Author Topic: What 9mm bullet weight do your 75s like the most?  (Read 1463 times)

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Offline Brhodes6

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Re: What 9mm bullet weight do your 75s like the most?
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2019, 07:23:06 AM »
124 gr.

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Offline zhuk

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Re: What 9mm bullet weight do your 75s like the most?
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2019, 09:00:41 AM »
Most non-bullseye shooters don't do serious accuracy testing.  Since so many people in forums are loading for action pistol 9mm minor, and since people in that group often perpetuate an idea that ultimate accuracy isn't that important, people just look for good enough, and good enough ain't that great.  People will test for accuracy at ten yards for a sport that shoots out to 35.  People will make assumptions about the most accurate load at 10 yards being the most accurate load period, but that is far from true.  I have tested loads against one another where the load that performed best at 15 yards was not best at 25, and conducted the test more than once on different days to show it was repeatable for the loads at hand.  Bullets don't just launch from the muzzle in a slightly variable direction and travel straight to the target like a laser.  They wobble and dance and drift further off the straight and narrow with each passing moment like a bridesmaid with access to an open bar.  The longer it takes for the bullet to get home, the more the variables that affect accuracy are magnified, and sometimes the dominant variable at 10 or 15 yards is not the dominant variable by the time you get to 25 or 35.


This is interesting, and peculiar...do people really test their ammo for accuracy at 10m distances? I never shoot groups at anything less than 20-25m, as you say what on earth would be the point of ammo testing at such close distances? I have never heard of anyone doing that before.

Offline Goju

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Re: What 9mm bullet weight do your 75s like the most?
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2019, 09:36:06 AM »
Zhuk - I will address your 10m accuracy testing question - and this applies for me only. I am only interested in handguns that I can carry defensively. I don’t hunt with them anymore, nor do I shoot games. My “range” guns are also carry guns. With that in mind, virtually all of my shooting is done at a distance of 25m or less, and 90% of it being at 10m. My thought process being that if I ever have the misfortune of needing to use the firearm defensively, it is most likely going to be a “get off me” or some type of contact shot. If you are touching off rounds for defensive purposes at 25m, you’re going to have a lot of explaining to do....so when I am developing loads for a new gun or working with a new bullet / powder combo, I am looking for as close to a 1 hole group @ 10m as I can get.

Offline Walt Sherrill

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Re: What 9mm bullet weight do your 75s like the most?
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2019, 11:52:11 AM »
CZ, when developing the CZ-75, used the 124 gr. Sellier & Bellot ammo as their development and later standard ammo.  It doesn't surprise me that so many folks mention that bullet weight in this discussion.

I was surprised to learn, in a discussion on the S&W Forum, with Randy Lee who developed the new Apex barrels for the S&W M&P line, that Apex has found the aluminum-cased 115 gr. Blazer ammo to be one of the most accurate 9mm they've used,  and they now use it in barrel development. 

That doesn't mean it would be the most accurate ammo in a CZ, but it does suggest that the rounds are pretty consistently loaded, and that you won't see a lot of variance in individual round performance when using that ammo. 

I mostly shoot Georgia Arms 115 gr. "Canned Heat" in my 9mm guns.  (Except for self-defense ammo, I shoot Georgia Arms "canned heat" in my .40s, .45s, and .45 GAP pistols.)  I've used a lot of Golden Saber when using self-defense loads, and haven't seen much difference in performance based on bullet weight for a given caliber.

Offline IDescribe

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Re: What 9mm bullet weight do your 75s like the most?
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2019, 01:14:17 PM »
This is interesting, and peculiar...do people really test their ammo for accuracy at 10m distances? I never shoot groups at anything less than 20-25m, as you say what on earth would be the point of ammo testing at such close distances? I have never heard of anyone doing that before.

When people are loading for action pistol shooting, one of the prime characteristics loaded for is power factor (weight*velocity/1000).  Since you know the bullet weight ahead of time, and you know the power factor range you are looking for, you are basically looking for a velocity range as a starting point.

I test initially at 15 over a chrono during load development.  That is close enough for me to shoot precisely at a decent pace and not drag it out, but far enough to see how one load groups against another.  After that, I have it narrowed to one or two charges, and I will do additional tuning at 25.

Some people train at the range they think they are most likely to shoot.

