Loading 9MM for accuracy

[Wobbly]

I am really watching this thread.....
I had no idea that a different primer or brass would have an effect on accuracy.  I’ve been playing with different projectiles and powders, but must not shoot well enough to tell the difference.

All components contribute, I don't do enough of this type shooting to definitely state in what order.

What most people miss is that the shape and color of the target itself is a huge contributor, and probably falls in the top 3. The human eye needs a highly contrasting dot/circle to focus on. That circle size needs to increase as the distance increases. 2" works great at 15yds, but Joe L seems to be using 8-10" at 100 yds.

[skin]

 I know a guy that develops his loads using a randsom rest and a real expensive cronograph. You can really tell the difference between minute adjustments, like amount of taper crimp, primers ect. He has everything setup for 50 yds. He has a portable reloading setup, so his testing usually last most of the day.

[Joe L]

I have had best luck with a circular or square non-red aim point 2x the dot size.  I use black if the background isn't too dark, but have used yellow or blue against a forest background also.  So, for a Holosun or Ultradot 2 moa red dot, I use 2-3" at 50 yards, 4-6" at 100, and 8-12" at 200.  The other thing I do is not worry about hitting a specific target in the center.  At 50 yards, the 9mm  groups will be slightly below the aim point, like an inch or two, and at 100 yards, they will be 8" or so, and at 200 maybe 44".  Wind becomes a factor at 100 and 200.  I place the aim point above a clean full size bullseye target, take a few sighting shots, see where the group is, cover the group with a fresh target, wherever it needs to go, then go shoot a few more groups.  If the wind changes, I'm off.  I never touch the sight zero, which is typically zeroed for bullseye at 25 yards, single hand.  Going to a two handed grip from a wrist rest will move the group to one side slightly compared to the single hand zero.

And yes, it is possible to shoot a good group at 200 yards with a subcompact CZ P10S.  I've done it.  Once, on a perfect, windless day at 6000 feet above sea level.  Gotta try that again in a few weeks. 

Joe

[MadDuner]

My immediate goal is to get my Scorpion Carbine to shoot 1moa or better at 100yds - suppressed.

[mauserand9mm]

Thank you all for the great information. Several suggestions/techniques are new to me. I'm excited to get started. I checked a recent load I had crono'd for one of my 10MMs - SD was 14. I'm really interested to see how much I can improve upon that. I'll check back to this post in case more responses come in and I'll report back on my results. Thanks again!

Consistency is a good thing but, as others pointed out, not always directly relatable to accuracy. Not sure if it applies to pistols (but don't see why not) but there a thing called the "ladder test". I haven't done it myself but when working up loads you'll find a point where the POI (at a specific distance) will be almost the same for a range of powder charges - this has the potential for the greatest accuracy by reducing the POI/charge sensitivity.

[NMShooter]

Haha, that's really impressive shooting. I'd be impressed with myself if I just got them all on the paper (or some of them). Practice practice. I started reloading around 15 years ago when the 325 Win short mag first came out. Premium ammo for that caliber, at the time, was around 80 dollars a box of 20. "Honey, I can save a lot of money by reloading" is probably the stupidest thing I've ever said. (Well, in the top twenty anyway) It snowballed from there. I've concentrated on rifle mostly, but have come to the point where I like shooting pistols more. Lots of reasons, but the mechanics of pistol shooting have been so challenging for me. Of course rifle is also really challenging. Any of the shooting disciplines are enough to occupy a lifetime.
For rifle, I start with the best brass I can afford, sort it by weight, trim to length, uniform primer pockets, turn case necks, use a bushing die so I have consistent neck tension, fire form, anneal every other firing, etc etc. Now I'm going to turn my attention to making the best pistol ammo I possibly can, and at the same time, try to learn to be a decent shot with a hand gun.
I can see I found the right forum to garner information to help do this. Up until now I've never chamfered pistol cases for instance. Your replies have been excellent. Thank you!

[Joe L]

This is the Joe L video that simply slays me...

video

Target with a 'dinky' sub-$400 P-09.

My son was with me that day, and got to watch me shoot that target.  That was all pre-Sugru, too!!  Look at how much trigger finger insertion I had without the grip and trigger modifications.  Also, in 2014, this was somewhat of a fluke, I couldn't do this very often back then.  Gun was always perfect, and still is.  Shooter still needs work.

Joe 

[Wobbly]

So Joe L,

All your shooting is done with the reloaded Atlanta Arms 115 gr JHP. What info can you glean from that for us ? Does Atlanta Arms use all the same brass ? While the 115gr probably shoots flatter at distance, do you think that's superior to 124gr overall ?

Any other ideas ?  Thanks.

[Joe L]

For a few years I compared the new AA ammo to the reloads and didn't see any difference.  Then AA stopped selling the 115 JHP in a reload version, at least under the AA brand, so I started buying new, and shooting less.   The reloads were mixed brass.   I don't have any experience with 124.  I tried 147 but concluded that I shot the 115 more consistently, probably due to the recoil difference, not sure.  I definitely noted a difference in 115 FMJ and 115 JHP at 100-200 yards. 

So, I'm lazy.  I quit buying anything other than new AA 115 JHP for bullseye and long distance demos and Remington UMC 115 FMJ in buckets to train other folks and for plinking and non-critical drills.  But even Rem UMC 115 seems to have become more consistent over the last couple of years.   

