Author Topic: CZ P07 upgrading experience and tip by a novice owner  (Read 1234 times)

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Offline Larry F

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CZ P07 upgrading experience and tip by a novice owner
« on: May 15, 2023, 10:29:57 PM »
I acquired a CZ P07 pistol last fall.  Having reached the point I’m comfortable using it for Carry, I thought my challenges and solutions might be of some value to others.  CZ’s are new to me, but I’ve reworked  Glock, folded slide Sig, and striker fired Walther pistols, and thought I knew what I was getting into.
 
The pistol is a first generation CZ P07 Duty .40 caliber model.  Initially, I had to address commonly known but new to me 1st gen flaws (frame bulge, trigger bar spring dislocating, and sticking magazines) which entailed replacing the front frame insert with a newer version eliminating the slide stop spring to frame interface, using low heat and pressing the frame back into shape then clamping it overnight, deepening the spring seating channel in the trigger bar plus lowering the spring tension, and, flattening the sides of the magazine where the coating showed scuffing and was sticking.  These fixes have held for several months now.

Action changes addressed reducing  a heavy and sometimes quirky feeling double action trigger pull weight, increasing the very light rolling single action trigger pull weight, simplifying the cumbersome uncaptured recoil spring installation, a sharply curved trigger shoe, and a plastic grip feel.  I initially researched the forum, polished the action parts, installed a CGW slide kit, and cycled thru multiple main spring and sear spring combinations (5 main springs and 7 sear springs) to come up with a lighter DA pull (7.25# vs an initial 10+#) and firm enough SA trigger press (4.25# vs an initial 3#)  combination that I felt would be good for carry.  I also found the hammer and sear surfaces had about 70% engagement due to the sear having a canted face.  I removed the cant by stoning the face and kept the leading edge sharp.  The stoning did change the action’s timing and amplified the quirky trigger action and required replacing the DA roller to retime it.  I also replaced the trigger shoe and added a solid metal guide rod and drilled a cross hole in it to wind the spring onto the guide before installing.   

The DA trigger pull worked OK and the SA press was heavy enough but had much more creep than my Sig pistol.  I switched to the CGW hammer and it eliminated a good portion of the felt SA creep although the rolling sear release  is unchanged.  The change also reduced both the DA and SA pulls by .5#.  I knew initially that the OEM SA trigger was safe but the very light rolling press felt too close to a hair trigger to trust myself using it in a high tension self defense situation.  The action is now as good as I know how to make it for a carry gun.


Probably to be expected, the felt recoil of full power 165gr and 180gr ammunition is a handful in this size pistol.  The relaxed OEM recoil spring caused  spent cartridges to eject over 20 ft.  Reducing it required a 20# Glock 19 flat wire spring.  The result being a stout felt recoil that affects  getting back on target quickly for follow-up shots.  My shot cadence isn't up to par with my 9mm pistols and the pistol is not as effective as a carry gun as I initially hoped. 

I threw caution to the wind and acquired a 9mm CZ P07 Parts Kit from a Gunblaster outlet.  The kit included a complete slide assembly plus all the frame parts excluding the bare frame which had been destroyed.  I Cagunized the slide and have interchanged some of the frame parts to reduce trigger pre-travel and reset distance a bit - part tolerances commonly vary between individual CZ guns and cause a  big variation in how the actions feel.  The 9mm makeover makes the pistol a little less accurate the 40 version off a bench but much easier to control off hand.  I declared the pistol good to go for carry and have put it into use.

My advice to anyone considering purchasing or upgrading a P07/P09 pistol is to look before you leap; research the forums before you commit, don’t by online if you can avoid it, and, lastly be aware that I didn’t have much initial out of pocket cost for a used gun but spent the cost of a new pistol upgrading it.  Buying new can entail doubling the end cost if you go all in on upgrading.
 

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: CZ P07 upgrading experience and tip by a novice owner
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2023, 08:58:37 AM »
Wow.  My DUTY P07 .40 goes out the door on my hip every time I drive somewhere.