Offline whitetail hunter

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Re: What 9mm bullet weight do your 75s like the most?
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2019, 02:18:39 PM »
115Gr for target practice and 147GR HST for carry ammo. I usually shot 7-15 yards.

Offline Walt Sherrill

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Re: What 9mm bullet weight do your 75s like the most?
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2019, 04:10:38 PM »
Quote from: zhuk
This is interesting, and peculiar...do people really test their ammo for accuracy at 10m distances? I never shoot groups at anything less than 20-25m, as you say what on earth would be the point of ammo testing at such close distances? I have never heard of anyone doing that before.

Not peculiar.  It's actually quite common.  Folks who shoot at much greater distances are less common than you think.

There's NOTHING WRONG with shooting groups at 20-25m, but if you're ever involved in a self-defense shootout with an opponent who is 25 meters away, you 1) might find yourself shooting at a distant moving target when you ought to be getting out of Dodge (making yourself a hard-to-hit target), if that's possible, or 2) you might find yourself dealing with a irritated district attorney (or civil litigant) who is questioning your use of a handgun at such distances.   Civil suits can be a real pain, even if you're found to be "good" for a self-defense shooting by the local legal authorities.

If your opponent (in that self-defense situation) is using a long gun, you do what you have to do.   

Most of my practice is from 30' to 50', with some quick shots taken at closer range -- but the closer shots are almost always "point shooting" not really aimed fire. 

« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 09:50:25 AM by Walt Sherrill »

Offline Jmoser

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Re: What 9mm bullet weight do your 75s like the most?
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2019, 07:36:26 PM »
Bullseye and PPC both have indoor and outdoor courses of fire - 50 ft Indoors, out to 50 yards outdoors.

Big big big difference in loads for my 50 ft and 50 yard matches.  Some of my 'short line'  ammo might not even make it 50 yards  ;)

Offline Radom

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Re: What 9mm bullet weight do your 75s like the most?
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2019, 02:28:56 AM »
I carry a S&W 638-2, so measuring distances in yards/meters (rather than feet) is strange.

20' (or @7 meters) is a good distance for testing loads with a handgun.  I can actually hit something (and even group!) with a .44 Magnum in DA mode at 7 meters, for example. 

25m = @75 feet. There are a lot of handgun sights that completely cover/obscure a target at that range.

« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 02:51:52 AM by Radom »
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Offline Walt Sherrill

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Re: What 9mm bullet weight do your 75s like the most?
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2019, 09:52:27 AM »
I spent part of the day this past weekend shooting with my son and grandson, and some friends.  We were shooting mostly ARs and a few handguns.  (And my interesting little 9mm Keltec Sub-2000.)  I've found that when it comes to medium-sized steel plates (maybe 9" and round) I can hit surprisingly well with any of my handguns at 50 YARDS.  I am only a so-so marksman.   I'm not trying to get small groups but I can make the "gong" ring.   It's relatively easy.   (It's too far to walk quickly to paint the gong so that I can measure group size, and others are shooting, too -- so I don't do it; it's just not that important to me (and I'm probably too lazy to be concerned.)

We're going back to that same range today to sight in some guns.  I'll probably take the KelTec Sub-2000 again, just for the fun of it.  (It uses Glock mags, and I've got several 33 rounders.)  My son also has a SIG MPX with 30 round mags, and you'd be surprised how similar in real-world performance those two guns are.  (We both use the SIG Romeo5 red dot, so optics aren't that different.)

Offline toteone

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Re: What 9mm bullet weight do your 75s like the most?
« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2019, 10:33:01 PM »
124gr JHP from Precision Delta.  Super consistent and accurate when loaded to your guns liking.

I am a fairly new reloader - first year but now have a few thousand under my belt with what I think are spectacular results.  Cheaper, more accurate, more reliable and less "snappy". 

When my buddies at matches ask why I shoot JHPs referring to cost, I tell them that the consistency at 7.5 cents/bullet is a tiny bit more but well worth it!

Gotta buy a couple thousand when on sale to get em that cheap.

Offline clarkgriswald23

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Re: What 9mm bullet weight do your 75s like the most?
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2019, 10:59:00 PM »
I've been using the 115 grn Berry's and I like them quite a bit, I'm with you on the snappiness of them though. I found that if I keep them around the 900 fps range they function quite well as far as having a tight group.

