Author Topic: Ammo Accuracy Differences  (Read 1420 times)

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Offline Smitty79

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Ammo Accuracy Differences
« on: October 11, 2016, 10:20:49 AM »
I've never seen powder make a difference in accuracy.   But I've never really looked hard.   Now I'm not so sure.   I haven't done ammo accuracy testing since I bought my Shadow.   I shot 132 pf loads at push less 15 mil OAL for 10 bullets using 7625.   The winner was Black Bullets 135s, at a 1.4in group at 15 yds and second was Blue 147 FPs at 1.5 in group.   I went with the Blue Bullets bullet because I like the feel of 147s and I like the hole they punch.   The 147s are also closer POI to POA.

Fast forward 2 years and I've been shooting same OAL and PF using Titegroup under my Blue Bullets.   I wasn't liking my accuracy performance.   So I compared accuracy to a load I did with Bullseye and Xtreme 147 RN.

The results were surprising.

Here's the first set of targets.   Top target is 147gn Blue Bullets FP at 1.12 OAL and 3.1gn of Titegroup.   Bottom targets are Xtreme 147 RN at 1.145 with 3.25gn of Bullseye.   I called the flyer on the top middle.   I must have jerked the trigger.



Shooting lots of groups is tiring for me.   I was wondering if I did worse on the Blue Bullets on the second target, I decided to reshoot with the Xtreme.   It was as good or better than the first.



Clearly the arrow, not the archer.   I've never seen something like this.   As I work through my spice rack, I will do a lot more accuracy testing before taking ammo to the match.


Don't mistake my high post count for knowledge or wisdom.   I just like hearing myself type.

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Ammo Accuracy Differences
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2016, 10:35:01 AM »
Very interesting.

I find this type test very useful, but also mentally tiring. I agree, you need to be very careful when testing large lots not to over do it. Great report.

 ;)
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Offline whitecap

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Re: Ammo Accuracy Differences
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2016, 11:24:25 AM »
Are you using a pistol rest. Without one you can't really eliminate the human error factor for accuracy which significantly skews your results. If you are standing and free hand, thats some very good shooting sir.

Offline Smitty79

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Re: Ammo Accuracy Differences
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2016, 11:36:15 AM »
I'm shooting off of a sand bag.  The biggest human error, for most shots, is that I am 60 and have a hard time seeing the target repeatable while still focusing on the front site.   I've shot this gun with a rail mounted red dot and do a little better than I do with iron sights.

For this test, it's the same guy shooting the same gun on the same day.   The difference is startling.
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Offline M1A4ME

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Re: Ammo Accuracy Differences
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2016, 11:50:57 AM »
Not surprised at all to hear different powders make a difference.  Been seeing it for almost 40 years.  Seems more noticeable in rifles, but I see it in handguns, too.

Same for red dots, I didn't need one 30 or 40 years ago but they sure do help me out now.

That's part of the lure of reloading.  Finding "the" load that shoots so much better in your gun than everything else that you start bringing home targets to share with other folks.  It can be a real confidence builder to know you can shoot small groups.
I just keep wasting time and money on other brands trying to find/make one shoot like my P07 and P09.  What is wrong with me?

Offline IDescribe

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Re: Ammo Accuracy Differences
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2016, 03:03:15 PM »
Okay, so you previously didn't think powder mattered.  Smitty, let me see how well I know you.  The physicist in you says that pressure is pressure, velocity is velocity, and the chemical makeup and burn characteristics of the propellant that get the bullet to the end of that barrel should have zero impact on that bullet after it leaves the barrel.  Is that about right?   ;)

If I think real hard, and drink a little, not necessarily in that order, I can imagine a couple of ways in which powder might impact bullet flight, but they are guesses, and I wouldn't want to voice them publicly where some unsuspecting FNG is going to read it and repeat it in some other forum in the future as fact.  That said, I can tell you unequivocally that powder DOES affect bullet precision.  That general fact I have no doubt about.

My clearest evidence comes from extensive testing with Montana Gold 124gr JHP, which I've shot rested at 15 yards with ten or twelve different powders inside a velocity window of 1055 - 1075.  That bullet in my 75 ShadowLine made more or less the same group with every powder.  And I don't mean just the same size.  I mean the same dispersion.  Nice and even.  Super consistent.  And it was, at the time, my most accurate bullet.  It was the standard against which everything else was measured.  And it sort of still is today.  I will look at a benched group at 15 yards today, and instantly label it bad, good, or excellent, where my internally ingrained MG124 group is the standard for good

Anyway, I say it was the same with almost every powder.  It was not the same with American Select.  With American Select, accuracy was downright poor.  I couldn't quite wrap my head around it.  This was verified on more than one day and against different loads on the same day to take me out of the equation.  In my 75 Shadowline, that bullet/powder combination sucks in that velocity window.   It just does.  I learned to accept it.  With all other bullets I tested that powder with, it was one of the most accurate powders, and with a couple of bullets at that time THE most accurate powder.  I can't explain the anomaly with the MG 124JHP, but it was there.  And while I haven't seen outliers of the same degree in other cases with powder alone, I have seen powders on plenty of occasions make a clear enough difference to pay attention to.

The truth is that most combinations of components that meet our basic ballistic requirements for a particular application are going to perform closely to one another, and many reloaders are looking for just good enough.  They're looking for standard good.  But some of use are looking for more than that.  What WE are looking for, even if we've never thought about it this way, is outliers -- big fat outliers biased in our favor. 

Powder is one of the components that contributes to those outliers.  There's no doubt about it.  ;)


« Last Edit: October 11, 2016, 03:14:26 PM by IDescribe »

Offline Smitty79

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Re: Ammo Accuracy Differences
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2016, 05:30:25 PM »
I went out today with the same Xtreme 147 Bullseye load and Titegroup Blue 147 load I had last weekend.   In addition to that, I also had Bullseye and 7625 loads for the same Blue 147/OAL combination.   The Xtreme was the best, though not as marked as last week.   The Bullseye and Titegroup were not quite as good as the 7625.  This leads me to believe that this bullet isn't liking the fastest powders.

I also had some loads, I worked up for the bottle of N320 I just opened.    When I did the test rounds, I did 20, instead of the usual 10, so I would have some left for accuracy testing after I did chrono.  Xtreme 147 was the most accurate here.   I had done some Bayou 125 flat points that were more accurate than the Blue Bullets 147s.

The Blue 147s were very accurate when the gun was new.   My gun has 22k rounds through it.   I am wondering if the wear hasn't left it liking .356 bullets better than .355s.

BTW, I am happy to point out that this is my 1000th post.
Don't mistake my high post count for knowledge or wisdom.   I just like hearing myself type.

Offline IDescribe

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Re: Ammo Accuracy Differences
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2016, 07:19:00 PM »
Congrats!  ;)

Is that the standard XTreme 147gr RN?  Or is the 147gr RN-HPCB?

Their 147gr RN-HPCB is the most accurate plated bullet I've ever used.

Offline Smitty79

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Re: Ammo Accuracy Differences
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2016, 09:45:33 PM »
The RN
Don't mistake my high post count for knowledge or wisdom.   I just like hearing myself type.