Author Topic: Looking for my first rifle!  (Read 19416 times)

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Offline RSR

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #90 on: August 05, 2016, 12:33:16 AM »
Veprs are good rifles, but a couple hundred dollars more to convert to standard AK looks/configuration... 

Your Yugo link is $679 + $30 shipping, which is $709.

Hungarians are cool and I especially like them b/c of the Galil-esque grips; however, they are American made by Century, and not what I'd recommend for a first time rifle owner...  Dealing with Century customer service to resolve issues is not fun or something for the novice.  If it's all they could afford, and if they had friends with expertise to check them out, then maybe...

Used AKs, I'm personally always wary.  A lot of folks treat them like crap, and use them only for rapid fire fun at the range.  While perhaps fun, that does a number on the barrel.  So if I knew you know the person you were buying from kept it in good care or if you or friend have the expertise to inspect closely for abuse and excessive barrel wear, then yes -- this is a good option.  Sight unseen AKs are a potentially major disappointment from my perspective.

Offline CitizenPete

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #91 on: August 05, 2016, 09:08:45 AM »
Back to the original question and philosophy...

I would lean toward a Ruger 10/22 in Poly/Stainless or Mossberg pump shotgun as an "only" long gun.  But after that, for a general rifle, the vz.58 still fits most user criteria in regards to accuracy, ammo availability, dependability, and price.

A simple review of the vz2008 variant from a shooters perspective:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5OTyPNw7nk

The "built out vz2008" variant.  Still needs tab (push-down-plate) welded to carrier or Zendl spring loaded disconnector:

https://www.slickguns.com/search/apachesolr_search/787450387614?view=list
Search was originally posted here (ibid) by @gwvt: http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=79187.0

AKMs : I have shot many including full auto, had many in my collection, and have several still that I probably will never sell.  Certainly VEPRs, Saiga, Arsenals, Yugos (never had one but respect them), WASRs, are all great but even AK ace builder, Jim Fuller (Rifle Dynamics) suggests considering Chinese AK variants as "the best bang for your buck".  I just dug out a post ban Chinese Norinco (MAK90 configuration) I had in storage to swap some US (Ironwood Designs) furniture on. The stock Norinco receiver and FCG (fire control group) is amazing, even compared to Yugo, Arsenal, VEPR, etc.   Your essentially getting a military AK build with a chrome lined barrel that was modded to make it legal for import after the original US 1989 ban.

Dont frown hard on Romanian WASRs to hard.  Prob the most durable low cost AK variants ever built.

Earlier this year I saw someone walking around a gun show here in Ohio with a MAK90 post ban thumb-hole (crap-hole) stock and it was in almost new condition.  Another walker bought it for $500.  $500!? I paid $800 for an unfired MAK90, several years ago.  So, they still can be found for under $1100 if you look.   Add $200 to slightly de-ban (swap out furniture and use US mags for 922R) and you have one of the best quality AKs ever made.  As previously mentioned the stock FCG quality and function is darn near amazing, so I would try to work around the FCG for 922R, rather than swap it out with Tapco, ALG Defense, etc. FCG.  Drop on an Ultimag scope mount replacement gas tube, Houge hand guard furniture, or TI top cover rail mount for a red dot optic and it's now a true go to gun IMHO.   Down sides are no threaded muzzle out of the box (like an SKS), and most other "typical" AKM parts and furniture will not fit on it.

Here is a great interview with Jim Fuller on what to look for when buying an AK.  While I suggest you watch the whole thing for some great insights, in this link I skipped to his comment on the MAK90.

https://youtu.be/7nTZJYU9VqA?t=10m57s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nTZJYU9VqA

You want 7.62x39? If your intended total budget is $350ish and your looking for reliability and decent acuracy?  Consider a good condition Chinese SKS with a chromed barrel. Set a round in the muzzle end of the barrel to make sure it doesnt go in to check if it is "shot out".
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 11:01:57 AM by CitizenPete »
CP

The post above is opinion, and I am probably totally wrong, so please pardon me if I offend anyone in any way. I am speaking only for myself and just sharing my thoughts, not trying to start an argument with anyone, and if you disagree with anything I have said, I concede your correct.

Offline RSR

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #92 on: August 05, 2016, 02:46:15 PM »
I would lean toward a Ruger 10/22 in Poly/Stainless or Mossberg pump shotgun as an "only" long gun.  But after that, for a general rifle, the vz.58 still fits most user criteria in regards to accuracy, ammo availability, dependability, and price.

