Author Topic: Kel-Tec Sub2000: Active Threat Response Option  (Read 404 times)

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Online RSR

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Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000: Active Threat Response Option
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2018, 04:16:33 PM »
I will be honest, I have both an integrally suppressed 9mm AR and an integrally suppressed blackout that would be my ideal picks for HD.  And the blackout getting the obvious nod.  Especially with using the 194 Lehigh defense handloads.  And not even mentioning that you could simply switch mags to supersonic bullets and have a round that is more closer to standard 7.62x39.

I have worked up several subsonic loads that I think would be ideal for HD or anywhere in or near the house, which I think would be devastatingly effective.  Plus, I don't have to worry about myself, my family, or my grandkids being deafened if I were to be forced to use them either.

But I am not also responding to active shooter threats either.  And I believe that would need to be treated differently since they seem to do a lot of planning in advance and intend to cause a lot of havoc and generally is a whole different scenario altogether. 

Many of them are wearing armor and intend to do as much damage to the public at large as possible.  While the 9mm does see a slight velocity gain from the 16 inch barrel, I still feel that the 9mm is an inadequate round for the scenario being discussed. 

You want to see how a deranged bad guy is going to deal with pistol caliber bullets while wearing armor?  Just watch the North Hollywood bank robbery shootout.

I have 5 different 9mm carbines (two of which have 16 inch barrels) and one that has the happy switch.   While I like them, I wouldn't want to be the first to roll up on a deranged person wielding something much stronger with either one of them.   And just for full disclosure, the 16" barreled variants, one is an uzi and the other is a scorpion evo.  Both are good guns, but I wouldn't want to go head to head with some deranged lunatic with a bigger gun, and larger capacity with either.    That's not a dig on anyone, just reality.

Subsonic, I prefer 9mm to .300 blk as I think those bullets are much more likely to optimally perform at subsonic velocities than are .300 blk.  Also, .300 blk, I worry about over-penetration due to higher sectional density, including through intermediate barriers like walls.

Also, benchrest shooters typically prefer flat base bullets for greater accuracy w/in 300 yards, which is the entire envelope of self defense, so boattail, etc, is of minimal concern/distinction. 
W/in 100 yards, subsonic, I'd take 9mm over .300 blk...  100-150 or 200, no clear winner IMO.  200+ then .300 blk.  Longer ranges or needing heavier bullets threats/game other than humans, then yes, .300 blk clear winner. 

Think I noted above, but anytime you're dealing with an armored threat, you should shoot at crotch to belly buttom pelvis area.  Typically not armored, and larger area and more stable target than the head. 
Also, the benefit of 9mm out of carbine is the increased precision due to longer sight radius and add'l points of contact on weapon.  Higher velocity also helps the bullet to shoot flatter, which is also helpful to that end...

Offline John A.

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Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000: Active Threat Response Option
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2018, 10:28:31 PM »
I have never seen a split can due to pressure at the barrel.  Manufacturers tend to use proper material choice for the caliber that they're building a can for.  Regardless of barrel length. 

I've seen some melt alive during destruction tests.

I've seen some rupture from bullet deflection from baffle strikes.  But isn't really nothing to do with heat fatigue or high pressure.

I've never seen a can split due to being used on a short barrel.  Again, suppressor manufacturers will tell you it voids their warranty on shorter barrels due to erosion from the unburned powder acting as a sand blaster, and decreased service life.

As for 9mm or blackout, I rarely can get a shot over 50 yards anywhere.  Even hunting.  So, out to 300 yards, for SD/HD, isn't a realistic consideration, at least for me and where I live.

Have you ever seen what a 300 blackout 194 gr subsonic Lehigh Maximum Expansion bullet does within 50 yards?  That's why it's what I keep in my HD magazine.  And it has a lot more oomph dumping into the target once it starts expanding as well.  You'll never get a 9mm to expand to quadruple its' starting size like the Lehighs will.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by getting a longer sight picture with a 16 inch barrel over a shorter one on 9mm. 

Most are the same sight length regardless of barrel length.

The uzi for instance, the front and rear sight are both welded to the receiver.  My mp5, the same.  M10--still mounted to the receiver.

The scorpion is the lone exception since it has a rifle and a carbine/pistol length handguard.

My AR9 front sights are mounted to the front of a 12" handguard.  Again, isn't dependent to barrel length.  Whether it has a 1 inch barrel or 24 inch.
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Online RSR

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Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000: Active Threat Response Option
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2018, 01:42:10 AM »
I have never seen a split can due to pressure at the barrel.  Manufacturers tend to use proper material choice for the caliber that they're building a can for.  Regardless of barrel length. 

I've seen some melt alive during destruction tests.

I've seen some rupture from bullet deflection from baffle strikes.  But isn't really nothing to do with heat fatigue or high pressure.

I've never seen a can split due to being used on a short barrel.  Again, suppressor manufacturers will tell you it voids their warranty on shorter barrels due to erosion from the unburned powder acting as a sand blaster, and decreased service life.

As for 9mm or blackout, I rarely can get a shot over 50 yards anywhere.  Even hunting.  So, out to 300 yards, for SD/HD, isn't a realistic consideration, at least for me and where I live.

Have you ever seen what a 300 blackout 194 gr subsonic Lehigh Maximum Expansion bullet does within 50 yards?  That's why it's what I keep in my HD magazine.  And it has a lot more oomph dumping into the target once it starts expanding as well.  You'll never get a 9mm to expand to quadruple its' starting size like the Lehighs will.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by getting a longer sight picture with a 16 inch barrel over a shorter one on 9mm. 

Most are the same sight length regardless of barrel length.

The uzi for instance, the front and rear sight are both welded to the receiver.  My mp5, the same.  M10--still mounted to the receiver.

The scorpion is the lone exception since it has a rifle and a carbine/pistol length handguard.

My AR9 front sights are mounted to the front of a 12" handguard.  Again, isn't dependent to barrel length.  Whether it has a 1 inch barrel or 24 inch.

Pistol cans and rimfire cans have kaboomed when used on centerfire rifles.  Not exactly the same but similar.

Sights -- was mainly stating that 9mm out of a carbine is much more accurate than 9mm out of a handgun, and since we're talking pistol ballistics for subsonic .300 blk and 9mm carbines accuracy/precision is the biggest determinant of effectiveness of a given shot.   However, can also note that relative to AR, standard 16" carbine length AR's irons are about equivalent to a sub2k.  Shorter barrel than carbine length, then sub2k has longer sight radius.

Aren't those Lehigh bullets about $1.20 per one, and cartridges loaded with the same bullets about 2x that, or $2.40 per one?   

Main thing w/ the Lehigh is that the throat is over 2" long before expanding:


Vs funks 40 S&W that opens immediately and has about same depth of penetration:


Vs 9mm, you see similar penetration and ~1/2 the expanded diameter -- but importantly cheaper .300 blk load bullet have much reduced subsonic performance than the lehigh you mention here, and higher velocity 9mm expands further and sometimes even fragments creating multiple wound tracks w/ more area impacted: