Author Topic: P09 VZ SIG 320  (Read 7308 times)

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Offline Stuart

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P09 VZ SIG 320
« on: August 22, 2015, 10:00:20 AM »
My Saturday morning interest.

OK...the SIG 320 is one of the new kids on the block.
SIG is pushing hard with a USPSA shooting team, Bruce Gray is offering some great work on them as he has on the SIG line.

Tell me about it. facts, opinions,
who has one? factory configuration, customized. etc.

Thanks

Offline Bere09

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Re: P09 VZ SIG 320
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2015, 11:32:43 AM »
Not a member of Team Sig, but I did buy a 320 and I can give you my thoughts on it. It was my first handgun ever about a year ago. I didn't have any experience with anything else and I liked it well enough. The trigger mechanism was great for dry fire because I didn't have to rack the slide after every pull.

Three months into owning it I decided to buy a Glock 19 to see what all of the Glock fuss was about. This is when I started to see the weaknesses of the Sig. Comparing side by side, the Glock trigger pull, while mushy and heavier on the take up, broke much lighter than the Sig's trigger did. This was with the stock dot connector and stock 320 trigger. The recoil impulse was night and day as well. The Glock shot much flatter than the 320 did. It was such a big difference in my performance that I immediately bought a Glock 34. The differences between those two in stock configuration were even more glaring with both trigger and recoil impulse.

I am not one of those people that started shooting with a 1911, so I was a blank canvas for both of these guns. The Glock's trigger does have some mush and is not as clean with the take up, but what matters is performance and with the Glock I was far more accurate and faster with my shots than the 320. I eventually traded in my 320, even after trying to go back to it multiple times because people on the internet kept insisting that it was far superior to a Glock. Every single time I was disappointed.

Now I'm on to a P09 and I have to say, I'm in love. Recoil is non existent compared to the Glock 34, even with a 13 pound recoil spring in the Glock. I can only imagine the difference in recoil between the P09 and 320. It's such a large difference that my 65 year old mother shot the Glock 34 and P09 in a recent outing. All she had shot for years was a 22 pistol, and the minute she shot the P09, she turned and said "This is easier to shoot than my .22". She's getting one for her Birthday in a month.

The SA trigger is obviously better than both the Glock and the Sig, but after putting the 15# hammer spring and the CGW short reset kit in, the double action pull takes about as much weight to pull as the stock G34 with Minus connector. On top of that, using the P09 for dryfire and just constantly using he double action pull has made me a far better shooter than I was before.

Those are the experiences of an unclassified beginning shooter having gone through the three platforms. I would strongly recommend that anyone looking to get into USPSA on the cheap buy a P09. I would even venture to say that if CZ were to get some of their top shooters to shoot the P09 instead of the SP01, their performance would probably be exactly the same. It's really a criminally underrated gun for the money, but you already know that!
« Last Edit: August 22, 2015, 11:36:13 AM by Bere09 »

Offline J Lee

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Re: P09 VZ SIG 320
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2015, 12:41:58 PM »
I bought the P320 Compact 9mm about 2 months ago.  I shoot it very well for me.  It has a very good trigger, reasonable take up,  crisp with a great reset but not too light on pull weight like a PPQ.  The trigger is ever so slightly heavier than say a VP9 but very crisp with less take up and shorter reset than than any Glock.  It feels a little top heavy to me compared to to other polymer frame guns I have(VP9, Glock 19). As far as striker fired guns, I personally think it's one of the best. That being said, just bought a P07.
James

Offline coolbox

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Re: P09 VZ SIG 320
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2015, 03:33:47 AM »
@Stuart
I have neither. But I have researched them both, particularly after your interest. Please pardon me for speaking without hands-on experience with either (although I have used the P07 for over a year).


-P320 is striker fired, while the P09 is SA/DA. Its not exactly an apples to apples comparison.

-Mechanical accuracy should not be a problem in either. Reviewers are rating Sig P320 in top tier combat pistol accuracy. We have seen with Joe L how accurate the P09 is. That eventually depends on how well can one shoot with either. These are both subject to suitability of grip, as well as trigger 'feel'.

-As with almost all Sig pistols, P320 has a higher bore axis, and that does impact recoil and muzzle flip management.

I am in the market for a polymer pistol, and its either a full sized Glock or a P09. Most likely a P09. I would prefer either of those over a Sig P320. Mainly due to the high bore axis of P320, difficult to master Glock trigger (for me), and ease of shoot-ability with the P09.
Life is too short to waste on a bad trigger pull

Offline Raining_Brass

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Re: P09 VZ SIG 320
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2015, 08:52:49 AM »
@Stuart
I have neither. But I have researched them both, particularly after your interest. Please pardon me for speaking without hands-on experience with either (although I have used the P07 for over a year).


