A Discussion of 380Auto Pistols

[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

While the .380 auto will never be a power house round it is incorrect info that nearly all are blowback operated or that being blowback operated somehow hinders velocity. Modern .380 defensive ammo exceeds 900 fps and well placed rounds are at least as effective as .38 spl's no they aren't high velocity magnums but The 9mm is no engine block buster either. The original Remington model 51, the Sig P238, Colt Mustang, Springfield 911, S&W Bodyguard, Browning 1911-380 are ALL locked breach guns just to name a few.

[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

So, it makes me curious which 9mm CZ's do NOT operate on a 'blow back' design. CZ 75's? P-07/09?? What about CZ-83 in .380acp which of course is '9mm short'?  Just trying to learn something here.  Thanks for your post. -Vinny

Vinny -
All the CZs in 9x19 Luger use a locked breech. They have to due to the chamber pressure created by the 9x19 round. I don't think you'll ever see a blow back 9x19 Luger pistol. Maybe a sub-machine gun, but not a pistol.

Can't tell you about the CZ83, but I suspect from the list of cartridges that it's blow-back operated. Blow back guns are cheap and simple to make, becasue the mechanism is greatly simplified. But our discussion here is about the cartridge, not the guns.

After all this time I didn't realize there was a difference between 'Blowback' and 'Locked Breech'. Just thought they all operated on blowback principle.  Found a good article that explains the difference: https://americanhandgunner.com/whats-a-locked-breech/

The locking mechanism, as utilized by John Browning and almost everyone that followed, is so slick that most people don't see it or even know it's there. So you're not alone.

P.P.S.- Apparently, the SIG P238 is one of the very few .380ACP handguns that utilize a 'locked breech' vs. blowback.

And at $599 per (Cabella's current price), the only place you're likely to see one of these is in some internet review !  I mean seriously, why would you spend that much money on a 380 Auto pistol when seriously GREAT 9x19 Luger pistols are available for $150 less ?

 

YOU brought up the blow back issue now you don't want to discuss your incorrect statements and make even more incorrect statements. Blow back while a simple design is not necessarily cheap to make and many of the guns that utilize the concept are not exactly cheap guns and are in fact normally considered high quality. Walther pp,ppk ppk/s, SIG P230 for example.
Oh by the way the Sig P238's sell like hot cakes as do the Kimber Micro's both of which are basically Colt Mustang knock offs.
By the way the lowly HIGH POINT pistols are BLOW BACK designs.
I think your opinions are a bit out of touch with what is really going on out here.
Not trying to be a jerk but there are many new people getting into guns and misinformation is not productive.

[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

Quite a few ladies at one of the ranges I shoot at love their SIG P238's
It seems from talking with them to be more about the ability to reach trigger and controls comfortably than anything else. And perhaps the locked breach does somehow dissipate recoil a bit. I dunno?

While most do not think of the .380 when discussing harsh recoil if you've never fired one the Walther .380 PPK and PPK/S with their blowback design are very uncomfortable to shoot in comparison to the Sig P238 which is a pleasure to shoot with it's locked breach design.
Yep 9mm has really come down in price lately but I reload so the cost of factory ammo is moot. If decent practice ammo hits $5 bucks a box I may buy some.

[Vinny]

Quite a few ladies at one of the ranges I shoot at love their SIG P238's
It seems from talking with them to be more about the ability to reach trigger and controls comfortably than anything else. And perhaps the locked breach does somehow dissipate recoil a bit. I dunno?

While most do not think of the .380 when discussing harsh recoil if you've never fired one the Walther .380 PPK and PPK/S with their blowback design are very uncomfortable to shoot in comparison to the Sig P238 which is a pleasure to shoot with it's locked breach design.
Yep 9mm has really come down in price lately but I reload so the cost of factory ammo is moot. If decent practice ammo hits $5 bucks a box I may buy some.

My first CZ was a CZ-83 in 380ACP I inherited from my Brother. Really handsome nickel gun that turned me onto CZ's; but I always wondered why the recoil didn't seem any different, perhaps even snappier than my 9mm's. Understanding now that it was actually a blow-back design; I get why my 9mm locked breach CZ's feel softer.   Thanks

[IDescribe]

Blow back while a simple design is not necessarily cheap to make

Simple design is cheaper to make. It simply is.

and many of the guns that utilize the concept are not exactly cheap guns and are in fact normally considered high quality. Walther pp,ppk ppk/s, SIG P230 for example.

