Author Topic: Help With Ballistics Science/Physics  (Read 3892 times)

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Offline painter

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Re: Help With Ballistics Science/Physics
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2019, 06:51:55 AM »
Mass and velocity are the sole factors affecting recoil.

There is also wait! ???
Wait (weight  ;)) is mass in this context.

no, no, no, it is how long you gotta wait till it hits something! O0
I dunno...every time I fired my Mosin there was no wait at all before the recoil whacked me like a rented mule. ;D
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Offline M1A4ME

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Re: Help With Ballistics Science/Physics
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2019, 08:02:19 AM »
The science always will, if you go out and shoot different things with different bullets, run smack dab into reality.

Computer models are not reality.  Equations are not reality.  Gel, wet newspaper/magazines/logs/cars, etc. are not reality.

Shoot enough stuff, with enough bullets and you'll find that bullets sometimes do funny things you'd never really expect and when you tell others about it some will refuse to believe it (and that's okay, you know what you saw, they only know what they read somewhere or heard from someone else.)

I remember reading a piece by Elmer Keith many years ago.  He and a friend made some solid (don't remember if they were brass or copper) bullets on a lathe for a .220 Swift.  They estimated velocity based on the lighter weight of the solid bullet vs. the standard lead/gilding metal jacketed bullets normally used in the cartridge.  Then they went out and shot jack rabbits with it.  Expecting spectacular kills due to the extremely high velocity they were disappointed to see the rabbits jerk a little, pick a hind foot up to scratch at the entrance/exit wound and then continue to eat till they collapsed from loss of blood a few seconds/minutes later.

While it may not answer many of your ballistics questions a man by the name of Gen. J. Hatcher wrote some really interesting books many years ago about his experiences working in the rifle/cartridge development arms of the US Army in the 20's, 30's and 40's.

I've read Hatcher's Notebook and Hatcher's Book of the Garand.  I need to dig them out of a box and read them again.  Really good books on real world experiences by a guy who was always asking questions and working on problems with fire arms and ammo.
I just keep wasting time and money on other brands trying to find/make one shoot like my P07 and P09.  What is wrong with me?

Offline Walt Sherrill

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Re: Help With Ballistics Science/Physics
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2019, 09:47:36 AM »
I think it's important to at least try to understand the ballistics and physics being addressed in this discussion, but it probably becomes more important if you're using a rifle on a distant target than a handgun on a target up close and personal.  I'm not trying to downplay the importance of this discussion, but wonder the self-defense/home defense concerns might push this discussion in a different direction if hunting (and rifle velocities) is not one's primary concern.

Much of the materials presented in the various excerpts and references address rifle bullet performance at great distances.  This is a handgun forum, and while some here (I don't know how many) do hunt with handguns, many are arguably more interested in handgun performance at self-defense and home-defense distances.   I think we might be talking about what are two basically different subjects (even though the ballistics apply to both types of rounds). 
 
In the reading I've done, which has been mostly focused on the rounds used in CARRY weapons, it seems that WHERE YOU HIT YOUR TARGET -- (placement -- IS A KEY CONCERN and PENETRATION IS CRITICAL.  That penetration  must be sufficient to hit a vital organ, major bone structure, or the central nervous system.  But most-mortem or post-conflict studies of shooting victims show that many 9mm, .40, .357 SIG, .45/.45 GAP, and 10mm self-defense rounds will do the job.  The diameter of the round is important, but expanding bullet designs have done much to reduce the performance differences between calibers.   

It has been argued elsewhere that larger diameter rounds that cause the target to "bleed out" more quickly are important, but I've also been led to believe that the primary job of a self-defense or home defense round is to hit something vital that STOPS THE ATTACK QUICKLY -- the person who wants to survive a self-defense conflict can't wait for the attacker to bleed out.  (Even if you hit the attacker in the heart, he or she may still have almost a minute to hit you in the same place!)

Secondary wound cavities and energy transfer, once much talked about, now seem to be of less interest than was once the case, at least for handgun calibers.  This is probably due, at least in part, to the fact that there are too many well-documented examples of aggressors continuing the attack despite many well-placed handgun hits to the torso.   Secondary wound cavities (i.e., cavitation) seem to be disabling mostly with rifle round velocities. which are in excess of 2,000 fps.  Bleeding out the target is important too, both in military conflicts and hunting, and wounding the target, including loss of blood, is important, and that happens most quickly with rifle rounds.  Even the best handgun self-defense rounds seldom get close to rifle velocities (or distances.)  As I noted earlier, if they an attacker has time to bleed out, he or she may have enough time to kill you.