-P320 is striker fired, while the P09 is SA/DA. Its not exactly an apples to apples comparison.

-Mechanical accuracy should not be a problem in either. Reviewers are rating Sig P320 in top tier combat pistol accuracy. We have seen with Joe L how accurate the P09 is. That eventually depends on how well can one shoot with either. These are both subject to suitability of grip, as well as trigger 'feel'.

-As with almost all Sig pistols, P320 has a higher bore axis, and that does impact recoil and muzzle flip management.

I am in the market for a polymer pistol, and its either a full sized Glock or a P09. Most likely a P09. I would prefer either of those over a Sig P320. Mainly due to the high bore axis of P320, difficult to master Glock trigger (for me), and ease of shoot-ability with the P09.
I own and have owned several full sized polymers across several brands...there's just something about the P-09 that none of the other full size polymers can't touch IMO.

Offline Joe L

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Re: P09 VZ SIG 320
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2015, 11:01:56 PM »
I haven't shot a 320, but the grip angle looks different to me.  I shot SIGs before getting the P-09's and liked them fine, but they definitely have the high bore axis.  Other than that, I thought they were great, just expensive. 

I've spent so much time getting a good match between my hands and three pistols, the last thing I want to do is go back to less grip angle and higher bore axis.  I would think a 320 would drive a Glock fan nuts. 

If Bruce likes them, there is a reason.  I've gone to Bruce Gray and Jerry Jones' training and they are first class instructors and shooters.  And they tolerate CZ's just fine, LOL.

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline armoredman

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Re: P09 VZ SIG 320
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2015, 05:01:01 PM »
Only SIG pistol I ever really liked was a P-220. Nice sidearm.

Only comparison I can add is this, from Cabelas website;
Quote
SIG Sauer? P320 Pistols
Regular Price:  $649.99 - $699.99
Sale Price:  $649.99

Quote
CZ-USA Semiautomatic Centerfire Pistol
Regular Price:  $519.99

Weird that the P-09 wasn't listed by that designation...Also Cabelas is notorious for high process, but just using this for a very quick comparison. Link below.
http://www.cabelas.com/product/cz-usa-semiautomatic-centerfire-pistol/709909.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch.cmd%3Fform_state%3DsearchForm%26N%3D0%26fsch%3Dtrue%26Ntk%3DAllProducts%26Ntt%3DCZ%252BP-09%26x%3D10%26y%3D6%26WTz_l%3DHeader%253BSearch-All%252BProducts&Ntt=CZ+P-09

Offline wdbutcher

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Re: P09 VZ SIG 320
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2015, 06:17:30 PM »
Now I'm on to a P09 and I have to say, I'm in love. Recoil is non existent compared to the Glock 34, even with a 13 pound recoil spring in the Glock. I can only imagine the difference in recoil between the P09 and 320. It's such a large difference that my 65 year old mother shot the Glock 34 and P09 in a recent outing. All she had shot for years was a 22 pistol, and the minute she shot the P09, she turned and said "This is easier to shoot than my .22". She's getting one for her Birthday in a month.
Bere09- You say you're giving your Mother a CZ P09 for her birthday? Good Man! :) Welcome to the forum from Nebraska.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 09:43:05 PM by wdbutcher »

Offline dave421

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P09 VZ SIG 320
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2015, 06:46:19 PM »
Only SIG pistol I ever really liked was a P-220. Nice sidearm.

Only comparison I can add is this, from Cabelas website;
SIG Sauer[emoji768] P320 Pistols
Regular Price:  $649.99 - $699.99
Sale Price:  $649.99

CZ-USA Semiautomatic Centerfire Pistol
Regular Price:  $519.99

Weird that the P-09 wasn't listed by that designation...Also Cabelas is notorious for high process, but just using this for a very quick comparison. Link below.

Check slickguns. The P320 runs about $450-500 from most places.


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Offline s0nspark

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Re: P09 VZ SIG 320
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2016, 11:06:43 AM »
I have a P320RX and  it is still stock. I may add an Apex flat trigger at some point but will probably leave the rest stock.

I like the Sig but it really just made me want a P-09 all the more.
"A man's character is his fate."

Offline Tanners Owner

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Re: P09 VZ SIG 320
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2016, 11:41:18 AM »
I have both, enjoy them very much. Either should serve you well, and are backed by reputable companies.

I'd ask you what your intended purpose is, as that may drive your decision & our recommendations.

