Author Topic: new reloader - preemptive questions  (Read 7490 times)

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Offline SoCal

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Re: new reloader - preemptive questions
« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2018, 08:18:39 PM »

N330 impossible to find at the stores, so now I'm contemplating N320 or N340...


N330 is becoming (slowly) available again BUT there is no one magic powder.  Powder valley has some in 1# only, the 4# went FAST!  Both N320 and N340 work well
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Offline Wobbly

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Re: new reloader - preemptive questions
« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2018, 08:55:36 PM »
What would be the better option powder wise? At my club I've heard of people struggling to get PF with 124gr and N320 without exceeding load manual data?


Toby -
? It's as Painter said, and here's why.... Everything we do in reloading is to control chamber pressure.

The primary number in the load manual you want to adhere to and strictly follow is the bullet velocity. The velocity more closely tracks the chamber pressure, and chamber pressure is what determines Max Load.

If you don't have a chrono, then obviously the only reference left for you to follow is the powder weight. But that number is second place to velocity.



The reason for this is that Load Data is developed in test barrels that are 8 inches (203mm) or longer. See photo above. Longer barrels develop greater velocities for any given amount of powder. So in your short 4 inch pistol barrel you'll need to add more powder than given in the manual to achieve the same velocity. Exactly how much more only a chrono can tell you.

? So the order you want to test your ladders is to find the accuracy load first. Then you'll chrono that load to make sure that you are over PF125. If your best accuracy is at PF123, then obviously you'll need to bump that up to PF128-130.


Hope this helps !
« Last Edit: February 07, 2018, 09:10:42 PM by Wobbly »
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Offline Wobbly

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Re: new reloader - preemptive questions
« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2018, 08:58:22 PM »
N330 is becoming (slowly) available again BUT there is no one magic powder.  Powder valley has some in 1# only, the 4# went FAST!  Both N320 and N340 work well.


Toby is in Belgium.
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Offline TdC

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Re: new reloader - preemptive questions
« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2018, 02:53:16 AM »
Thank you all for the advice!
And for the theory behind pressure,  velocity and powdercharge. (I still have so much to learn)
I'll be looking after accurate loads and then chrony them for PF.

Thank you for putting up with my questions which I am sure you've all answered numerous times

Toby

Offline Wobbly

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Re: new reloader - preemptive questions
« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2018, 08:15:11 AM »
We've had the questions before....

...but never from someone with the ability to send us some Trappist beer.

Hint, hint, hint.  O0
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Offline TdC

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Re: new reloader - preemptive questions
« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2018, 09:37:28 AM »
So I thought it is time for a little update since I got to chrono some rounds (10 shots each).

The first string are reloads from earlier this year. The second string are recent reloads. (I upped the charge a bit because I saw better accuracy)

Everything is mixed brass, S&B primers, N320, LOS 145gr plated 9mm, AOL 29mm

First string 3,55gr N320
average velocity 884.6fps PF 128
st dev 15
max spread 48fps

Second string 3.65gr N320
average velocity 904.2 PF 131
st dev 20
max spread 75fps

however I must have messed up one charge (took 10 random bullets out of my vault) because if I deleted 1 abnormal low velocity shot in the second string, I got:

av vel 910fps, PF 132
st dev 8
max spread 27fps

so I understand for plated rounds, these seem to be pretty consistent.

Greets
Toby

edit: if necessary I can give the full string of velocities
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 11:36:39 AM by TdC »

Offline Wobbly

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Re: new reloader - preemptive questions
« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2018, 04:12:33 PM »
Everything is mixed brass, S&B primers, N320, LOS 145gr plated 9mm, AOL 29mm

First string 3,55gr N320
average velocity 884.6fps PF 128
st dev 15
max spread 48fps

Second string 3.65gr N320
average velocity 904.2 PF 131
st dev 20
max spread 75fps

however I must have messed up one charge (took 10 random bullets out of my vault) because if I deleted 1 abnormal low velocity shot in the second string, I got:

av vel 910fps, PF 132
st dev 8
max spread 27fps

The VihtaVuori does not give numbers for using 147gr Ranier plated with N320.... which is one reason I suggested N330. As a new reloader, I'd go back to the 3N37 just to be safe. Or move to the 124gr bullet which does have numbers for N320.

Here's the problem with N320.... With 115gr Ranier the load "window" goes from 3.9 to 4.4gr, or a total window of 0.5gr. With 124gr Ranier the window goes from 3.8 to 4.1gr, or a total window of 0.3gr. In other words, as the bullet gets heavier, the window using the same powder gets smaller. So the load window with 145/147gr might be a total of 0.1 or 0.15gr !! Another way to state that is that your margins for error greatly diminish, and your risk greatly increases. And you've got no numbers from Vit to guide you, so chrono numbers mean exactly zero.