I always heard (here) that the P07 and P09 pistols trigger pull was all over the place.  Mine was 3&1/4 lbs. SA and around 8&1/2 lbs. DA right out of the box.  After several years an the installation of CGW reduced power trigger return and firing pin block springs it's a bit less now.

I didn't like that original recoil spring set up either.  I ordered a newer (2nd gen) P07 .40 captured recoil spring assembly and had to drill out the guide rod hole in the front of the slide just a little to clearance the larger diameter spring guide.  No issues since.

The trigger fit me fine.  In fact, I had issues with trigger bite on the P09 .40 and replaced it with an older DUTY style P07 trigger and cured that (different fingers, different placement on the trigger I suppose).

I never found my P07 DUTY to be very accurate with 180 grain bullets.  It does really well with 135 grain Nosler hollow points and 140 grain lead from Missouri Bullet Co.

I too bought a 9MM slide assembly (got it from CZ USA, I think, not long after I bought the pistol).  The 9MM slide/barrel never shot as well for me at the .40 and I seldom used it.  Just put it and the single magazine that came with it away for "some day."

Got a bunch more money in mine, too.  Milled for a Trijicon RMR and ceracoted with new rear sight location milled into the slide, too and the the new back up sights installed.  Bought a Holosun for it a few months back when the tritium in the RMRs died and Trijicon failed to address the problems when I sent both my old RMRs back to them for repairs/replacement of the tritium.  My old P09 also runs a Holosun now, too.

Why did you replace the front frame insert?  Did it break?  Was that why the frame bulged?  Mine has a very small amount of separation between the insert and the frame (on the right side I think) but it's not gotten any larger in 10 or 12 years so I only notice it when cleaning the pistol.

I ended up doing something similar to what you did on your P07 with an old Pre CZ85.  By the time I replaced the springs, the pitted barrel, the damaged (front mostly) sights and got it refinished it cost me as much as the pistol did to start with.  Did that once.  Don't figure I'll do it again.
I just keep wasting time and money on other brands trying to find/make one shoot like my P07 and P09.  What is wrong with me?

Offline Larry F

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Re: CZ P07 upgrading experience and tip by a novice owner
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2023, 02:11:05 PM »
The short right angle leg of the slide stop spring was about out of the collar in the side of the frame and cocked against the frame -  caused the bulge.  The newer insert trimmed the leg off at the back of the insert and is a drop in replacement.  The slight separation you mention came back immediately but hasn't increased over about 6 months use.

My problem with the 40 caliber setup is using it enough to get used to the felt recoil.  It is quite a bit less with the used OEM recoil spring and an 18# recoil springs but both eject cartridges over 20 ft.  The heavier Glock 19 spring is probably a true 20# spring as it has 1/8" more compression in a P07 and cuts the recoil to 12 ft but does increase the felt recoil quite a bit.

Initial DA was 10++# and SA was 3#.  I tried 11.5, 12,13,14, and 15# main spring with 2 blue, 3 natural, and three red sear springs.  The results range from 9# DA and 4.5# SA to 5.75# DA and 2.5# SA.  Just picked a middle of the road setting - Starting with a 13# mainspring and a natural sear spring would probably be good enough for most people.  I tried all the different sear springs after I found about a 1/4# difference between 2 like springs - the red spring SA ranged between 3.5 and 3.75# with the CGW hammer and 4.25 to 3.75# with the OEM hammer.

The CGW hammer reduced a lot of creep but the OEM hammer works ok - I got hooked and just went the extra mile with all the testing.  But I did figure out how to disassemble the Decocker but am still struggling getting it back together like you see in the videos.

I also tried first and 2 generation hammer and sear combinations - because they came with the slide assembly - didn't see much difference.   

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: CZ P07 upgrading experience and tip by a novice owner
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2023, 05:13:18 PM »
Some of the more experienced members here have said changing hammer springs really doesn't affect SA trigger pull (reduce it) like it will DA trigger pull.

Some have mentioned that a heavier hammer spring can actually make the SA trigger pull a little crisper feeling.

