Author Topic: Please define accurate. . .  (Read 824 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Earl Keese

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2860
Please define accurate. . .
« on: October 11, 2018, 09:47:58 PM »
 Recently I made the switch from ACME's old profile 124rn to the new profile. I have two different loads using mixed brass and HP-38. One for my Scorpion and one for my Pre-B, both used for practice and club steel matches. No problem with the Scorpion, but I haven't been happy at all with the groups I'm shooting with the pistol.
 Since I'm almost through my last pound of HP38, I've been reading up about different powders. In most threads, people describe their pet load as soft shooting and accurate. I sight my guns in at 25yds, and generally shoot(wrists rested)for groups at that distance to judge accuracy.
 What size groups at what distance do you guys consider good enough for match use?
 

Offline Joe L

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5243
Re: Please define accurate. . .
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2018, 10:20:28 PM »
I would think around an inch.  No more than 2", at 25 yards, with a red dot.  A little larger with iron sights, for me.   

I've shot as small as 1-1/4" at 50 yards (red dot 75B with 10x bushing, Atlanta Arms 115 JHP), but I can't do  it every day.  For me, some days are 3" at 50 yards, with the gun and ammo that I have shot at less than 1-1/2" last range trip.  But, if a gun/ammo combination is not good, it won't shoot well on any day.

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C

Offline Scarlett Pistol

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3077
Re: Please define accurate. . .
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2018, 10:27:42 PM »
On normal days when I’ve worked on accuracy a little more I hold 3” from a standing 2 hand grip at 25 yards. I’m not getting that as easily with Coated bullets. Best was under an inch.
"In God I trust. All others must supply data."

Offline Earl Keese

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2860
Re: Please define accurate. . .
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2018, 10:57:19 PM »
Scarlet, I can generally hold my 2 hand 25yd groups to 3" as well. That wasn't a problem with the old acme profile, but I can't do it with the new. To compare, I tried some OEM FED 115fmj and was able to do 3". Best I've been able to do with the new ACME's rested is 4"-5". I'm thinking I need a slower powder than HP38.
 Joe, the only pistol I have a dot on currently is My P10C, and I'm still struggling to shoot it accurately. I was able to manage a 2.5" group with my Kadet(iron sights) today just to confirm my technique isn't the issue. Having some trouble getting my head right lately. I have a class coming up and don't feel comfortable shooting any of my pistols right now.

Offline Scarlett Pistol

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3077
Re: Please define accurate. . .
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2018, 11:19:06 PM »
I’m running sport Pistol and the hotter the load the accuracy improved in testing. I haven’t tried running my BE-86 to test this theory to see if they continue to improve with more velocity. I think we’re running into the same issue. I can run them for drills and close range but I feel a great lack of confidence in longer ranges. I’m about ready to order some RMR fmj’s and test them out. Then sell my coated bullets if those work better.
"In God I trust. All others must supply data."

Offline M1A4ME

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4199
  • I've shot the rest, I now own the best - CZ
Re: Please define accurate. . .
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2018, 07:16:11 AM »
The last time I shot my old Pre B CZ85 (nothing fancy, new barrel but original bushing and it's sloppy) at 25 yds. it was shooting 4 to 6" groups.  Not great, but between it's condition and my condition I wasn't too unhappy with it.

Sometimes it's difficult to get a load that shoots well in two different guns.  You may have some load development time/effort in your future.
Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.  So, if you see me walking the dogs with my SIG 556R, its okay.

Offline Earl Keese

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2860
Re: Please define accurate. . .
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2018, 07:48:02 AM »
The last time I shot my old Pre B CZ85 (nothing fancy, new barrel but original bushing and it's sloppy) at 25 yds. it was shooting 4 to 6" groups.  Not great, but between it's condition and my condition I wasn't too unhappy with it.

Sometimes it's difficult to get a load that shoots well in two different guns.  You may have some load development time/effort in your future.
I actually use two different loads, one for the pistol and a lighter load for the Scorpion.
 This particular pre-b is actually a transitional. It has a 10X bushing and lock up/fit is tight enough that the barrel still can't be removed by hand. The barrel has also been re-crowned at 11°.
 I loaded a new ladder when I switched to the new profile and have tried different seating depths, checked my die settings and backed off on crimp. At this point, I'm thinking I need more velocity and HP38 won't get me there. The part that I've struggled with is that the old profile bullet worked so well and the new one doesn't -at least to my accuracy standard. That's why I was curious about other people's accuracy standard for match use.