I think you might be conflating cheap to make with cheap to buy. 

[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

Blow back while a simple design is not necessarily cheap to make

Simple design is cheaper to make. It simply is.

and many of the guns that utilize the concept are not exactly cheap guns and are in fact normally considered high quality. Walther pp,ppk ppk/s, SIG P230 for example.

I think you might be conflating cheap to make with cheap to buy. 

Depends on the brand and the build quality. Bersa's are cheap to make and buy. PPK/PPK/S and Sig P232's were pretty intricate and I doubt very cheap to make which is why they are no longer in production. Not many people today are interested in a .380 that exceeds the $700 price point. I think if they were economical to produce they'd still be with us. The P232 was/is a top quality gun.

[1SOW]

Adding a personal  opinion.  First I DO understand that 380s and and smaller calibers CAN be effective in a SD situation.
I like the looks and feel of some of the .380s I've handled but never owned.
At some local  pistol matches I've frequented,  .380 carry pistols have been used in the action shooting matches.  We had some steel targets calibrated to react/fall with hits from the 9mm minimum allowable125 PF cartridges ( bullet weight X bullet speed / 1,000).  In 9mm Luger that equates to a 125 gr bullet travelling at 1000  feet per second,  or a 115 gr bullet at 1086 feet per second,   very very light 9mm Luger loads. 
  Repeatedly I have seen .380s with SD loads fail to drop a calibrated steel  target/popper with very accurate shots.

THIS effects my bias against the .380 for SD uses.  While I'm sure numerous successful .380 SD events occur,  they are still lacking the power (and capacity) that makes the ,9mm Luger the better "bet" to save your life.....or knock down poppers.

[IDescribe]

I think you might be conflating cheap to make with cheap to buy. 

Depends on the brand and the build quality. Bersa's are cheap to make and buy. PPK/PPK/S and Sig P232's were pretty intricate and I doubt very cheap to make

Cheap may not even be the right word.  Perhaps cheaper is the right the word.  I'm confident that to produce a PPK of the same quality with the same reliability with a locked/tilting barrel would be more expensive than a straight blowback. 

For the record, I've owned a PPK/S, but it was before I was working on the guts of guns, so I really can't speak to the complexity it.  When I originally had it, I liked it -- major cool factor -- but it was a pistol I enjoyed having, not shooting.  In my head, 20 years later, it's heavy, just a big hunk of steel with a poor trigger.  If I had it today, I'd sell it again. 

[IDescribe]

THIS effects my bias against the .380 for SD uses.  While I'm sure numerous successful .380 SD events occur,  they are still lacking the power (and capacity) that makes the ,9mm Luger the better "bet" to save your life.....or knock down poppers.

I'll take it one step further.  All of us, ME, you, and everyone else (at least us 'mericans) can't help but to factor in (MORE!) power at some level, but 9mm has something going for it -- decades of engineering.  As professional, often government entities who went to .40 come back to 9mm, I see the same thing again and again and again -- the engineering of 9mm defensive bullets over the last few decades has simply surpassed what has gone into everything else.  The 9mm MAY have been anemic 30 years ago, but not today.  The 9mm has caught up to the .40, but the .380 is still the .380. 

[copemech]

my old baretta 85 is a awesome little gun, although not by modern standards. I do like the ruger lcp2 over my old cold mustang ,what a great bug gun for the money!

[Tyerone]

It didn't take me long to "shelve" my Bersa Thunder 380 from any SD role.  A knock off of the Walther PPKS and CHEAP, the blowback Bersa is a soft shooter IMO and a few chicks that have shot it, too.  Anecdotal, but my not so nicely finished Bersa is very reliable AND accurate compared to the 2 samples of Walther PPKS  (made by S&W) that were JAM-O-MATICS.


Finally, regarding another thread about "do you use FMJ for SD" -- the only time I did was when carrying the .380, concerned that hollow points wouldn't penetrate so I mixed FMJ in the mag.


I still view .38spl +P as a minimum adequate SD round.  .380 IMHO would be a bit better than nothing (I wouldn't want to get shot by it. . .).