When I shoot now, the last thing I want to do is test ammo.  If I did, I would have to shoot the new ammo and follow it with a "control" test shooting the AA 115 JHP at the same time under the same conditions, to see if I was having a good day or a not-so-good day, before coming to any conclusions on the new ammo.  If I was having an off day, I would have to repeat the test on a good day before reaching any conclusions.  I just don't think there is any room for improvement in performance over the AA 115 JHP.  Might be some less expensive ammo that does just as well, and my hope is that the reloaders can determine how to achieve that. 

At my age, the variables I am willing to study and try to improve are trigger control, eyesight, grip shape, grip strength, and mental approach to shooting.   CZ pistols take the gun off the variable  list, AA ammo takes ammo off the list.  Age and temperament add a lot to the list! 

Speaking of temperament and age, I need to go shoot my .308 bolt rifle and AR-15 before Christmas, just to see if I still can.  I have a video somewhere of a sub 4" group at 547 yards with a .308 Savage rifle from prone that is pretty good.  Not sure I can do that again either.   Best thing about a bolt action rifle is that 40 rounds is a long session! 

[Wobbly]

Thanks for that, Joe.

[NMShooter]

Hi guys, I was able to shoot the CZ yesterday. Had limited success with some practice ammo I had loaded up previously. 115 grain Hornady XTPs, various headstamp, Rem primers, 6.2 grains of AA#7 1.100 OAL. Also had some Berry's 147 grain, various head stamp, Rem primers, 6.0 grain AA#7, 1.165 OAL. I was getting them all on a paper plate at 25 yards but groups were nothing to write home about.
After reading all of the suggestions in this post, I loaded a ladder using Starline brass minimum bell and crimp, CCI small pistol magnum primers (picked up at the store by mistake, didn't want magnum primers, but can't take them back so I figured I might as well use them). Saw no adverse effects. Used 147 grain Berry's round nose, Titegroup powder, load range 3.2-3.6 grains (Hogdon data). I didn't crono, it was rainy off and on. Shot 4, 11 round groups - 3.2 grains, 3.4 grains, 3.6 grains and 3.7 grains. Did the plunk test to determine OAL, ended up setting OAL at 1.175. I was up against the lands at 1.88". All of the groups were better than the practice ammo, with the 3.6 grain load coming in at 2.29" at 25 yards off a rest.
I have AA#7, Titegroup, Power Pistol, Blue Dot, Unique powders on hand, CCI and Rem primers. Starline brass. 147 grain Dots, 124 grain XTPs, Nosler 115 grain HP bullets. If any of you have any suggestions with any combinations of those components or something close, I'd sure like to read them. BTW, the TSO was awesome, not one hiccup, and far more accurate than I'm able to take advantage of. Thanks, John

[MadDuner]

Hi guys, I was able to shoot the CZ yesterday. Had limited success with some practice ammo I had loaded up previously. 115 grain Hornady XTPs, various headstamp, Rem primers, 6.2 grains of AA#7 1.100 OAL. Also had some Berry's 147 grain, various head stamp, Rem primers, 6.0 grain AA#7, 1.165 OAL. I was getting them all on a paper plate at 25 yards but groups were nothing to write home about.
After reading all of the suggestions in this post, I loaded a ladder using Starline brass minimum bell and crimp, CCI small pistol magnum primers (picked up at the store by mistake, didn't want magnum primers, but can't take them back so I figured I might as well use them). Saw no adverse effects. Used 147 grain Berry's round nose, Titegroup powder, load range 3.2-3.6 grains (Hogdon data). I didn't crono, it was rainy off and on. Shot 4, 11 round groups - 3.2 grains, 3.4 grains, 3.6 grains and 3.7 grains. Did the plunk test to determine OAL, ended up setting OAL at 1.175. I was up against the lands at 1.88". All of the groups were better than the practice ammo, with the 3.6 grain load coming in at 2.29" at 25 yards off a rest.
I have AA#7, Titegroup, Power Pistol, Blue Dot, Unique powders on hand, CCI and Rem primers. Starline brass. 147 grain Dots, 124 grain XTPs, Nosler 115 grain HP bullets. If any of you have any suggestions with any combinations of those components or something close, I'd sure like to read them. BTW, the TSO was awesome, not one hiccup, and far more accurate than I'm able to take advantage of. Thanks, John

Thanks for the info and report!

I loaded almost the same thing and tested it over the weekend also.
147gr Berry’s RN, with 3.2 to 3.5 of TiteGroup in my batches, with OAL of 1.145 and Remington Small Pistol primers.  This produced the best groups through my Scorpion at 100 yds from a bench, besting the factory ammo.  It was still 2MOA, but shows great promise.  I saw no difference in groups between 3.2 and 3.5gr.  The next time out I will use all the same headstamp brass, and hope for less wind.  I know I am right up to sonic speed through a 16” barrel, so most likely won’t load for faster.

I will however also load and test some more 147’s with Unique also.

[George16]

If you can with the 147 Gr bullets, load them shorter than your current OAL of 1.165”. My TSO and shadow 2 are more accurate at shorter OALs at 1.125” for PD JHP compared to 1.130-1.135 using either win 231, sport pistol or CFE pistol.

When I experimented with 147 Gr RMR RNFP bullets. I had to load them to 1.101”-1.104” using 3.45 Gr of Sport Pistol.

Here’s the chronograph data for the most accurate 5 shot group using the 147 Gr RNFP.
HI - 874
LO -  864
AVG - 867
ES - 10
SD - 4
PF - 126.44
OAL - 1.101-1.104"