I agree with everything CP posted, with one exception.  The pump shotgun.  They're hard to master manipulation under stress (including very necessary tactical reloads with limited capacity), limited capacity, limited effective range, have a mean kick, and while they do have a very versatile ammo selection -- the 12 or 20 ga shotshell (add 16 if you want, but those are the only 3 gauges suitable to general purpose; .410 is not) is extremely heavy, bulky, and inefficient relative to centerfire or even rimfire rifle cartridges...
I can think of 5 scenarios where I'd prefer a shotgun over a 22lr rifle:
-3 or fewer human threats within 25 yards
-Hunting birds in flight
-Hunting or defending from larger than deer-sized game, including hogs, bears, etc, slugs for all and preferably with a rifled shotgun... 
-Dealing with a crazed, drugged, or otherwise out of normal consciousness human whom you quite literally have to bleed out, stop CNS function to stop the aggressor -- most humans have a sense of self-preservation where 22lr, including multiple shots, is adequate
-Lastly, the paranormal, including fast zombies and vampires -- the former due to lightning fast speed being like birds in flight and the latter as silver is much easier to load into a shotshell combined with aforementioned (potential) vampire speed...  :o

I also cannot state enough the value of having a 22lr pistol for new shooters as well...  Starting there helps develop good habits rather than starting with larger caliber, learning bad compensating habits, and then having to unlearn all of those bad habits to become a good shooter...

So 22lr rifle + 22lr pistol is a pretty great foundation combo for anyone's firearm evolution.  And I don't think 22lr is nearly as inadequate as some like to state, but it's also not ideal either...

CZ makes some great 22lr rifles too if you want an accurate, classic wood long arm.  22lr pistols, I'm partial to Bersa, but Rugers are good too (though much more difficult to disassemble for regular clean but do digest a wider variety of ammo).  Beretta has some good 22lr pistols too but mags are difficult and expensive to obtain and have less capacity than the Bersas.

*EDIT: And a clarification -- WASRs are reliable/go bang in stock configuration, but their build quality varies quite a bit, so probably not a "great" rifle for your average WASR.  Not too much different than the Century monkey reputation, except  that their rifles work...  Rifle dyanmics did have a basic WASR upgrade package for ~$300 that tuned them up considerably (Bolton block and barrel shortening and upgrading furniture were extra $ above $300), but don't see it listed on their website currently.  You can read about it here: https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2012/1/31/rifle-dynamics-fine-tunes-the-wasr-10/
They are also the most common AK variant in the states, which is a probably good thing...
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 03:07:16 PM by RSR »

Offline mdi_weapon

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #93 on: August 05, 2016, 05:24:26 PM »
The Norinco AKs were a lot of fun when they were dirt cheap. The last few of them I have seen on gun auction sites have sold for north of $900 if NIB condition. Makes me happy I bought mine when they were quite a bit under $400. :) It's too bad that Norinco had to allow some of their execs and employees to make some world class idiotic decisions which resulted in them being banned from further importation. That is an interesting story but I digress.

Chinese SKS rifles are solid but you have to make sure you are 922r compliant with any and all upgrades as previously noted. The penalties for 922r violations are harsh to say the least.

Future bans. If they can get them passed, you can be certain that no semi-auto will be immune. The most recent bill which attempted it covered every loophole. It had a specific list of weapons and then an inclusion clause to address additional firearms by specific features which would also be covered. It also had a ban provision for replacement parts and magazine tubes. If that would have passed, any semi-auto that could accept a box mag or other high capacity mag would have been gone. They definitely learned from their mistakes on the Clinton '90s era AW ban.

I agree with RSR regarding .22 pistols and rifles as first guns. Regardless of how many guns you end up owning, the .22 pistols and rifles are always fun to shoot and they have a place in every firearms collection. I like the Ruger 22/45 and the Ruger 10/22. They are great guns out of the box but the aftermarket for them is also just huge. The parts and accessories market for the 10/22 is so massive that it is hard to make decisions sometimes on what to buy. Which of the three dozen stocks fits you the best? Folding, collapsible, target?Which of the dozen trigger kits feels the best? Which barrel profile and length? Blued or stainless? You get the idea - there are about 300,000 different ways to configure a 10/22 and that number seems to go up daily.

Obviously, there are other great .22 rifles. CZ makes one of the best. If you want a trainer for precision shooting get a CZ455. You cannot go wrong with that one.

