Berrys 147 gr OAL in SP-01

[DesertRatR]

If you're shooting Berry's 147 gr PRN (#47636) in an SP-01 Shadow, I'd be curious to know what OAL and taper folks like?

[Fuzzy Sights]

This really very barrel dependent.  Use the plunk test to find where the round fully chambers, measure that and drop it another .005 inches at least.  Think Woovley recommends .010.  If you have multiple 9mm barrels you might shoot it from you will need to check them all.

Just finished a several thousand round run and two of my 9mm can not use the ammo.  Quite frustrating.  My fault as I did not check.

JW

[DesertRatR]

Here's why I'm asking.

With the Berry's 147 gr PRN in my barrel the max OAL is about 1.185", give or take (round won't plunk / spin). I loaded up 25 with OAL 1.139 +/-0.002 with taper at 0.376 +0.001/0.000 and headed out to range with chrono. I load a mag with 10 rounds then 10 rounds then 5 rounds for chrono work, always shooting 25. Just what I do. Gun shot fine. A buddy who shoots the Berry's 147 in matches mentioned he sets his OAL about 1.150 in his Shadow. So I loaded up 25 at 1.152 +0.000/-0.002 with same taper. Same mag. I had a lot of problems with the slide not closing, hanging open maybe 1/2 inch or so with the round not quite into the chamber. Pull the slide back slightly and the round would fully chamber and the slide go into battery. Maybe half the rounds had this problem. So I loaded up 25 more back at 1.138 and same taper and back to range, different mag. I didn't shoot any because the slide was hanging, same problem. I went home and cleaned the barrel thoroughly. Back at the range same problem (didn't shoot any). I asked one of the really experienced guys there and he took a look. Basically he (and I) could feel the round as the slide went into battery after hanging and pulling back the slide and letting it go forward slowly. He recommend reducing the taper a hair. I reset the taper to 0.373+/-0.001. I also measured the diameter about a tenth or so back of the mouth and found the same average diameter. Also there was no visual evidence of any bulging. Back to the range today. First mag shot just fine. Second load the first three rounds hung up (didn't shoot, just checked feed). I downloaded the mag and reloaded, banging it on the bench. Then the 10 shot fine. Last 5 rounds also shot fine. The bottom line is my OAL testing was way below the max OAL. I don't think that should be a problem, but I don't know that. Which is why I am asking the smart guys.

BTW, after the rounds hung and I ejected I could see what looked like scuff marks on the copper near the nose, on a couple of rounds, like maybe the nose is hitting the top of the chamber. Wouldn't that argue for shorter OAL?

BTW this gun is my first 9 mm. I've been loading 45 ACP for years, in a lot of barrels. Got over that learning curve long ago. This gun has maybe 2000 shots thru it. The first 500 were factory. Then maybe 500 of Wobley's recommended 38 Super loads (I could get those quick). I just finished up 1000 of RMR's 147 gr PFP. Now I am into the Berry's. With the factory, 38 Super and RMR I had no feeding problems. The taper was always 0.376 for the RMR (can't recall for the 38 Super). The gun and loads worked perfectly for those 2000 rounds.

Maybe the problem is the mags?

Sorry for the long winded discourse.

[Clint007]

Just sent you an email.  What recoil spring weight are you running? By the way your taper is too tight, you are prolly digging into the plating.  I'd back off to .377-.379, basically until it fits in your chamber and/or QA gauge tray reliably.

Did you correctly say (in your email to me) that the second batch (when the problems started) was 3.0 TG at 1.150" with the 147gr.   Whereas the ok functioning batch was 3.2-3.3 TG?  So there were TWO variables here, both PF and OAL?

If you are running a spring heavier than 10lb, that might be the issue. Sounds like the rounds chamber fine. The issue is the gun isn't cycling right with that reduced load.  I use a 9lb spring with my load, and I'm sure I'm hammering my slide stop more than is ideal, but that gives me the 100% reliability and the least amount of 'nose dip' at the end of the cycle.  I put in a new slide stop for important matches...