Offline M1A4ME

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4199
  • I've shot the rest, I now own the best - CZ
Re: Please define accurate. . .
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2018, 09:29:55 AM »
Earl, so far I've not found much with the 9MM.  I have my load of Blue Dot for the PD 115 grain hollow points.

Other than that I've, so far, tried various combinations of Blue Dot with 115 grain PD (shoots great), Blue Dot and 147 grain coated lead (nope).  Unique and 147 grain coated lead (nope).  Red Dot and 147 grain coated lead (nope).  147 grain plated and AA#5 (nope).  124 grain plated and AA#5 (nope).

I loaded up a box of 147 grain lead coated bulletes with TG and can't seem to find them.  I set them aside so I'd be able to quickly grab them for the next range trip (that was back in the spring/early summer) and so far I've been unable to quickly, or not so quickly, find that box of ammo.

I got some AA#7 the other day.  Haven't tried it out but reloading weather is here again.

Bullets by brand

Missouri Bullet Co. 147 grain lead and coated lead
Rainer Bullets 124 and 147 grain hollow points
PD 115 grain hollow points
Summer Enterprises 124 grain LRN

I've got some Zero 115 and 124 grain hollow points to try.  And some Nosler 124 grain hollow points.

The Blue Dot works well for me in the .40 S&W with light bullets (135 grain hollow points) so it's my 9mm and .40 S&W powder for light hollow points.  I also get great accuracy from the light lead bullets (140 grain Missouri Bullet Co) in lead or coated lead with Herco.  But I've not yet tried Herco for the 9MM (don't even know if I can use it).

I've got a lot of work to be done with those 9MM target/practice loads.  I can't keep using up my 115 grain PD's for putting holes in paper.
Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.  So, if you see me walking the dogs with my SIG 556R, its okay.

Offline Bossgobbler

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 735
Re: Please define accurate. . .
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2018, 02:48:32 PM »
If you are shooting" fast" Steel Challenge type steel, you want a fast burning powder. If you are shooting "bulleye" type "slow" a slower burning powder that you can push the bullet faster is better.  The average distance in steel challenge is 15 yards and you are shooting fast at 10" & 12" round plates ane 18" X 24" plate so 2"-3" is good enough.  I use Blue bullets in all my reloads, all shoot well, bench rested at 25 yards 1.5"- 2.5" groups. 

  You should give Alliant Sport Pistol a try, meters well and is clean burning. it is formulated to compete with N320
 at half the cost.

 in my CZ Accu-Shadow I use; for USPSA 125gr TC blue bullet, 3.8gr N320 @ 1.110" (1030fps, 129PF)
, Steel challenge: 115gr RN 3.4gr N310 @ 1.130" (1009fps 116PF)  Very fast powder works well as all you have to do is hit the steel.

in my CZ Czechmate I use: 125gr.RN 8.6gr 3N38 @ 1.150" (1345fps, 168PF) & 125gr. RN 7.0gr N350 @ 1.155" (1340 FPS, 167 PF)

in my Wilson Combat AR-9 I use: 115gr RN 3.4gr N310 @ 1.130" (1160 FPS , 133PF) & 150gr RN 2.6gr N310 @ 1.150" (901 FPS, 135 PF)

Offline IDescribe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3973
Re: Please define accurate. . .
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2018, 06:34:22 PM »
In most threads, people describe their pet load as soft shooting and accurate.

Right.  Those guys are 9mm minor action pistol shooters loading for soft.  Accurate for this group might be 2 inches at 25 yards or "I can keep all bullets on a man-sized target at 7 yards!  'MERICA!"  And unless they say specifically what they mean by accurate, you have no idea.


I sight my guns in at 25yds, and generally shoot(wrists rested)for groups at that distance to judge accuracy.

 What size groups at what distance do you guys consider good enough for match use?

Everything I test gets tested at 15 yards first.  I want well under an inch laterally at 15 yards, wrists rested.  Sometimes I do this while chronoing, sometimes not.  I assume vertical stringing in excess of width is me. 

Loads that are good at 15 will be tested at 25 yards, wrists rested, and I want under 2 inches.  I don't make it a point to test 9mm minor loads past 25 yards.  If it's good for sub-2 at 25 yards, it's good for the 35 yard limit. 

