phantom less sensitive to load development than p09

[joedirt199]

While testing some new bullets from summers enterprises, I found that my phantom is way less picky about loads and bullets than my p09.  The phantom doesn't mind low velocity or changes in bullet weight and shape.  The p09 throws larger groups when velocity is low.  I was trying some load development with Alliant e3, Winchester WSF, since several on brian enos have recommend them.

Seems like I have to get up to around 1050-1100 fps for the p09 to get decent groups. 

I was testing 135 RN coated and 145 RN coated now that summers offers them in .357.  Also 135 FPRN coated in .358 as the flat tip makes better holes in the targets. 

decent groups
p09
WSF 4.3 gr
135 FPRN
1090 fps

HP38 4.1 gr
135 FPRN
1065 fps

WSF 3.8 gr
147 LFP penn's uncoated .356
960 fps

Phantom
tightgroup 3.3 gr
147 penn's LFP .356 uncoated
950 fps * 1" 5 shot group at 20 yards

135 RNFP
Alliant e3 3.5 gr
950 fps * 3/4" 5 shot group with 1 - 1" flier

145 RN
WSF 3.8 gr
885 fps * 1" 5 shot group

[Crawl]

Do you think the barrel bushing is the reason?

[joedirt199]

Could be or the difference in barrel coatings.

[Crawl]

My Phantom has the Cajun Gun Works bushing in it, so it's his accurate is about anything that I've ever shot. My po7, however, has a red dot on it, and it seems to be capable of similar accuracy at close range.

This is the first I've heard of anybody talking about the different loads making a difference, so I appreciate you sharing your data. I will try to share some similar data soon

[IDescribe]

"phantom less sensitive to load development than p09"

Don't actually see load development in that first post.  I see single loads with different bullets and different powders at dramatically different velocities.  Not sure what this is supposed to show.


Regarding the bushing.  That P-09 bushingless system is one of the things that makes the P-09 the typically exceedingly mechanically accurate pistol it is.  It's not that a bushing makes a pistol more accurate than a pistol without.  It's the consistency of lockup that makes one pistol more accurate than another (at least in the specific dynamic we're discussing here -- how the bushing contributes to accuracy/precision).  So if Bushing A  is tighter and creates a more consistent lockup than Bushing B, Bushing A will lend itself to greater precision, but a bushingless system that creates a tighter lockup than Bushing A will lend itself to greater precision than does Bushing A.  All about the lockup.

[joedirt199]

I just didn't list all the ladder data that I have ran through both guns. When loading up test rounds and trying new powders, I would load 2 strings of 5 rounds, 1 for each gun. The phantom didn't seem to mind the differences as much and shot closer to point of aim and in smaller groups. The p09 shot larger groups and the point of impact changed more with different bullet weights and powders. The loads mentioned above are some of the better for each gun.

[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

I just didn't list all the ladder data that I have ran through both guns. When loading up test rounds and trying new powders, I would load 2 strings of 5 rounds, 1 for each gun. The phantom didn't seem to mind the differences as much and shot closer to point of aim and in smaller groups. The p09 shot larger groups and the point of impact changed more with different bullet weights and powders. The loads mentioned above are some of the better for each gun.

What shooting technique are you using during testing? From freestanding hold, from a rest? I'm not at all saying your guns are not exhibiting a preference for what they will shoot well and we all know many guns can be picky in the accuracy dept. but I always question test results were the human factor has not been removed from the equation. 

[joedirt199]

When testing loads I always shoot seated at a bench with the gun resting on something. I have a shooting chrony so I do the averages of velocity in my head as I shoot. Shoot 2 shots remember, the number in the middle. My chrony is the base model where I have to do the math myself. A few years ago, I could write down all my numbers and do it correctly but with a 2 year old at home, range trips have gotten shorter. I have been reloading for 20 years and hand weigh each charge in separated brass, federal in this case, for testing purposes. Distance is 20 yards. Both guns are all caguned out with the usual polish jobs.

[IDescribe]

I would suggest that the velocities you've listed for when the P-09 groups got "decent" are in fact pretty fast for those bullet weights.  However, the fast velocities didn't being accuracy in line with what the Phantom groups are, which is what you would need to say that the P-09 doesn't like slower velocities.  All you can really say is that accuracy improved with extra velocity.

If you can't tune those bullets with those powders to do as well as the Phantom does with those bullets, I think it more likely that you have found one of two things, either:

• Your P-09 doesn't like heavier bullets, which we have heard anecdotally again and again and again in these forums since the P-09 was released, OR
• Your P-09 doesn't like over-sized bullets at .357 and .358.

Food for thought. 

[joedirt199]

The velocities I was refering to are for the 120-130 gr range not the 147s. I know pushing heavy bullets fast can get dangerous.

[M1A4ME]

I have yet to find a 147 grain (Missouri Bulles, lead and coated lead) or plated (Ranier Bullets) hollow points that shoot will in my P09, or any of my CZ's.  All of them seem to shoot 115 grain hollow points moving at a high rate of speed better.  I have not yet tried any of those 124 grain hollow points I have, some day.

[joedirt199]

My p09 liked the penn 147 lead fp .356 with tightgroup but that powder runs hot and smokey when pushed with lead. Trying to get a combo that is less snappy and smokey. Shot some steel challenge mathes where the smoke was pretty thick after a quick string.