I put more in my email to you, but wanted to post here too so everyone can chime in.

147s are definitely more temperamental to work with in 9mm c/w 124 and 115. The tapered 9mm case coupled with short leades in CZ make the OAL "window" pretty tight and unforgiving. Once you find the sweet spot, you are generally fine, but this is where slight variances in ogive can make one vendor's 147 gr work and anothers won't. That's uncommon with 115-124 gr bullets in 9mm.   For example, TJ Conavera has this 147 gr hollow point that I bought once that I still have gathering dust, because I CANNOT find any OAL that works in my CZs. It's either too long for the rifling, or it causes a bulging waist. So I'll use it in other 9mm guns....when I start shooting any.

I experimented with various spring weights as I developed IDPA loads to be around 128-130 PF.  9-10lb is what I came up with for my SP01 Shadows. YMMV.

C

[Wobbly]

A buddy who shoots the Berry's 147 in matches mentioned he sets his OAL about 1.150 in his Shadow. So I loaded up 25 at 1.152 +0.000/-0.002 with same taper. Same mag. I had a lot of problems with the slide not closing, hanging open maybe 1/2 inch or so with the round not quite into the chamber.

I reviewed your posts. Last August you were following the instructions from How to Determine Max OAL for a CZ Pistol and everything was working. Now, you have regressed to believing that you can simply take another person's guesses on how to load your pistol. What happened ?

But first, you also need to read the lesson on Taper Crimp. You took a perfect TC setting and tightened it to 0.373" and are now most likely buckling some of the cases to where they don't fit the chamber. And this again is based on another person's guesses.

The leaders here published 2 very nice articles. Even spent time making graphics the clarify them. And we review the wording every 6 months to insure that the instructions are abundantly clear. The tolerances involved are smaller than a human hair. What did you expect to happen when the instructions aren't followed ?

Maybe the problem is the mags? 

My guess is that more guessing will not get you out of a predicament caused by guessing.

[Fuzzy Sights]

DestertRatR,

Just because your friends CZ has a chamber that accommodates a longer OAL does not mean that yours will.  You also changed two variables at the same time, making it hard to determine what the issue is.  The first question is did you plunk test the longer ammo?  If it is failing that then you will need to go back to the OAL that worked.  Also you dropped the powder charge.  Both of these actions will drop your pressure and it is likely that your slide is not going all the way back and thus not picking up enough spring tension to fully seat the round.  As suggested by Clint007 a lighter recoil spring may be in order.

Also agree your crimp is too tight.  If you pull your bullets you will see a deep ring that may be through the plating. If so your barrel will lead and accuracy will eventually suffer.

Humble recommendations:

Check Plunk test on new OAL. If passes load up with original charge and test. You may have to bump it up a tenth of a grain or so.
If it fails the plunk test then you go back to your original OAL and try the reduced load and test. Would load a few up with original load and compare. 

Good luck on the project.  Don't be discouraged all reloaders go through this. Every gun is a law unto itself.

JW

[DesertRatR]

I have read Wobbly's OAL tutorials. All of them. Multiple times. They are pretty instructive. The OAL method didn't work well for me. I figure OAL out using trial and error.

For a particular ogive I seat several inert rounds going in about 10 mil increments in OAL. I'll drop them in the barrel checking for plunk and freely spinning. Eventually I get one that won't spin/plunk. So now I know max OAL is between those two numbers, within 10 mil. I seat more inerts going in 2-3 mil increments longer than the round that plunks/spins. I drop them in the barrel until I hit the one that won't freely spin/plunk. Just to check I paint the end of the 2 bullets (the one that won't plunk/spin and the next shorter that will) with magic marker. The witness marks confirm I have one round that is hitting the lands and one that isn't and that is 2-3 mil or less shorter than the length to the lands. The one that will spin/plunk is the max OAL (within 2-3 mil or less), not the max safe OAL. For the Berry's 147 PRN in my barrel the max OAL is about 1.185". Backing off the 15 mil Wobbly recommends the max safe OAL is about 1.170".

