Author Topic: Can anyone shed some technical light on why these pistols are limited to 10rds?  (Read 1837 times)

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Offline ams

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Magazine measurements for comparison
CZ97 magazine width - .7725"
CZ97 magazine height at max width - .3.52"

Para P14 magazine width - .8865"
Para P14 magazine height at max width - 3.52"

Width of 2 .45acp shells .94"

Looks like 2 rds in a cz mag goes to .86" in height while P14 goes to .55" in height.

This means that there should be room for 8 rds in the widest part of the magazine while the Para should be able to hold 12.  Once the spring is compressed and the follower is in the bottom and the narrowing, upper portion holding 2 rds, gets to 10 for the CZ and 14 for the Para.  The frame on the CZ is longer but narrower than the para.  Not sure it has much to do with the AWB as much as it keeping it narrower to use the CZ75 internals. (I think that the internals are the same).

Offline Walt Sherrill

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I don't think Mecgar would make any money building a larger magazine.  It only fits the 97, not a big enough market to justify.

Those same mags would probably fit the Tanfoglio/Witness and Turkish knock-offs of the CZ pattern, too, and there's a bunch of them out there.  I just don't know if there's that much demand.  At different times Tanfoglio, Witness (made by Tanfoglio) and Magnum Research (which imported the ASAI ONE PRO) all used 10-round mags for their .45s -- and the mags were interchangeable with the CZ-97B.  (I've had an ASAI ONE PRO, a couple of Witness .45s, and a 97B all at the same time.  At that point in time, the factory mags that came with the guns were all made by Mec-Gar.) 

Many folks seem to think 10  rounds of .45 is enough.  :)

High-cap mags are popular in the gun games (IPSC/USPSA/IDPA), but shooters there quickly found that you can get a lot more .40 rounds into a full-sized grip than .45s rounds and still meet the power factor limits.

There are apparently a number of .45s similar to or based on the Para Ordnance P14 design that holds 14 rounds used in IPSC or USPSA. There are a number of guns that have more than 10-round capacities, but they tend to be somewhat specialized.  My Springfield XDm Competition in .45 came with five 13-round magazines and it's set up for the gun games (even if I'm not!) :)  While most H&K .45s are limited to 10 rounds,   the Mark 23  which has 12-round magazines, and the Glock 21 comes with 13-round mags.   

Offline Vinny

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What competition and 100 years of development can do.
Comparing John Browning's timeless 1911 with 7 rounds+1 of 45ACP developed for the US Military that was a state-of-the art combat weapon for many years; to the similar size FNH-FNX45 Tactical with 15+1 rounds of 45ACP developed a century later for the US Military's sidearm replacement competition and subsequently released for civilian consumption. The FNX's grip is only 1.32" wide. I think CZ's 97 with 10+1; although a fine handgun; is stuck somewhere back a quarter century ago in development, apparently with little motivation to update.

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Offline jwc007

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Many folks seem to think 10  rounds of .45 is enough.  :)

Pretty much that, for myself. 

Back when I carried my old .45 Witness, one Mag in the Pistol plus two on my belt, gave me 30 rounds which I thought was plenty, should the need arise.
When I shot IPSC Matches with it, having five 10 round magazines gave me 50 rounds, which proved more than enough.

Back in 2013, when Sarsilmaz started importing through EAA, a 14 round capacity Cz Clone, I thought it could be the next best thing, and bought one.  Being an all Steel Handgun and loaded with 14 rounds of .45 ACP, makes the SAR K2-45 quite a heavy Pistol to lug around all day.  With two spare 14 round Magazines on my belt, it's even worse.  I like it as a Home Defense Pistol, but carrying it, not so much.


1992 EAA Witness .45
2005 EAA Witness .45
2013 SAR K2-45
"Easy is the path to wisdom for those not blinded by ego." - Yoda


For all of those killed by a 9mm: "Get up! You are not dead! You were shot with a useless cartridge!"

Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

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The USA is nearly the only market for .45 ACP, and the pistol was designed during the Slick Willy Scary-looking Semi-Auto Ban so was limited to 10 for civilian USA sales
I have to agree with this. At the time CZ rolled out the 97 10 rnds was the max and I suspect they just don't see enough demand to up the capacity. Maybe at some point Mecgar will offer extended mags or + size floor plates but I just don't see CZ reworking the gun at this point. I think they are much more focused on upping their striker fired line.

Offline Joe L

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Polymer guns==set magazine capacity then design the grip to just barely contain the magazine.
Steel guns==design the grip to fit the hand then design the magazine
Sugru==modify the polymer gun to fit the hand and keep the fat magazines.

I've got examples.   I have to have ovalized myself, however one gets there.  :) :)

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F

Offline Radom

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The USA is nearly the only market for .45 ACP, and the pistol was designed during the Slick Willy Scary-looking Semi-Auto Ban so was limited to 10 for civilian USA sales
I have to agree with this. At the time CZ rolled out the 97 10 rnds was the max and I suspect they just don't see enough demand to up the capacity. Maybe at some point Mecgar will offer extended mags or + size floor plates but I just don't see CZ reworking the gun at this point. I think they are much more focused on upping their striker fired line.


Sad, but true.
The artist formerly known as FEG...

Offline Walt Sherrill

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I agree that the US is the only big market for .45s, but it's also the LARGEST market for handguns, period.

I suspect that the good ol' 1911 -- the only true All American semi-auto handgun -- has caused too many folks to think that 8-rounds are totally sufficient for most .45 "events," and it might be.

For home- or self-defense you seldom hear (nor can you find evidence on line) of a shooting that takes more than 3-4 rounds fired by the good guy.  If you did, you'd probably see more folks carrying backup magazines.  The Ellifritz study, which is quite large, shows that most civilian shootings are seldom more than 2-4 shots fired.

But that's true of 9mms and .40s involved in shootings too, but those guns are far more popular in the gun games where lots of rounds are important.  I think the gun games drive a lot of the features we see on newer handguns.  Even if you don't need 17 rounds, extended mag releases, or clean triggers with short resets, those things are seldom a hindrance. 

I think marketers selling guns use the same psychology and techniques we see used when selling cars -- it's often more about IMAGE than true function or performance.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 08:39:36 PM by Walt Sherrill »

Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

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I always carry a spare mag whether it be for my PCR, Sig P225 or 2 speed loaders if I'm carrying a J frame. 95% of the time I'll be carrying a hi cap 9mm because more than likely that's what the bad guy(s) will have. I've read the studies showing rounds fired in civilian shootings and that's all fine for people who like stats. I hope never to need to fire a single round in self defense but I'll always have extra just in case.
Honestly in a perfect world I'd be completely satisfied with a 6 shot .357 mag vs any semi auto.

Offline Phlyers13

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It’s not as easy as it sounds. Sig had to pull their 14 round p227 mags because they couldn’t get them to run after 5 years. 

Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

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It’s not as easy as it sounds. Sig had to pull their 14 round p227 mags because they couldn’t get them to run after 5 years.
I read about that.I'm satisfied with the 10 rounders for my P227 SAS.

Offline GeneticallySwiss

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I have no issue with 10+1 of .45 ACP.  I carried a 1911 for years, including in the military, yes, that long ago.  8). In addition, undoubtedly like many here, I have carried 5 or 6-shot revolvers as my primary, and sole means of self defense and never felt under armed.  If you feel the need to carry a handgun with 15+1 of .45 ACP, that is certainly your prerogative.


GS
"Rules are for the obedience of fools and guidance of wise men"

 - Douglas Bader -

Offline daved20319

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I just traded my 1911 for a Sig P220R.  Obviously, capacity wasn't the issue, I only gained 1 rd. over the old Colt.  I just wanted a .45 ACP that was a practical carry piece, but that was DA/SA with decocker.  Plus, the 1911 was on the market anyway, and this was a great chance to get my hands on my first Sig.  Now if I could just do something similar and score a SP-01 Tactical  ::).  Later.

Dave

Offline longgonedaddy

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Technically, the mag may be limited to 10 rds...but nothing can stop you from carrying more than just one 97!  8)