Offline Radom

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Re: What 9mm bullet weight do your 75s like the most?
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2019, 01:28:17 PM »
I spent part of the day this past weekend shooting with my son and grandson, and some friends.  We were shooting mostly ARs and a few handguns.  (And my interesting little 9mm Keltec Sub-2000.)  I've found that when it comes to medium-sized steel plates (maybe 9" and round) I can hit surprisingly well with any of my handguns at 50 YARDS.  I am only a so-so marksman.   I'm not trying to get small groups but I can make the "gong" ring.   It's relatively easy.   (It's too far to walk quickly to paint the gong so that I can measure group size, and others are shooting, too -- so I don't do it; it's just not that important to me (and I'm probably too lazy to be concerned.)

We're going back to that same range today to sight in some guns.  I'll probably take the KelTec Sub-2000 again, just for the fun of it.  (It uses Glock mags, and I've got several 33 rounders.)  My son also has a SIG MPX with 30 round mags, and you'd be surprised how similar in real-world performance those two guns are.  (We both use the SIG Romeo5 red dot, so optics aren't that different.)

I just realized we are talking about apples/oranges (not you in particular, Walt).   

If you are using an NRA 25m pistol target, then 25m is a fairly long distance.  A lot of sights cover the center ring at 75-85 feet. 

If you are using a human silhouette or gong, then grouping is a somewhat different animal. 

In my approach to testing 9mm loads, you want a very precise and accurate group at 20 feet or so, when drawing/presenting/shooting. 

When you are first developing loads, I would concentrate on the initial groups vs. follow-up shooting.  In other words, once you have a nice consistent load that groups, then practice with shooting a string of 10 cartridges. Usually, you won't get major surprises. However, I found that 6.2 gr Unique was optimal with the 124 gr bullet in slow-fire at a distance, but 6.0 gr Unique performed much better in rapid-fire, in terms of shooting to POA/POI (just for example). 

Someone who is law-abiding and "minding their own business" will typically be shooting at very short distances.   
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Offline Walt Sherrill

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Re: What 9mm bullet weight do your 75s like the most?
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2019, 04:41:03 PM »
Quote from: Radom
I just realized we are talking about apples/oranges (not you in particular, Walt).   

If you are using an NRA 25m pistol target, then 25m is a fairly long distance.  A lot of sights cover the center ring at 75-85 feet.

I agree.  I continue to wonder why so many gun makers continue to design their sights for what some call the COMBAT HOLD which some describe as Sight Image 3, below.  (It's hard to get clear DEFINITION of "combat hold" on the next... A lot of folks talk about it, but few really describe it.

Just HITTING the gong is good enough for me -- I don't worry about groups!! :)

As you note, at greater distances -- maybe 30-50 yards or beyond, a small target can be obscured.  (If someone is shooting at you from cover, and you've got to return fire -- and can't run away -- sight image 3, below, can be a problem.



An old Glock manual I've got shows the ideal Glock ideal target hold that looks like this:


Another internet site defines the "combat hold" like this the image below.  No wonder folks get confused! 


I like the last two images, no matter what they're called,  and most of my handguns shoot where I want them to, when I do my part using that type of hold.

The BEAUTY of a red dot sight is that you just put the dot where you want the bullet to go...  But red dots, especially the ones I can afford, aren't all that compact, and some require you to position the dot and then move the gun to position the dot.  It work fine, but it doesn't always assure you of quickly getting on target, and issue in self-defense situations.  With the more expensive sight systems you just put the dot where you want the bullet(s) to go, as the dot doesn't move around in the view finder.  Some of those sight may be awkward on a carry gun. (Or awkward to carry on a carry gun.)

I figure that if I ever have to use a handgun in self-defense, it's going to be up close and personal.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 04:59:24 PM by Walt Sherrill »

Offline jwc007

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Re: What 9mm bullet weight do your 75s like the most?
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2019, 04:55:38 PM »
Getting back to the thread topic, my Cz's, Cz Clones, and all of my other 9mm Pistols work best with the 124 grain Bullet weight, and mostly I shoot the Berry's 124 grain Flat Points.

I have played with and loaded all other Bullet weights in 9mm Luger, and always return to the 124 grain Bullets.
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For all of those killed by a 9mm: "Get up! You are not dead! You were shot with a useless cartridge!"

 

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