Author Topic: Clarification about trigger reset  (Read 1655 times)

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Offline TJNewton

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Clarification about trigger reset
« on: July 01, 2014, 07:49:51 PM »
When doing the Gremlin test, with the bolt in battery I dry fire and hold the trigger back.  With the trigger still held back, I rack the carrier and release it.  The carrier then flies forward and stops about halfway and won't go into battery.  If I let the trigger out and reset it, then the bolt goes into battery and everything is normal.  This happens with both my tabbed and untabbed carriers, the tabbed carrier being held back a bit further due to the extension of the tab.

It seems that pulling the trigger but not letting it out to reset causes the disconnector to stay in the up position, catching the carrier partially in its forward motion and holding it there.  Release and reset the trigger, the disconnector goes down, the carrier is released and allowed to fly forward into battery. 

When firing live rounds, what would happen if the trigger is pulled but is not let back out to reset?  Will the forward force of the carrier would be enough to overcome the disconnector, push it down, and rest the trigger?  Or will the disconnector catch the carrier as in the Gremlin test and stop it halfway in its forward motion?  Or will the returning force of the carrier hit the disconnector and cause damage?   Which is correct?  I know it's poor trigger manipulation, but would it be detrimental to keep the trigger pulled back during live fire? 

Thanks for any insights.

Offline TJNewton

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Re: Clarification about trigger reset
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2014, 08:17:35 PM »
I was thinking that there was no way a shooter could reset the trigger faster than the carrier/bolt going into battery so I did the Gremlin test again, got the carrier hung up, then put some effort behind it and racked the bolt into battery.  It worked fine, and as the way I assume it works when firing.

Sometimes you just have to get things on paper to figure them out.  Kind of like the rule of writing an angry letter and then waiting a day to send it, I should probably wait a day to post these kinds of questions.

Offline RSR

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Re: Clarification about trigger reset
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2014, 09:39:25 PM »
Disconnector catches onto the sear with trigger pulled.  There's friction/resistance anytime the bolt carrier crosses the disconnector, but holding the trigger causes even add'l friction (needing to break sear/disconnector connection in addition to just making the disconnector go down) which makes it more likely to hang up when not moving the bolt carrier at operational force...
« Last Edit: July 03, 2014, 02:48:16 PM by RSR »

Offline CitizenPete

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    • Universal Machine Gun Model 59 (UK Vzor 59)
Re: Clarification about trigger reset
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2014, 06:22:49 AM »
@tjnewton. I think we had a PM about this? I am now convinced...

After recreating this problem and spending way way to much time on it, I now understand what RSR and bone steel and others are saying. For a while I thought I did not need the TAB (bolt carrier side plate), and maybe I don't, if I never do rapid fire box drills, or 1-5 drills, etc.  ...but if I do want to rapid shoot, and manage the trigger depressed, I better get all my VZ58s "tabbed". So here is my feeble attempt to explain:

The following description is without the bolt carrier side plate present (a.k.a. "Tabbed" )... And with the safety set to the Fire position...

The toe bone is connected to the foot bone but the ankle bone may be twisted if the leg bone is moving faster than the knee bone, ahhhhh, OR...
If the disconnector in down, while the trigger is either released or all pressed all the way back, the sear is up (or should be up) to catch the striker. In really simple terms: 1)the disconnector and sear are on a see-saw (disconnector is pushed down, sear goes up...disconnector goes up sear goes down.), 2) the raised sear grabs the sprung striker, 3) the trigger enables the sear to drop down.

When the disconnector is engaged (pushed down) by the bolt carrier traveling forward over it, the disconnector position enables the opposing force supplied via the feather spring to act and push/keep the sear up, thus capturing and holding the nose of the striker firmly so it is not able to travel forward  with the bolt carrier (a.k.a. da "gremlin"). This cycle happens in an approximate time of much less than 1/60th of a second (using ~800 rpm design cadence of the vz58) and is designed/engineered to work (and should always work) while the trigger is either released and fully forward, OR if the trigger is fully pressed back and held in place.  This is a machine gun that was bastardized to semi-auto function -- like an AK, the trigger should be held back, then released to the reset point IMO.

Semi-auto, Closed bolt, one Feather, is the name of my American Indian friend:
The bolt carrier side plate (or the "tab" as many call it) increases both the amount distance of engaged carrier travel over the disconnector-- and therefore the amount of time -- that the disconnector is pushed down (and the sear is up on the see-saw) during the carrier forward travel, thus guaranteeing that the striker nose is stopped and held securely by the sear.

Why da Gremlin comes out with the trigger at the reset point:
What I believe I have observed: When you press the trigger back and then slowly release it to (but NOT past) the trigger reset point (observed by that audible 'click and tactile feel in the trigger finger) the disconnector is now in a slightly forward position and not completely engaged or in the down position and the opposing force of the feather spring on the sear is still partly but not fully engaged. Because the distance (and thus timing)from the point where the sear and striker nose interact, to the point where the un-tabbed carrier engages the disconnector is now changed,  the FCG timing is now vulnerable and the sear may be just low enough at that fraction of a time to miss catching the striker nose which already went past and caught the A train uptown.  In other words: ipso facto bark bark woof woof -- you reset the trigger and press but es gibt keine schiessen.

With 4 VZ58 (CSA and OOW) variants while utilizing an un-tabbed carrier (carrier without the bolt carrier side plate present), in any one of them, this phenomenon can easily be demonstrated any time, at will at the work bench.

References:
http://cz-usa.com/hammer/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/vz-58-military-manual.pdf (look at this!)
p.11 and p.13,14
My own hours of testing and obsessive observation.

So, that probably cleared it right up for you. (NOT!)
I could make a raw video and attempt to demonstrate this if you think it might be more clear.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2014, 06:32:14 AM by CitizenPete »
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The post above is opinion, and I am probably totally wrong, so please pardon me if I offend anyone in any way. I am speaking only for myself and just sharing my thoughts, not trying to start an argument with anyone, and if you disagree with anything I have said, I concede your correct.

Offline TJNewton

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Re: Clarification about trigger reset
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2014, 05:37:01 PM »
Good analysis.  It's clear, but if you have the time to make a video, I'm sure it would be appreciated.