Author Topic: Do CZs Require a Break in Period and FTE Question  (Read 2966 times)

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Offline SASDesertRat

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Do CZs Require a Break in Period and FTE Question
« on: October 18, 2008, 06:34:20 PM »
My buddy took out his NIB 9mm CZ75B today. He cleaned and lubed it and replaced the plastic guide rod with a stainless steel Bedair guide rod before firing. He had one failure to extract (FTE) which subsequently caused a failure to feed when the next round in the mag jammed against the empty shell in the chamber. The problem occurred with Winchester FMJ. The empty shell had to be pushed out with a cleaning rod because it was snugly lodged in the chamber.

He fired about 350 rounds of Winchester and Remington FMJ with only that one FTE.

Two questions come to mind:

Does CZ recommend a break in period for their NIB pistols? In other words, should he write off the FTE as a break in issue.

If it's not a break in issue, what could've caused the FTE?

Offline freedomsmith

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Re: Do CZs Require a Break in Period and FTE Question
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2008, 08:57:09 PM »
It has been my experience that a lot of my pistols have had a malfunction or few when they were new. But with more use they seem to "break in" or become more reliable as the round count goes up. Perhaps the tolerances and burrs just get worn in to the point that the gun smooths itself out. Just keep shooting and see if it gets better or worsens. Hopefully you won't have any more problems.

Offline brokenarrowjbe

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Re: Do CZs Require a Break in Period and FTE Question
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2008, 09:41:10 PM »
I would consider it a break in issue. If you think it is worth looking into, check the extractor and see if it is fouling and gritty. I think they need 500 rounds to "break in" but could be less. My wife's PCR did that a few times but my buddy was "limp wristing" it. He was used to shooting a .25. the recoil was different. Was only with remington 8.00 a box FMJ ammo from Dicks. The JHP worked fine. After I showed him the reason, it never did it again. Good luck, John

Offline SASDesertRat

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Re: Do CZs Require a Break in Period and FTE Question
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2008, 08:51:41 PM »
Today was the second day out on the range with my buddy and his CZ.  He only had one failure to eject.  I'm pretty sure he was limp wristing.  But one failure out of 300 or so rounds is pretty decent by my book. 

Offline BCRider

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Re: Do CZs Require a Break in Period and FTE Question
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2008, 01:58:08 AM »
I'm new to shooting but from what I've seen of my own CZ Shadow it does seem to be a break in issue.  I had two or three FTE's in the first 300 rounds.  I also noticed during that first day of shooting that the cases were very lazy in leaving the gun.  Many landed on my forearms and the general arc of travel seemed to be back towards my head.  The second day out that brought the round count to 450 (shot some other guns as well) worked out much better with no FTE's and while not an energetic case extraction at least the cases were not dribbling out of the gun.  Today I got another 200 through it and the cases are now flying out with a decently healthy vigor and more to the side and rear instead of towards my head.

So from this I'd have to say that the guns do go through a break in period.
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Offline twoguns

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Re: Do CZs Require a Break in Period and FTE Question
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2008, 02:41:20 AM »
Howdy folks,

Since you are asking for opinions/experiences, I will share mine with you.  First, I think it simply depends on the individual pistol, rather than a particular brand primarily. 

I have owned some pistols that clearly stated in their manual that a break-in period was required.  One example of this is a Karh K series.  However, I fired my Kahr and never had the first malfunction from its first round to present.

My experiences with my CZ pistols have been the same, as I have fired all of them, and have never had a malfunction - when I was firing them.  But I did allow a fellow shooter to fire 3 of my pistols on our first outing together (two CZs and an FH HP), and noted he had the same malfunction you initially described with each of mine.  These were the first malfunctions for each pistol.  But as a 3.5+ decade police firearms instructor, I could clearly see that he had limped wristed with each pistol, and this had caused each malfunction.

I also watched him then fire two of his personal pistols, and noted he had the same type of limp wrist induced double feed malfunction with each of his own guns as well.  I later discovered that he suffers from a bad case of carpal tunnel in his wrists.

My understanding of the basic design of most pistols is that they need the full force of the recoil power to function as designed.  When a shooter allows his wrists to absorb any of this energy, any pistol can and often will malfunction.

Now I am certainly not trying to imply that any shooter who experiences a double feed malfunction has clearly limp wristed.  You also mentioned that your friend was using Winchester FMJ at the time.  You did not specify if it was white box or value pack ammo.  I have often read on various sites, where lots of various company's ammo (Winchester and Remington value packs are two examples) that do not meet all quality control specs, are then sold as value pack ammo at a reduced price.  Given the fact you normally obtain 100 rounds or 50 at a reduced price, it is a bargain.  But I think the round is specifically intended to be only a practice round too.  This is not an attempt to "trash" any company's value pack ammo.  Just an observation that it is possible the double feed malfunction could have been caused by a round that was perhaps a bit under-powered too.

You asked for possible explanations for what could be the cause of these two malfunctions, and I am simply trying to suggest some possible ones.  If you consider yourself a more consistent or stronger shooter (technique-wise) than your buddy, and if his malfunctions seem to continue on in the future, you might consider doing a range session with his pistol for him too.  If you are certain you do not limp wrist, and your session fails to produce a malfunction - then you probably have eliminated one possible reason.  If he then continues to have a rare malfunction, it may need more "break-in" or an inspection by someone for parts issues.     

Hope this might help a bit anyway sir.

twoguns
« Last Edit: November 09, 2008, 02:51:30 AM by twoguns »

Offline elsolo

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Re: Do CZs Require a Break in Period and FTE Question
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2008, 10:03:18 AM »
The frequency of FTF's and FTE's is often higher during the first few hundred rounds of many pistols.
You might find that ammo other than WWB may be 100% in your CZ as it is now (WWB never was 100% for me)
You might benefit from a lighter recoil spring, say 11#.
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Offline shooterdude

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Re: Do CZs Require a Break in Period and FTE Question
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2008, 10:03:23 PM »
This issue comes up a lot on many gun forums.  Aside from the "break-in" issue which I think is 50% BS, most shooters have never received proper instruction in the use of firearms.

Limp wristing is a popular activity amongst the untrained....you can see it at shooting ranges everyday along with improper stance which accounts for most peoples perception of high recoil and poor accuracy which is usually exacerbated by the "jerk the trigger" trick.

WWB has always been 100% for me in my Beretta 92, CZ-75 and CZ-97.  On a related note, Federal 550 round bulk packs from Walmart for $13.47 have worked in every .22 semi-auto I have ever tried them in as long as those guns were kept clean.

By clean I mean taking the time with a plastic instrument wrapped in a patch and soaked in cleaner to remove the residue from the action, firing pin channel and around the breach face and extractor not just cleaning the barrel.

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Offline shooterdude

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Re: Do CZs Require a Break in Period and FTE Question
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2008, 10:25:29 PM »
....You did not specify if it was white box or value pack ammo.  I have often read on various sites, where lots of various company's ammo (Winchester and Remington value packs are two examples) that do not meet all quality control specs, are then sold as value pack ammo at a reduced price.  Given the fact you normally obtain 100 rounds or 50 at a reduced price, it is a bargain.  But I think the round is specifically intended to be only a practice round too.  This is not an attempt to "trash" any company's value pack ammo.  Just an observation that it is possible the double feed malfunction could have been caused by a round that was perhaps a bit under-powered too.


Bulk pack ammo is not factory seconds.  It is a marketing tactic. 

Manufacturers make millions of rounds per year and if some are suspect then the entire production run is suspect which means the assembly line is out of spec which creates a dangerous situation for the consumer and product liability for the manufacturer.  Ammo factories are run with very high standards and tolerances because they have to be.

If bulk pack is suspect manufacture than how come there is so much for sale?  Does Remington, Winchester, and Federal really produce that much bad product?

I THINK NOT!
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Offline kenbo1776

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Re: Do CZs Require a Break in Period and FTE Question
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2009, 08:07:38 PM »
 Have to agree with Shooterdude on this....I have fired thousands of Win 100 round white box 9mm from Walmart and have had no quality concerns at all. The only FTE I have had has been caused by limpwristing (once ) . Had a Blazer aluminum case FTE but never had any trouble with the Blazer Brass . And it does state on the Win box that it is for target and practice ammo anyway, since it is all hardball ammo , so  hopefully you would not use it in a defensive situation. I have however had a few issues with the "value pack" .22 ammo sold in the 550 round packs. Lots of .22 's seem to be more sensitive than other guns to ammo brands.
 Have heard a gun dealer loudly badmouth the Win generic as "cheap crap with poor quality control " but that was because he didnt carry anything as afforable and he wanted to sell me something that cost twice as much.

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Re: Do CZs Require a Break in Period and FTE Question
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2009, 09:37:01 AM »
Some facts:

1) For whatever reason, CZs do not like Winchester USA bulk pack ammo.  They particularly do not like older lots from about 2002-2004.  These lots used outsourced cases from IMI and other suppliers.  These cases work fine when reloaded with a "normal" 9mm Para load (124 gr., 1150 fps.), but had FTE with the original weaker factory loading (115 gr., 1070 fps.). 

2) CZs are largely hand-finished, and they do miss spots.  It is more common on older pistols from the 1990s, but they occasionally have a noticeable burr or what have you.  I have never found one in a critical area, but many of their pistols do benefit from being shot or buffed. 

3) Quality control on bulk-packed ammo IS inferior.  This is confirmed by even minimal testing.  Bulk-packed Winchester USA and Remington UMC has considerable variation in the charge load.  Pulling bullets and testing against even 50 round count boxes shows variations of 0.8 gr. +/-.  I have never found 50 round boxes of American manufactured ammunition with that much variation. 

4) A lot of bulk-packed ammo is in fact lots of seconds and are marked as such.  The best example are the Speer "Reclassified" bulk- packed Gold Dots. 

5) There is a lot of suspect ammunition on the market today, IMHO.  I bought a bad case of Federal Top Gun 12 ga. shells the other day.  (I'm pretty sure that I'm not limp-wristing my pump.)  The opened crimp made the empties jam on ejection, and they are clearly out of specification.  That was the first "bad" Federal ammo that I have purchased in over 20 years of shotgunning.