[Earl Keese]

"He recommend reducing the taper a hair. I reset the taper to 0.373+/-0.001."

DesertRatR- going from .376 to .373 isn't reducing the taper. You increased the amount of taper.

You say your method for determining OAL is trial and error, how did you get to 1.139 from your tested max OAL of 1.185? If 1.139(lets say 1.14) worked, why go to 1.15 and lower the charge weight? I don't recognize any process here at all, maybe you should take a step back and familiarize yourself with correct specs for this cartridge.
FWIW, most of reloading isn't open to individual interpretation. Also, Titegroup and heavy for caliber bullets aren't a safe combination for the inexperienced.

[Fuzzy Sights]

Agree with Earl.  Tightgroup is a spiky and temperature sensitive powder.  Not really good for heavy for caliber bullets.  Better for light target loads with light to normal bullet weights for caliber.  Have had this powder gives some really strange velocity readings when doing load testing.  More than one occasion have had spikes in velocity (150fps) and the very rapid appearance of pressure signs in 9mm, with only 0.2gr increase, using a 140 gr coated bullet.

Much prefer VV powders (330 and 340). No matter what the temp they are much more predictable.

Hope this helps.

JW

[IDescribe]

(1) You are WAY over-crimped.  Anyone who tells you simply to crimp more to solve a feeding problem isn't someone to take advice from.  And anyone who talks to you about crimping without talking actual measurements isn't someone to listen to.

(2) Some bullet / gun combos have an OAL that is technically neither too long nor too short where the bullet occasionally will jam on the barrel hood during feeding.  The solution is to lengthen or shorten.  One case I had with a Blue Bullet 125gr RN, a difference of .01 longer or short eliminated the issue completely.

(3) Some times the extractor isn't moving as freely as it should and will restrict the freedom of the cartridge to twist around as it would like while feeding, causing a feeding jam.  The solution it to remove the extractor, clean it and everything it touches, lube it, and reinstall it.


If I were in your shoes, I would:

Remove, clean, and re-lube my extractor
Adjust taper-crimp to .377 or .378 for the time being, then go back to it later, re-read, and determine optimum from scratch (or leave it alone at .377 or .378 -- it won't make a difference)
Recognize the OAL anyone else loads at is irrelevant to me
Determine my maximum OAL by a method opposite of yours:  Size a case, no primer, no powder, seat a bullet too long, then seat shorter and shorter until it plunks and spins freely.  If your adjustments to seat deeper are incrementally small enough, it will literally go from doesn't spin, to spins with a lot of drag, to spin with a little drag, to spins with a hair of drag, to spins with no drag, and THAT is your MAX OAL.  Then load shorter than that.

ALSO -- Plated bullets are only a hair cheaper than jacketed while being of lower quality.  And plated bullets are not even of the quality of good coated lead while being more expensive, so consider a switch to coated or jacketed.    And while I am on my soapbox -- 147gr bullets are not getting you the advantages that action shooting "wisdom" would have you believe, so consider a drop to 124/125gr.  Easiest path you can take is jacketed 124gr.  Coated lead takes a little more doing, but no more than the plated you are already working with, and you are likely to get better accuracy for less money, AND they look cooler. 

 

[DesertRatR]

To wrap this up .....

With the Berry's 147 gr PRN I am at 1.153+/-0.002 OAL and 0.377-0.378 taper on top of 3.27 gr TG. I chrono'd 25 and got average MV 917 fps, SD 11, ES 48.

I loaded up 200 and shot hundred or so at a match the other day. The gun/loads were flawless, no problems of any kind. The rest I shot yesterday just practicing. Again, no feeding problems. Time to declare victory.

BTW, with my equipment those variations are about as good as I can consistently do, irrespective of the caliber. With every batch I plunk each round (I don't have an ammo plant, typically load 200-300 at a time), and measure OAL and taper of 20 random draws from the batch. I use a spreadhseet template so its quick. And no matter what powder I've loaded I always set up a light over the seater station and visibly look into the charged case before I set the bullet. Periodically I grab a random case and dump the contents onto the scale just to verify the powder drop is still right.