If I plan on loading for shooting at 50, I'll test at 50.  I have loads with my 97 E-conversion that I can hold under 4 inches at 50 yards, again, wrists rested, and with a dot.  I know guys who are great shots, and I'm not a great shot.  ;)



Earl, what velocity are you driving these new profile 124gr at?



 
« Last Edit: October 13, 2018, 09:08:51 AM by IDescribe »

Offline Earl Keese

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2860
Re: Please define accurate. . .
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2018, 09:17:26 PM »
4.2gr of HP38 @ 1.12 oal averaged 1064fps. 25yd rested group was 4".
4.1 w/1.12 oal averaged 1040fps with a 6" group(if you can call that a group).
 I also tried 4.0gr @ 1.10oal and averaged 1037fps with a 2.48" group.
 I was thinking seating deeper might help a little. Even the smaller groups had a flier or two that spoiled the group. Usually I wouldn't have this problem shooting from a rest.

Offline MadDuner

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 428
Re: Please define accurate. . .
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2018, 09:39:51 PM »
After reading this thread - I will no longer even begin to think I am ever accurate ever again. Lucky occasionally, but not accurate.

Offline IDescribe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3973
Re: Please define accurate. . .
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2018, 11:13:01 PM »
4.2gr of HP38 @ 1.12 oal averaged 1064fps. 25yd rested group was 4".
4.1 w/1.12 oal averaged 1040fps with a 6" group(if you can call that a group).
 I also tried 4.0gr @ 1.10oal and averaged 1037fps with a 2.48" group.
 I was thinking seating deeper might help a little. Even the smaller groups had a flier or two that spoiled the group. Usually I wouldn't have this problem shooting from a rest.

A few things...

(1) I show Hodgdon's data for 125gr LCN with a max load of 4.4gr and 1086 feet/sec with 231/HP38, so you are not at max load yet.
(2) If you were getting accuracy to your liking with a different bullet and that powder, it seems the bullet may be the issue.  I have run into situations where certain powders don't do well with certain bullets but do well with others, but for the most part, if the gun likes the bullet, the gun likes the bullet
(3) On an entirely subjective scale (FWIW) of 1 to 10, I have produced loads for my Shadow that in terms of accuracy are 10s, but those are few and far between, and I've also produced 6s.  My VP9 seems to produce 9s and 10s.  The point is that for me, my Shadow is considerably more particular about what's going to work.  It's not that one pistol is more accurate than the other.  It's that the CZ is choosier.  At the end of the day, you may find that your CZ just doesn't like that bullet with that powder.  OR you might find it doesn't like that bullet with any powder.  Maybe it's bullet to barrel fit?  Maybe the older profile would work better for you than the new profile today, but MAYBE something else changed.  Maybe the tools ACME used in the sizing process last time you bought are different than the ones today, and maybe ACME is producing bullets a bit smaller today, and even if you were to able to buy the old profile today, you'd have the same results as with the new profile -- because the difference isn't the profile?  There's no way to know unless you have a bunch of the older profile leftover to put a good micrometer on make a comparison.
(4) I'm not impressed with HP-38 in 9mm for accuracy.  It's not bad, but it's not special.  Another powder might improve the situation, but improvement doesn't necessarily mean things are great.  If I had another 9mm pistol that liked those bullets, and I loaded another caliber that does well with that powder, I'd be tempted to buy new powder AND new bullets, and take this opportunity to have some fun with load development. 

Maybe try BBI 125, which tend to be a little over-sized?  Maybe try some Alliant Sport Pistol?  Or Bullseye?  Or WSF?  There's no guarantee there's a magic combo with that bullet and powder that will give you what you want.  Don't fight with it too long.  ;)
« Last Edit: October 13, 2018, 09:13:49 AM by IDescribe »

Offline Joe L

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5243
Re: Please define accurate. . .
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2018, 06:23:56 AM »
After reading this thread--I am convinced I made the right decision to NOT start reloading as I would be in constant state of confusion over cause and effect.  I love box ammo (like Atlanta Arms 115 JHP for 9mm).   :) :)

I can barely handle the day-to-day variations in my own trigger finger. 

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C

Offline IDescribe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3973
Re: Please define accurate. . .
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2018, 09:07:12 AM »
After reading this thread--I am convinced I made the right decision to NOT start reloading as I would be in constant state of confusion over cause and effect. 

BOOOoooo!  ;)

There are some tried and true loads for the shooting you do, Joe.  But that AA AMU ammo you use is obviously excellent, so I don't know how easy it would be to improve on it. :)

 

anything