Author Topic: A one-line Made in Czechoslovakia frame oddity...  (Read 4546 times)

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Offline Psyop96

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A one-line Made in Czechoslovakia frame oddity...
« on: February 24, 2019, 06:03:29 AM »
Greetings. If you?ve been following CZs for a while, you are aware of the oddities and inconsistencies of CZ firearm production such as in the older pre-B where there?s not much information available. Thanks to member Earl Keese for spotting this one on an auction site and bringing it to my attention. When he passed on it, I decided to bring it into the forum fold and here?s a closer look at it.

When looking at the external features of a pre-B, these are the usual subtle and not so subtle, distinguishing features that give a clue on the period of production if the proof year is not visible on the oval: ?Made in Czechoslovakia? (on one or two lines), blued or painted finish, safety lever (one or two hole), wide or narrow hammer, trigger guard sweep/size, factory grips and of course, serial number. These typically place a pre-B into these year(s): 1980-1982/1983, 1984, 1985, 1986-1987 and 1988 onwards.

The feature that caught Earl Keese?s eye was the ?Made In Czechoslovakia? on one line in the frame, usually a sign that the pistol is from 1980-1983. However, the serial number was an alpha+4 digits which would not match the sequence of an early 80s gun (6-digits). The year on the oval was not clear in the auction photo.

The question at hand....did CZUB produce -
a) a frame oddity in 1990 with the one-line roll mark when the two-line roll mark was the standard since some time in 1983?
b) a near-complete pistol from the early 80s that was finally proofed and released?
c) an early 80s frame mated with current 1990 slide and production parts?

Short answer, there?s not enough to be conclusive to my untrained eyes. I prefer to lean towards the c) possibility of older frame and current slide/parts (it has the narrow spur hammer from 1988 forward). Perhaps this makes it an even more interesting specimen and true to the unpredictable CZ character.

Here?s what I found. On inspection, the oval revealed a 1990 proof year. This is a well worn pistol with many shiny spots. There?s a difference in looking at the base finish of the slide and frame. Under some lighting, the frame looks like it has a slight hue (reminiscent of the plum hue that some blued pistols acquire?). The Made in Czechoslovakia was finely roll marked in small sized font whereas the serial number on the slide and barrel looked crudely stamped in a larger size font. This one has the narrow spur hammer.

I compared it with a 1983 and a 1991, with both pistols in the standard blued and painted finish of their time. Externally, the trigger guard shape and size is closer to the 83 than the 91 with its slightly enlarged, rounder guard and bulge on the bottom front. This also has the small, rounded opening for the trigger pin housing compared to the expanded, ?igloo? opening on the 1991. This is not a determining feature as the small pin hole can be found into some 1991 pistols.

From top to bottom by year: 1983, 1990, 1991. A cursory look into the internals of the frames, slides and barrels doesn?t reveal much aside from the typical markings, finish and rough tool marks found in pre-Bs. The barrels for the 1990 and 1991 have a more visible flat surface ridge under the locking lugs. One unusual feature with the 1990 gun is that the rail in the frame just above the mag well on the left side is very faint...it?s almost smooth in a small spot. My wild conjecture is that it might have been cause for quality control rejection back in the early 80s but okayed for production use by 1990.

Thanks for looking. Would love to hear from pre-B owners if they have interesting aspects of their pistols to share.

Photo time:





1983 (top)


1991 (bottom; note - not shown with original slide stop)


Top to bottom: 83, 90, 91.






Edit - forget to mention it has the usual nice pre-B trigger action with short reset. Shoots a bit low for me but good groupings can be had.




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« Last Edit: February 24, 2019, 06:35:28 AM by Psyop96 »

Offline Tok36

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Re: A one-line Made in Czechoslovakia frame oddity...
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2019, 07:35:48 AM »
Very informative and interesting example. Thank you for the pictures and Analysis.
Will work for CZ pics! (including but not limited to all CZ clones)

Offline Blackwatch

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Re: A one-line Made in Czechoslovakia frame oddity...
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2019, 09:06:23 AM »
Psyop96 thanks for taking the time to prepare, compile and share - I really enjoyed reading and following the rationale of how this combination exists.

Of the production scenarios put forward, I too would opt for early 80's frame mated with 1990 parts (maybe the frame was found in an old storage bin!). Your pictures capture hue of the frame, seen on many blued 75's from the early 80's, especially in contrast with the slide and fire controls.

A very interesting piece to have in ones collection - congratulations  :) (well spotted Earl)

Offline rdcinhou

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Re: A one-line Made in Czechoslovakia frame oddity...
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2019, 10:35:05 AM »
Wouldn't you know it, he now has me wanting to take a closer look at all the pre-B's.

Did you move to the Czech Republic just specifically to collect CZ's or are you there for business?
CZ24/27/38/40P/45/52, Vzor 50/70,75BΩ,75D Compact,P01/07/09,P10M/S/C/F(9mm,.45), Phantom,SP01 Tactical,Shadow 2 (Blue,Urban Gray), 82/83/85 PreB, 97BE,97BD,97BDE,100,1911A1, 2075D RAMI,452 American,550 Urban Counter Sniper,805 Bren S1,Drake G2,Duo,Z,vz24 8mm Mauser,FK 7.5 BRNO Field Pistol, PSD

Offline ejb1975

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Re: A one-line Made in Czechoslovakia frame oddity...
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2019, 01:48:14 PM »
Psyop96 thanks for taking the time to prepare, compile and share - I really enjoyed reading and following the rationale of how this combination exists.