I have shot a very little 180 grain in mine.  Mostly the 135 grain Noslers sitting on a compressed powder charge of Blue Dot.  I do know the 135 grain Nosler's and Blue Dot remind me a lot of a 4" .357 magnum with 125 grain hollow points.  And yeah, I learned to snuggle up to the screens between the benches at the pistol range so my brass bounces off the screen, not off the roof and then out the side of overhead cover 15 or so feet away.

The .40 P07 was better out of the box than the P09, but only a little (enough I could tell).  The .40 P09 is worse (enough to tell).  The 9MM P07 was bad enough I did the same thing you did and bought a new hammer, from CZ Custom I think.  Made the 9MM P07 better but still not as good as the old Duty P07 .40.  Just got luck with the notch/cut on that old P07.

Good luck with the old P07.  Mine pretty much ruined me.  I have a hope.  I sure would like to get my new M&P 2.0 .40 Performance Center gun to shoot like my P07 does.

The P07 .40 can routinely do this with the Nosler 135's.  Best 5 shot group I've got a picture of.  12 yds. off hand.



I've only had the new M&P to the range once with a limited number of ammo types (3).  This is the best I got with it at 7 yds. off hand.  I want better, much better.  Like I said, the P07 spoiled me.



I "found" a load that made another M&P 2.0 (9MM) shoot way better than it had been shooting.  Hoping the .40 will get there with the right load.

Good luck and keep shooting.
I just keep wasting time and money on other brands trying to find/make one shoot like my P07 and P09.  What is wrong with me?

Offline Larry F

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Re: CZ P07 upgrading experience and tip by a novice owner
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2023, 08:48:45 PM »
I agree with the mainspring weight not affecting SA trigger pull weight much.  First SA reduction I found came after part polishing and slide work - SA trigger pull dropped from 3# (before I did anything) down to 2.75# using a new factory sear spring (Not a CGW sear spring).  Almost all the SA trigger pull variations after that came from switching sear springs.

The pistol came with a quality set of adjustable sights which helps bench shooting accuracy being as good as my 9mm Sig and Walther pistols.

The real killer with 40 caliber felt recoil came from using 165gr ammunition - 180gr ammo was quite a bit milder in my mind.  I think most of my problems are expecting the shock and flinching.  I haven't given up and ran across the 9mm kit by chance rather than intentionally.  Off hand I can get close to your group but at 7 yds using 165 gr AE FMJ - grouping scatters after 10 yds and is bad at 20 yds.  I'm stuck with the 165 gr ammo for a while because I put in a good stock of AE FMJ and HST/PDX1 JHP and only 100 rds of 180 gr WWB.   

 

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: CZ P07 upgrading experience and tip by a novice owner
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2023, 08:13:24 AM »
A worse group could be the ammo.

Really, all ammo is not equal in all guns.

That load with the Nosler 135 grain hollow points in my CZs doesn't shoot worth a darn in my FNS .40's and M&P .40's.

The best load I found for the FNS pistols (out of my reloads, Federal, Remington and Winchester factory ammo) was Winchester 180 grain hollow points.  The Win. hollow points shot better than the Winchester 180 grain FMJ. 

The 9MM reloads (115 grain PD and Blue Dot) shoots great in my CZ 9MM and M&P Shield 9MM pistols.  It's not the best ammo for the M&P full sized pistols or the SIG 9MM.  The SIG shoots some 115 grain Berry's bullets with Green Dot powder better than anything else I've tried in it.  The full size M&P shoot Winchester 124 grain FMJ NATO ammo better than anything else.  Did get an awesome group from a different brand of 115 grain hollow point and Blue Dot powder from an older 1.0 5" M&P 9MM awhile back but have not had the opportunity to work on/chase after that.

The point is, it may not be you or the pistol.  It may be the ammo.  The FNS pistols had bullet weights from 135 grains to 180 grains (155's, 165, 140) and FMJ, hollow points and lead/coated lead tried.  The Wincester 180's in the Long Slide FNS .40 aren't too bad.

Even if you can't find/buy a bunch now, do it when you can.  You might find something that really makes the pistol shine - and make you look good.
I just keep wasting time and money on other brands trying to find/make one shoot like my P07 and P09.  What is wrong with me?