Magpul VZ58 Magazines

[DanielBoone]

This has probably been done already but I couldn't find a thread on it...  I just e-mailed Magpul and asked if they were open/had plans/would never have plans/even care to consider production/development of a magpul mag for VZ58's.  I'll let you know the reply...

[vblue42]

It's been addressed with them before and the answer was no. Likely to be the answer this time as well. Apparently it can take 100K to start production on a new magazine.

[MariusVZ]

I asked Tapco a while back and they said no interest. Though an email from someone else wouldn't hurt!

[RSR]

I do not understand the interest in a polymer magazine.  There are no issues with durability or feeding reliability of the OEM aluminum alloy mag, and you aren't going to see any weight savings with polymer...

Bear in mind the reason that pmags came into existence for the AR15 is that the 30 round mags are the single biggest cause of weapon malfunctions with that rifle (due to both durability and design issues).

And the reason for pmags and polymer mags for AKs are due to the weight savings (about 1/3rd the weight of steel) -- though Magpuls aren't steel reinforced, which is a critical component of getting polymer mags even remotely close to durability of or original AK steel mags (there are a lot of AK polymer mag durability tests out there)...

Again, we don't have any of these drawbacks with the OEM mags and any polymer mag will inevitably be inferior to OEM from a durability perspective.

[MariusVZ]

I think the big upsides forgot mags are low price and wide availability in 5, 10, and 20 round variants at an affordable price.

[vblue42]

The only reason I would like to see a company start producing mags is so we will always have them. Surplus mags will dry up sooner or later.

[JDA70]

Biggest complaint I heard from people was " the vz.58 uses proprietary magazines."
I have gotten into some pretty heated debates with people saying that and how
it's a ridiculous comment to make but that's the main gripe they have.

One idea is to get someone like Tapco or whatever to make 10 -15 dollar magazines so that
interest would grow in the vz.58 rifle and there would be a steady supply of  USA made magazines .
Most people are just too hung up on the AK47 though. They'll argue to death how it's better then the
AR-15. Then you have to compete with all the AR fans. So good luck trying to get people into a vz.58.

[RSR]

VZ58 aluminum alloy mags are still being made. 

KCI (korea, make a lot of m1 carbine, glock, some AK, etc, mags of varying quality) has made steel (sold in Canada only -- I'm pretty convinced they were military contract and sent to Iraq/Afghanistan with most of the Czech Military surplus when they upgraded to the CZ Bren).   And then there are some folks in the Czech Republic that have polymer mags as well, they've just never been widely made or distributed.

The 922r perspective I do understand.  I just don't think there's enough VZ58s in the US for there to be a more cost effective option even if made out of cheap polymer. 

Refurbished aluminum alloy were available for $15 per mag this past year, you can still buy used mags in a pouch for $21-22 or so a mag.  And new mags in in pouch are available from apex at $100. 

AR mags are sub $10 sometimes on the trouble-prone and much less durable than VZ58 aluminum mags.  Pmags you'll also find sometimes for $10 or so.  They're all polymer.  The best polymer I've seen are the steel reinforced Lancer L5 mags and the Bulgarian Steel Reinforced Waffle mags on the AK side.  Perhaps someone wants to reach out to Lancer? http://www.lancer-systems.com/

I'd guess a smaller company would be more likely to make them, and for me the main benefit of polymer is that you can do either transparent or a viewing window in them for easy round counting.  But that's about the only point I see as a possible gain.  And I'm sure there'd be at least some drawbacks/compromises even then...

[RSR]

Oh, and 30 round AK steel mags run 11-13 oz depending upon the mag.

OEM 30 round VZ58 mags run ~6.5oz.

I threw a Tapco 5.56 Galil 30 rounder on the scale and it's 5.5oz, but a 7.62x39 would be at least a 25% heavier due to bullet dimensions.  So that's 6.9oz, or heavier than OEM for all polymer. 
Online reports for 7.62x39 Tapco AK mags are 7.3 oz.

I threw the cheaper and less durable and lighter 40 round 7.62x39 Bulgarian slabside mag on the scale (it's steel reinforced, flat sided with the bullet images, not waffles) and it comes in at 8.9oz.

And here are some more AK #s:
Mag weights (empty). All mags hold 30 rounds of 7.62x39.
Steel - early "slab sides" (Izhevsk) - 15.25 oz.
Steel - later version w/ ribbed sides (Izhevsk) - 12.25 oz.
Bakelite (Izhevsk) - 8.50 oz.
Bakelite (Tula) - 8.25 oz.
Aluminum (Izhevsk) - 6.75 oz.
Finnish 30rd black plastic - 6.3oz
(from here: http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=4&f=64&t=139120 )

[RSR]

And to AK folks that complain about the mags -- I always reply like a moderate smartass to the effect of "you're right, it's mags are better -- just like everything else about the VZ58."

Bottom line, the VZ58 was 50+ years ahead of the curve insofar as where small arms design has ended up.  And if they had been able to talk the Soviets out of forcing them to standardize w/ 7.62x39, these rifles would instead be shooting the Czech 7.62x45 vz52 cartridge, which is ballistically similar to the 6.8 SPC. 
So had they succeeded in keeping the 7.62x45 cartridge, we'd be able to categorically say the VZ58 was 75+ years ahead of every other adopted small arms weapon system (we'll see when the US/NATO finally gets around to a genuine general purpose cartridge, so that 75+ clock might keep ticking).  Instead, we can just claim ~50 years ahead...

[RSR]

Back to my original point though -- the reason mags are such a big deal with ARs and online tacticool community is that the original 30 round AR mags didn't work reliably (the gun was designed around a 20 round flat, no curve, box mag).  Pmags made it so that the biggest source of malfunctions on ARs were no longer mag related (and their anti-tilt followers in the aluminum GI mags helped too -- how much "research" money did our government spend to nearly but not completely copy these???).

Then it went back to/became Stoner's orginal DI design...  Which is why all the short stroke piston ARs, SCARs, etc, (VZ58 is short stroke) are coming onto the market. 

And while all the AR15 diehards are accusing you of insulting the weapon/stoner -- just point them to his refined AR design, the AR18 (AR15 designed 1957, AR18 designed 1963) that's a short stroke piston driven weapon...

But even Pmags and other continuous curve mags aren't perfect and their improvement gains are limited due to the AR15 magwell dimensions/design...  Which goes to a related discussion I'm having on the Galil boards right now insofar as why IMI would handicap the Galil ACE weapon system by bringing it to the US market with the decidedly inferior STANAG type mag design rather than the superior steel Galil mags...

[DanielBoone]

Thank you for your inquiry.  We?re always looking for ways to improve upon existing products and explore the boundaries of new ideas, but are not releasing any information on projects that may or may not be in the works.  Please keep an eye on our website for news and updates:
http://www.magpul.com/ourgear.html

[DanielBoone]

More options drive prices down;).

Cheers;)

[knoxy]

And to AK folks that complain about the mags -- I always reply like a moderate smartass to the effect of "you're right, it's mags are better -- just like everything else about the VZ58."

I never understood the mag argument.  I was at a pumpkin shoot last weekend, and a couple guys with AKs were having trouble with their mags. Apparently they had a mix of yugo, romanian, and chinese mags, only a few of which would work in their guns. So, arguing that the VZ should take AK mags, when not all AKs take all AK mags, is kind of silly.