design)
Second, push the.bottom coil over the hump in the floor plate, and under the small ridges on the sides of that hump, it should be a tight fit, and the floor plate will be securely held. (An aftermarket spring will most likely not fit over that centering hump.)
Now, holding your thumbs under the floor plate with your fingers compress a few bottom coils onto the floor plate. If you have the same problem I had, the remaining coils are to small to slide over the hump, leaving 1/4inch space in the back, and tilting the spring forward.
I believe that this forced tilt binds the bottom half of the spring. The top half has enough compression to feed a few rounds, than the follower stops pushing, the next stripped round nose dives, the case catches the front wall of the magazine and the brute force of the slide catapults the nose straight up causing a jam. When you clear the jam, the vibration and extra room unbinds the spring, and the gun fires with no other issues.

Than again, I'm not a gunsmith, not even an experienced shooter, so all of this could be BS.

To fix the problem I guess I could get a full length spring and cut it from the top instead of the bottom, but one of my followers is black, and needs the small coils to fit properly. Not sure if wider coils would cause any problems with the red followers, I didn't try it.

I took a dremel with a sanding drum, starting light in the middle and going heavier towards the back of the hump (flat part of the floor plate) I sanded the hump down enough just so the first coil had something to grab on to, and I didn't damage the ridges on the sides of the hump that hold the spring down.
The remaining coils still don't go over the back of the hump, but there is very little of the hump left to cause any problems, and the spring tracks straight. I left the front of the hump alone since it didn't seem to cause any problems, and the coils slid all the way down.

5% wolf springs were a bit more complicated. The coils are small and same size all the way down. On one magazine I sanded most of the hump flat, just leaving the first 1/4 ( which also had to be sanded on the sides to match the width of the coil) for indexing of the spring.

So far none of my magazines are binding any longer. I am running one magazine with a black follower and stock spring, one magazine with 5% wolf spring and red follower, and 3 magazines with red followers and stock springs.

This worked for me. Your mileage might vary.

As I said before. I am not a gunsmith and have a very small sample to work with. And I'm not suggesting that you should modify the magazine in any way. My witness is a range toy. I shoot it, and I take the risk.  I would not modify any defensive firearms my self.

I noticed that the witness is a bit sloppy, next on the list is tuning the extractor tension, and a Henning guide rod. Once that is complete, I can respring it, and finally tune the ejector.

Edit: got the new extractor in mail today and it also did not put any tension on the cartridge. The extractor stop was at 0.052, I filed it down to 0.043 before it applied any tension in my pistol. Extractor was marked .40
I'm curious if all LF witnesses in .40/10mm have such loose extractors
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 12:19:26 PM by MB »