I love the P09- fits me well, I prefer the DA/SA lock work. Mine is stock except for a FO front sight. Its recoil impulse is the most manageable of any polymer framed pistol I've shot. Superbly accurate. It just fits me. I've shot it successfully in IDPA last year.

The P320(&p250) is unique in how it's interchangeable to fit your needs. It has a better trigger OTB than any of my other striker fired guns (Glock, M&P, XD).  If you want a striker pistol vs a DA/SA Gun, get the P320.

Perhaps a better comparison would be the P320 and the new CZ P10.

Good luck
Like a midget at a urinal, I'll have to keep on my toes

Offline DCSigCZ

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Re: P09 Versus SIG 320
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2016, 12:58:39 PM »
Half of this post is from one I placed on SigTalk two days ago about this very subject.  The only difference is that the OP there was most concerned about everyday carry and whether or not he should continue down the striker fired path, particularly with the P320. For perspective as to my experience: I am a factory certified Armorer for Sig Sauer P320s, Sig Classic DA/SA pistols and Glock pistols.  I work on my own CZs.  I have had three P320s (two full size and one subcompact), five Glock's and many DA/SA Sigs; with respect to CZ, I currently have a P-09 and a SP-01.

There is a fair amount of detail to follow. I hope those interested in it find it helpful.  For those who want the bottom line and skip the details: the P320 has notably superior ergonomics for me (in terms of fit with my hand and natural point of aim) but the DA/SA trigger ultimately wins for me so I've gone back to it via P-09, SP-01, P226 and P229 and sold my P320.  I have yet to find a CZ with as good a trigger as a precisely tuned Sig with SRT, but I am still working on mine.  In reality, I really really like and enjoy a Sig with an excellent SRT (I personally think it is the best) BUT I shoot my CZs as well and they cost a notable amount less. And they have very good triggers - smooth, gradual, good reset and the release point does not build in a wall like the P320 does.  That right there is what ultimately made me turn away from the P320 and back to DA/SA with my P-09, SP-01, P226 and P229.

Details and more details
The ergonomics of the P320, Sig Enhanced Elites and CZ SP-01 are THE best for me. Absolutely designed for my hand. The P-09 ergonomics are good, but not in the same league with the aforementioned three pistols. Why? I find my natural hold to be high with the P-09. I have to roll my wrist down slightly to compensate - not as much as a Glock, but it's there. Other than that, the P-09 is very very good.

I have come full circle - started DA/SA, then went striker and have come back to DA/SA (with one exception noted below).  Why? The SA tigger action is superior to the striker and I practice my P-09 and SP-01 DA in dry fire every other night shooting bad guys on TV.  Also, the smoothness of DA is critical to me - a long pull works fine, however, it must be smooth (without grit and sticky spots).  It's weird but I can now see less sight movement with a DA pull at times than I do with a SA pull. Overall, I am more accurate with SA but I have hit the bull in DA. Practice...

So, the logic of striker being easier to train for general combat accuracy is something I understand - people don't have to do dry fire drills (like I do).  I did not do them for a long time, that's why I started to switch to striker.  I shot my P320 back to back with my P226 over and over trying to decide which way to go. At that time, I chose the P320 and striker fire (I sold my P226) because the trigger pull was exactly the same every time.  That was until I started doing dry fire drills in DA/SA with my CZs and saw a lot of improvement in my shooting - that's when I decided to go DA/SA.  I got the performance I desire out of that action by doing drills. I do them because I find it a challenge to be proficient in both modes. Side benefit = I find myself shooting any pistol I pick up better.  So I sold my P320.

The P320 trigger is very good.  The reset is fantastic.  But, in general, it gets heavier than I like before the point of release. If you will, "the wall" is just a bit too high - in general. Caveat to that last statement - I have shot one FCU that is just like I want it and another one of my friends has a FCU like that also, but most are not as "pure" as those two are.

Regarding EDC and how to decide which pistol to carry P320 or P-09), here are my best recommendations:
1. Shoot IDPA with both for a year, 10 matches minimum.  That will stress you and test you in a simulated manner (not many of us can, or desire to, go and shoot bad guys in real life to reach conclusions about what we shoot best, therefore, simulation is all we have and should have).  Do not just stand and shoot straight ahead at paper. The conclusions you reach doing that will not be valid for a self defense scenario.  Shooting timed, after a draw from holster, around barriers and from behind cover makes a tremendous difference.
2. Reach some conclusions.
    A. Decide which pistol you have more CONFIDENCE WITH = CONFIDENCE IN YOURSELF WITH THE PISTOL AS ONE UNIT. That's different than confidence in the pistol alone - that is not what I am talking about.
    B. Determine which pistol you shoot more accurately.
    C. I recommend selecting the pistol you have the most confidence with AS A UNIT as your EDC as long as your accuracy is acceptable (center of mass of the bad guy). You do not have to be bullseye accurate for EDC. I will even stretch and say that the pistol you are bullseye accurate with probably is not better/best for EDC.