Of the production scenarios put forward, I too would opt for early 80's frame mated with 1990 parts (maybe the frame was found in an old storage bin!). Your pictures capture hue of the frame, seen on many blued 75's from the early 80's, especially in contrast with the slide and fire controls.

A very interesting piece to have in ones collection - congratulations  :) (well spotted Earl)


I lean towards this type of a possibility.  When trying to figure out what all was going on prior to 1996, we usually overthink what the CZ factory was thinking.  The transitional period makes me think that after every frame was cast they went in a bin and they just reached in to grab and assemble using the oldest small parts they could knowing they were moving away from them, it was really a hodge podge from 92-95.  I discovered something really cool when restoring a 94 that came from the factory with the old style 1hole external spring detent, when reassembling I noticed it was the newer style cast frame for the internal detent and I was able to install that type of safety(which is nice cause they are way easier to deal with).  The one line roll mark you have is just like the roll mark on my 78 short rail, hard to believe one was found that late but nothing would shock me with CZ.


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Offline Psyop96

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Re: A one-line Made in Czechoslovakia frame oddity...
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2019, 03:05:22 PM »
Rdcinhou - I?m on retirement watch [emoji4] so neither collecting nor business these days although have been a long time visitor to these parts and hoping to make it a much longer term stay.


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Offline cwo4uscgret

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Re: A one-line Made in Czechoslovakia frame oddity...
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2019, 02:48:43 AM »
My 1989 dated two line made in Czechoslovakia has the barrel, slide, and frame stamped with matching serial numbers.  It was imported by Mach 1 and I bought it from Aim Surplus - sold as Israeli Police Surplus.  I need to take some better pictures then what I have posted elsewhere; but I just noticed a stamping, a small deeply impressed round mark, on the right front of the trigger guard that for some reason I never saw it before.  Even with a magnifying glass I can?t read it.  Time to put the macro lense on the camera and take a few close ups.  My pistol is marked ?Model 75? and is painted in the thick black paint that almost reminds me of the British Suncorite Paint used on a variety of UK handguns.

Anyone know what the stamp is?

Offline Psyop96

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Re: A one-line Made in Czechoslovakia frame oddity...
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2019, 04:26:37 AM »
That round depression in the right front has the same proof mark (twin-tailed Bohemian lion over an N) found elsewhere on the pistol. Up until 1980, there was just the proof mark. I think around 2008 the proof mark was no longer being stamped in that location although the round depression was still there. Someone with pistols from 2006-2008 can confirm.

Note - this 1980 pre-B has an aftermarket hard chrome finish.



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Offline cwo4uscgret

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Re: A one-line Made in Czechoslovakia frame oddity...
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2019, 06:21:52 AM »
Thanks PSYOPS - one proof mark on the slide (with the two digit date code I knew but the mark on the frame, right side if the trigger guard is not legible even using a magnifying glass!

Offline Blaiwayw

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Re: A one-line Made in Czechoslovakia frame oddity...
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2019, 09:52:54 AM »
Very nice write up on the pre B.  I?ve purchased several Israel surplus CZ?s now available on GB.  I?ve found the pinned front sight, combat trigger guard, round hammer, and lack of a hammer block in several of the CZ 75.  Also  CZ 85, with all the desirable features.  I don?t need the ambi features, but I really like it.  There is a complete disassembly video on YouTube of the CZ PO1, which is pretty much the CZ 85.  Very useful if you decide to refinish.


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Offline Earl Keese

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Re: A one-line Made in Czechoslovakia frame oddity...
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2019, 07:58:03 AM »
Saw this one posted on Facebook today. This one rates fairly high on the oddity scale. Rather unfortunate combo for a transitional.

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Offline Psyop96

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A one-line Made in Czechoslovakia frame oddity...
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2019, 10:08:37 AM »
That looks like a 100% Pre-B upper slide mated to a 100% frame for the future B model of the 90s. If that?s an ?L? on the SN, it?s a ?92 and about the time when the first batch of transitionals appeared.  Edit: I see it now on the FB page; sounds like it?s an European based pistol..around the Balkans?


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« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 10:14:48 AM by Psyop96 »

Offline ejb1975

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A one-line Made in Czechoslovakia frame oddity...
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2019, 10:42:32 AM »
Just an FYI for you transitional guys out there, i discovered while restoring a 94 that had the old style safety that it was the new style frame with casting for the internal safety detent/spring.  I did have to put a new sear cage in to make it work but it made for a complete transition.


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Offline Psyop96

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Re: A one-line Made in Czechoslovakia frame oddity...
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2019, 12:07:05 PM »
That?s a fantastic looking restoration!

Offline ejb1975

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Re: A one-line Made in Czechoslovakia frame oddity...
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2019, 01:06:42 PM »
That?s a fantastic looking restoration!

Thanks


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