That said, I'll now go away and continue to struggle with the physics (which I only poorly understand) and re-read parts of my sole reference book on ballistics (i.e., Understanding Ballistics - Basic to Advanced Ballistics Simplified Illustrated and Explained by Robert A. Rinker.)  This text came highly recommended on several other forums, and if anyone knows of a better source, please share it with me and everyone else participating here.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2019, 09:14:25 AM by Walt Sherrill »

Offline Radom

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Re: Help With Ballistics Science/Physics
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2019, 07:07:43 AM »
I am currently working in a hospital. 

Handguns are incredibly weak.  Most handgun fatalities are actually caused by hitting a major blood vessel, and the patient loses blood faster than he/she receives primary care.

To clarify, there area lot of factors.  A .22 LR is potentially lethal, whether it penetrates the frontal bone of the skull, or it glances across the upper ribs and strikes the vena cava.   

You have to hit the CNS with a handgun. Bigger chamberings/calibers improve your odds of hitting something significant.

That said, I work with a lot of surgeons, doctors, nurses, and techs: they carry 9mm, .357 Magnum, and .38 Special +P.  The idea is aiming and hitting.  Most of them do not practice as much as "firearm enthusiasts," but they ARE packing. 

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Offline Hammer Time

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Re: Help With Ballistics Science/Physics
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2019, 09:57:08 AM »
That said, I work with a lot of surgeons, doctors, nurses, and techs: they carry 9mm, .357 Magnum, and .38 Special +P.  The idea is aiming and hitting.  Most of them do not practice as much as "firearm enthusiasts," but they ARE packing.

That's something I've been realizing lately as well - a lot more people in the healthcare industry carry, on the job, than I used to think.

I've also had a number of them tell me that when the body is laying on the table, they couldn't say whether is a 9mm hole, .45 or .357 - in general, a hole from a pistol caliber all looks the same.

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Help With Ballistics Science/Physics
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2019, 10:29:35 AM »
? All this fits with my understanding.... No pistol is going to "knock down" an opponent. If it could, then you couldn't hold on to it with your own hands. (For every action there is an opposite, but equal reaction.) Instead, the pistol works by either putting the assailant in so much pain he'd rather taunt someone else, OR ventilates the assailant so well that he lacks the blood/ oxygen/ cognitive power/ and-or central nervous system capability to physically continue.

Both these outcomes depend upon multiple, well-placed shots.


? And as to caliber... Here's a 158gr Berry plated bullet shot from a 4" S&W Model 10 38 Special. The calipers are set to 1.00". This was a standard load, not +P or anything like that.






Obviously, it has hit a steel plate just right, but it's still amazing to see.

 ;)
« Last Edit: February 19, 2019, 02:03:52 PM by Wobbly »
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Offline Radom

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Re: Help With Ballistics Science/Physics
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2019, 01:54:39 PM »
That said, I work with a lot of surgeons, doctors, nurses, and techs: they carry 9mm, .357 Magnum, and .38 Special +P.  The idea is aiming and hitting.  Most of them do not practice as much as "firearm enthusiasts," but they ARE packing.

That's something I've been realizing lately as well - a lot more people in the healthcare industry carry, on the job, than I used to think.

I've also had a number of them tell me that when the body is laying on the table, they couldn't say whether is a 9mm hole, .45 or .357 - in general, a hole from a pistol caliber all looks the same.

Our hospital system has two components/campuses.  One is very much the traditional idea of an "inner city" hospital with an ED (emergency department) and various clinics.  The night shift there are packing, by and large.  In general, they are not carrying what firearms enthusiasts would choose.  They tend to see a "Saturday Night Special" as a viable option.  This is their personal choice, not a discrepancy in pay.

The other campus is very "suburban."  It has an ED, various clinics, and specialized units (surgery, cardiac, pediatric, etc.).  Not as many people carry there.  The few that do tend to be ex-military and/or "firearm enthusiasts."  They tend to invest in the sorts of pistols people on this forum would consider. 

To be clear, carrying a weapon in our hospital system is grounds for immediate termination, regardless of circumstances or multiple state laws to the contrary. 
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