Now to blow your mind - I shoot DA/SA in IDPA with my P-09 and SP-01 most of the time and I EDC a Glock 27 Gen4 and shoot it in IDPA periodically.  Why on earth do I do that after typing what I did just above?  Mainly because I have not found a polymer subcompact Sig or CZ that I have complete confidence with.  I shoot my beasty little Glock well.  I must have polymer living in the Gulf Coast (massive sweat = horrible corrosion).  I tried the P320 SC and sucked with it compared to my G27.  I carried a Shield for a while but shoot the G27 much better and it has higher capacity.   If Sig or CZ made a subcompact polymer DA/SA I'd carry it, but they don't (the polymer RAMI is no more).

As strange as it sounds, I settled on the G27 Gen 4 for my EDC and only striker fired pistol because of all of the striker fired actions I've tried (4 x P320 FCUs, 5 Glocks, 2 Shields) I found a SWEET one in this bone stock G27 Gen4.  I like it so much that I bought an Advantage Arms Conversion kit for it so I can shoot .22 with it - a lot. I kept this particular striker because the feel of its trigger and action lets me switch back and forth to and from my DA/SA pistols with the least difference and transition.  Strange but true.

I will say there is one P320 FCU that belongs to a frind of mine that is just as sweet. I would have kept it if I had been fortunate enough to buy it. Alas, the ones I bought were stiffer.  If you get a great P320 FCU you CANNOT beat its ability to change roles for you - from Subcompact to full size duty or Competition pistol.

I have an Enhanced Elite P226-22 that has a great action stock from Sig. Someday when I have the funds, I will buy an Exchange kit for it so I can shoot it centerfire also. It is double SRT, so in addition to smooth, the SA reset is just joyful to shoot.  I may carefully polish it sometime, after it has more rounds through it and has mated its parts more. Right now it ties as the best stock trigger from Sig I have had. My wife's 1995 P229 is the other.  I have had several other Sigs that were gritty, most disappointingly in a TacOps that cost a bundle. Unfortunately, I now know how to diagnose and correct that due to a forum member but I sold it long ago.

FWIW - this is how my wife decided that her range pistol is a sweet P229 DA/SA and her EDC is a Kahr P9. If you know what a P9 is and how it works, you will understand the connection.  BTW I am absolutely forbidden from selling or trading either of those two pistols. She claimed them long ago.  I can shoot them any time I want but they are off limits to the trade cycle.  I have "my" Sigs and CZs and we share a Ruger GP 100 6" heavy barrel in .357 Magnum that we bought as our mountain lion gun.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2016, 01:07:01 PM by DCSigCZ »
i will fear no evil, for You are with me.

Offline huskerlrrp

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Re: P09 VZ SIG 320
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2016, 02:21:54 PM »
Quote
I have yet to find a CZ with as good a trigger as a precisely tuned Sig with SRT, but I am still working on mine.  In reality, I really really like and enjoy a Sig with an excellent SRT (I personally think it is the best) BUT I shoot my CZs as well and they cost a notable amount less. And they have very good triggers - smooth, gradual, good reset and the release point does not build in a wall like the P320 does.  That right there is what ultimately made me turn away from the P320 and back to DA/SA with my P-09, SP-01, P226 and P229.

I would encourage you to try a CZ Custom, Automatic Accuracy, etc. tuned CZ Shadow. I have had nearly 2 dozen SIGs over the years and still have a West German P220, 2 West German P226s, A German P226 Stainless Elite, a German XFive Allround and L1, a German P228 and a German SP2022. I've also spent time behind a Langdon P220 and Gray Guns P226. None of them are comparable to the DA/SA weights or the reset distance of the CZ Shadow when customized. The "smoothness" is probably a little subjective but I would give the CZ the advantage there as well. A lot of  handgun comparison is subjective, but if you see the amount of USPSA, IDPA and IPSC shooters who have gone to the CZ platform over the last 5-6 years there could be a reason. I've not seen the same progression to the SIGs. I shot the 320 pretty well and may pick one up at some point but I didn't see it being a "game changer" over any currently available platforms. While I still love my SIGs (they sit in the safe) the Czechs get taken out to the range often. Now if I was a law enforcement agency or military entity, I'd probably choose differently based upon the cost, number of parts, ease of field cleaning, service, etc.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2016, 02:23:38 PM by huskerlrrp »