Author Topic: FBI 9MM Justification, FBI Training Division  (Read 6181 times)

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Offline RSR

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FBI 9MM Justification, FBI Training Division
« on: October 05, 2014, 05:14:47 AM »
The FBI is looking to switch from 40 S&W to 9mm.  Click the link below for why (FWIW, I agree 100% with their justifications, and no, in a ball ammo military setting the reasoning does not 100% translate, but the HK 45 Mk23 is a overweight, overengineered boondoggle and the 1911 [just like the DI AR15] requires far more maintenance than can or should be expected in a military field setting...):

Quote
Below is a very interesting read from the FBI Training Division, FBI Academy, Quantico, VA. from a few months ago. This was a PDF file that was sent to me by a coworker. I want to emphasis this is not mine and I did not create it/the content. I simply copied the text and placed it in this format, here on Loose Rounds, so it was easier to see.  It is an executive summary of justification for law enforcement agencies on 9mm for duty carry. If you have followed us here, you know I have been talking about numerous agencies switching back to 9mm over the last few years, as well as the FBI testing for their switch. Great strides in bullet technology have been made in the past decade and 9mm is on the top of its game. With a select few rounds in 9mm, that have been tested for duty carry, 9mm is fast becoming one of the best options for duty carry. ( the authors opinion on 9mm being the best defensive round is his and does not reflect the opinion of all looserounds writers or owners-ED) This goes into some detailed history of testing, common caliber myths and justification for 9mm use over other calibers. The picture below has absolutely nothing to do with the content below. It is  a very old picture that most are familiar with. I put it in to give others a frame of reference, on the type of rounds being discussed below.  Enjoy!
http://looserounds.com/2014/09/21/fbi-9mm-justification-fbi-training-division/
« Last Edit: October 05, 2014, 05:22:22 AM by RSR »

Offline jwc007

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Re: FBI 9MM Justification, FBI Training Division
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2014, 09:19:20 AM »
Isn't it interesting how the "Stopping Power" argument was used to sell .40 S&W handguns to replace those "terrible 9mm's" and how it's now being panned to sell 9mm handguns?  ::)

I will concede the 9mm ammunition of the day was inferior to what's available now, but so was the .40 S&W and .45 ACP ammunition on the same level of Bullet development.

Can you say "Ka-ching"? ( The sound of the Cash Register of a Pistol Vendor )  ;)
"Easy is the path to wisdom for those not blinded by ego." - Yoda


For all of those killed by a 9mm: "Get up! You are not dead! You were shot with a useless cartridge!"

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: FBI 9MM Justification, FBI Training Division
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2014, 01:30:22 PM »
Match grade 1911's may require lots of maintenance.  A "GI" 1911 works just fine, in combat, or at the range.  In the original trials to replace the 1911 the 1911A1 used passed the dust test while the Beretta failed.  Back when the 1911 was first tested/accepted it, and the other contenders, went through all kinds of tests.  They were buried in the dirt for a few days, dug up and shot.  Dropped in the water for a few days, pulled out and shot.  Shot till they got so hot they locked up (you can do that when you have a bunch of privates loading magazines for the officers testing the pistols) and then dunked in a barrel of water to cool them off, reloaded and fired again.

If you've ever carried/used a "GI" 1911 you'll know why.  They are so loose/worn that they rattle like a can of nuts/bolts when you shake one, but it goes bang every time and hits the target just fine, too.

I'm always leery of computer models, off line testing, simulated targets/materials, etc.  I've shot enough deer and groundhogs to know that the same bullets from the same gun can do something completely different/unexpected on the very next animal.  The only testing that matters is real world testing.  Just look at how many new gun designs make it to the market only to be recalled when real world problems show up that were never encountered in the factory trials/testing.
I just keep wasting time and money on other brands trying to find/make one shoot like my P07 and P09.  What is wrong with me?

Offline 1SOW

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Re: FBI 9MM Justification, FBI Training Division
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2014, 07:46:20 PM »
Isn't it interesting how the "Stopping Power" argument was used to sell .40 S&W handguns to replace those "terrible 9mm's" and how it's now being panned to sell 9mm handguns?  ::)

I will concede the 9mm ammunition of the day was inferior to what's available now, but so was the .40 S&W and .45 ACP ammunition on the same level of Bullet development.

Can you say "Ka-ching"? ( The sound of the Cash Register of a Pistol Vendor )  ;)

I agree.
Also, the the effectiveness studies of new firearms and 'ammunition' seems to be directly related to the condition of the Federal Budget surpluses and deficits..

9mm does make sense logically.  Readily available ammo AND weapons world wide -- reduces the need for "special" calibers for military and law enforcement,  allows cross-utilization among the agencies involved,  effective up to a point  AND it's less expensive.   ka---ching in lower case letters.



Offline Smitty79

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Re: FBI 9MM Justification, FBI Training Division
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2014, 08:16:04 PM »
From a combat/defensive standpoint, 9mm is best if you are allowed to use whatever ammo you want to.   More rounds in the gun, easier to put on target quickly.   If you have to use ball ammo (Military), I believe 45 is best.

If I was a cop, I would carry an SP-01 Tactical in 9mm.

For concealed carry, I like a Glock 19 (I might prefer a P-07, but I've never shot one.   I like my Glock)

For pocket carry, a Kahr PM/CM9 (Rami isn't small enough)

For humping in the "boonies" of Afghanistan, I would want a Glock 21.  (Weight counts when you have it on your back.   An M&P 45 might be a fine gun also.   I would avoid a Springfield.   A grip safety is un-needed complexity)
Don't mistake my high post count for knowledge or wisdom.   I just like hearing myself type.

Offline Firemanjones

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Re: FBI 9MM Justification, FBI Training Division
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2014, 05:32:28 AM »
This just makes me happy that I remained with the 9mm platform all these years.
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Living the dream, driving a Fire Engine RETIRED shooting my Guns in FL and the Mountains of NC and visiting family in Mannheim.

mbott

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Re: FBI 9MM Justification, FBI Training Division
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2014, 07:31:30 PM »
Anybody taking bets that they change again in 10 or so years?

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Offline Smitty79

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Re: FBI 9MM Justification, FBI Training Division
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2014, 12:11:19 AM »
Anybody taking bets that they change again in 10 or so years?

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Mike

Yup.   The argument will be if the 10mm laser is better than the 8mm laser because it inflicts deeper bigger burns, or if the 8mm is better because it doesn't empty the power pack as fast.
Don't mistake my high post count for knowledge or wisdom.   I just like hearing myself type.