However, N320 with 124gr bullets works very well. As I explained earlier, becasue the data is collected in longer barrels, the loads can go slightly higher than those listed. Your friends that told you otherwise were only looking at the load manual, not the chrono reports.

The only other option you have is to call Vit and ask for data on N320 with 145 gr bullets. They may actually have it. You must get the velocities with the loads. Then you'll have data you can relate to your collected data.

Hope this helps.  ;)


PS. I agree with dropping data points that are obviously errors.
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Offline TdC

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Re: new reloader - preemptive questions
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2018, 01:16:33 AM »
Thank you for the advice. Still drinking from the hose to get all knowledge in...

I have some loads for the 3n37 too, but didn't have them with me the day someone brought the chronograph.

The only reason I dared trying the N320 is because VV now has N320 with the 145gr H&n plated bullet listed at 968 fps max velocity on their site. It has a load window of 0.7gr... I hope I wasn't wrong to rely on that?

When my stash of 145gr plated is gone I'm probably going to go with 124 fmj as my local shop has recently started stocking them. N330 however is a needle in a haystack to find.

Thanks again for all the great advice in this thread and on this forum.
Toby

Offline painter

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Re: new reloader - preemptive questions
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2018, 07:07:54 AM »
I would have done the same with the N320 and the 147. I rarely load at max load, so I would likely start at the same starting load and stop a tenth, or so, below max.
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Offline Wobbly

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Re: new reloader - preemptive questions
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2018, 08:43:56 AM »
The only reason I dared trying the N320 is because VV now has N320 with the 145gr H&N plated bullet listed at 968 fps max velocity on their site. It has a load window of 0.7gr... I hope I wasn't wrong to rely on that ?

Toby -
No, sir. Faster powders and heavy bullets is a traditional IPSC load, but none of the VV booklets I have referenced that load. If the gun is operating properly, then I would not go any higher. If the gun is not operating, then I would order a 14# recoil spring. The load pretty much needs to stay where it is now.

When my stash of 145gr plated is gone I'm probably going to go with 124 fmj as my local shop has recently started stocking them. N330 however is a needle in a haystack to find.

I really think you'll like the 124gr bullet a lot better. You may still need the reduced power recoil spring, but it will be cheaper to shoot and your times will be better.

All the best !
In God we trust; On 'Starting Load' we rely.

Offline TdC

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Re: new reloader - preemptive questions
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2018, 09:51:42 AM »
Wobbly and Painter,

thanks for the reply.
Indeed it is the only reference I found regarding 145gr plated and N320 so I decided to stay 20% below max (.15gr).

It is a year since I shoot IPSC standard division minor and my training times are getting better (only compared to myself, I still suck in comparison to others  :-[ )
And I started with what club members advised.... however I feel my slide is sluggish compared to the occasional 124gr I shoot.
And while fmj isn't cheaper than plated, I did find better accuracy. So that makes deciding easy if the local shops stock it.

With the 3.65gr load everything feeds and ejects fine about to about 4 feet away (completely stock shadow)

Thanks
Toby

Offline painter

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Re: new reloader - preemptive questions
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2018, 10:25:18 AM »
Faster powders and heavy bullets is a traditional IPSC load, but none of the VV booklets I have referenced that load.

The VV reloading guides I have reference 145, and 147 gr bullets, all the way back to 2014. Granted, not that particular bullet.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 06:54:50 PM by Wobbly »
I had the right to remain silent...

but not the ability.

Offline Wobbly

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Re: new reloader - preemptive questions
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2018, 06:56:45 PM »
I thought I had up-to-date info. So I looked. My latest VV booklet is dated 2008 !!

Darn, I'm gettin' old !  :o
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Offline Radom

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Re: new reloader - preemptive questions
« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2018, 05:12:08 PM »
Toby,

Have you looked at any of the Nobel-Vectan powders?  I assume they are available in Belgium, but I am often wrong...
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Offline IDescribe

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Re: new reloader - preemptive questions
« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2018, 05:43:39 PM »
Vhit has data for N320 with the XTReme 147gr RN, OAL 1.16

3.7gr Max Load -- 948 feet/sec



I also have my own load data for N320 with the XTReme 147 RN at 1.16:

3.5gr -- 895 feet/sec
3.6gr -- 910 feet/sec
3.7gr -- 924 feet/sec