At one point, if you wanted to add several rifles to your collection for next to nothing there were several great mil-surp options that were great all around rifles. Most were also on the verge of impossible to break and with a little cleanup and tuning, they could be really nice hunting rifles or range guns. However, rifles which were $70-$100 not that long ago are now $300 or more. Unfortunately, import bans and moronic politicians have ruined that option.

Offline RSR

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #94 on: August 06, 2016, 01:17:26 AM »
Even at $300 or more, when you compare many military weapons to their modern new production equivalents at the same pricepoint, you often realize the military weapon in hand would cost several multiples were it made from new today...  Is any weapon being given away these days?  No.  Are there still great values?  Absolutely.

Offline MeatAxe

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #95 on: August 06, 2016, 08:59:10 AM »
I remember paying $159 for Chinese AKs and $59 for SKSs back in the day and ammo at @ 6 cents per round (1,000 rd. crate of steel core Norinco for $60).

People were under the false assumption that because the Chinese AKs were so cheap, they were lousy. Nothing could be further from the truth. Although they weren't the best cosmetically, functionally, they are some of the best AKs available.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2016, 10:48:22 PM by MeatAxe »

Offline mdi_weapon

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #96 on: August 06, 2016, 01:26:01 PM »
Mosin Nagants at $59 a piece if you bought a case of them. SKS rifles at $90. Makarov pistols for $95. The fact that I didn't buy a boxcar full of each of them at the time makes me want to hit my head against a brick wall repeatedly.

There are still some bargains under $500. I am not much on the Russian or Chinese Mosin Nagants at the $275-$300 price tags many are trying to charge for them but I would definitely take any of the Finnish Mosin variants at under $350. The Swiss K31 rifles can still be found at decent prices now and then and they are supremely accurate as the GP11 milsurp ammo for them is match grade - that combo is hard to beat. The Yugo 24/47 or M48 can still be found for very reasonable prices.

Israeli surplus pistols still show up at bargain prices now and then. I picked up a transitional CZ75 not long ago for a really good price as it needed a little work but it was definitely a deal even after I fixed it and refinished it. That one is now one of my favorite pistols.

Some of the AKM parts kits are a decent deal if you have all of the tools to build an AKM. If you don't have the tools, you will end up spending as much as a high end AK just to build one from a parts kit. The fun of building one is likely worth it.

Best deal I have gotten lately: I was given a sportsterized 1917 Enfield. The barrel has some pitting and the chopped stock will cost $300+ to replace at current prices but any day involving a free Enfield in .30-06 is a good day.

Offline MeatAxe

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #97 on: August 07, 2016, 05:28:39 AM »
Veprs are good rifles, but a couple hundred dollars more to convert to standard AK looks/configuration... 

Your Yugo link is $679 + $30 shipping, which is $709.

Hungarians are cool and I especially like them b/c of the Galil-esque grips; however, they are American made by Century, and not what I'd recommend for a first time rifle owner...  Dealing with Century customer service to resolve issues is not fun or something for the novice.  If it's all they could afford, and if they had friends with expertise to check them out, then maybe...

Used AKs, I'm personally always wary.  A lot of folks treat them like crap, and use them only for rapid fire fun at the range.  While perhaps fun, that does a number on the barrel.  So if I knew you know the person you were buying from kept it in good care or if you or friend have the expertise to inspect closely for abuse and excessive barrel wear, then yes -- this is a good option.  Sight unseen AKs are a potentially major disappointment from my perspective.


Just goes to show, with another Clintonista regime looming, the price of Yugo AKs is going up. The price went up almost $100 in a day, so ya snooze, ya lose...

I'm still seeing a lot of Yugo and Draco AK pistols for sale at @ $500 or less, which is a hell of a deal. Great vehicle guns.

I don't think those are Century AMD-65s but probably from TGI on Hungarian receivers with a US barrel (or barrel extension) and trigger group -- a whole lot better than Century's in house effort.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/12/joe-grine/gun-review-amd-65-and-accessories/

As far as the Veprs go, 922r customizing with US parts from the butthole stock to the normal configuration is just part of the fun. And there are a whole lot more parts, etc. available for the AK than for the Vz58, which continues to be sold out.

Time waits for no man...so you better be quick to pounce on one of the few VZs when they become available. At this point, they'll probably sell out in a couple of hours, whenever that is. On the other hand, good AKs are still relatively  plentiful...for the moment.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2016, 05:55:17 AM by MeatAxe »