Author Topic: Keeping ammo/Kadet warm in winter conditions help?  (Read 574 times)

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Offline Joe L

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Keeping ammo/Kadet warm in winter conditions help?
« on: January 02, 2019, 08:48:43 AM »
I've used Norma Tac22 and Match ammo in my Kadet for roughly 6 years, with excellent results above 40F ambient temperature.  Not so good below 40F.  This last year or so I have had more problems with light hits and failure to feed and more failure to lock the slide back than I remember having earlier.  I can't find anything wrong with the pistol (but I may have missed it!) so I decided to do some testing on New Year's Day to see if ammo/gun temp was really the culprit or not. 

I picked a good day.  25-30F, 10-20 mph winds from the north.  We have the north side of the bullseye range walled off, so it wasn't too bad at the shooting table, but the wind was bad at the target!   

See this video for the result, should finish uploading by 8am CST.   



After I got home, I found a box of Federal Automatch that I had used last year with good results in the winter.  I am also going to try CCI high velocity.  I put an 18 lb hammer spring and a fresh recoil spring in the pistol for use with the hotter ammo.  More test results later this week, although the conditions may not be as challenging.  Unless I go to Ruidoso where they got 2 feet of snow over the weekend. 

No more videos of just me just shooting.  If I can't solve a problem or run an experiment or demonstrate something new, a video is not worth your time to watch or my time to put it together.  No more focus errors either, I hope.   I took too many shortcuts on Tuesday, I am afraid, just to get out of the cold and back home to some football.  Don't mess with Texas, by the way. 

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: Keeping ammo/Kadet warm in winter conditions help?
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2019, 10:10:56 AM »
Joe, have you ever replaced the firing pin?

I'm a firm believer (anecdotal evidence only) of a difference in firing pins and how they work between the older rimfire weapons and the new ones designed to minimize damage to the firing pin tip/chamber by limiting firing pin movement (which affects firing pin impact on the rim).

I remember dad using his old Savage M29 to hunt squirrels in Michigan in the early 60's.  He never mentioned misfires in later years.  When hunting with dogs in WV in the late 70's into the early 2000's with his .22 he didn't specifically mention misfires while hunting but he did say that he believed the "bulk pack" boxes/cans of .22 ammo were not of the same quality as what you bought in the 50 round boxes.  Memory says that was a combination of accuracy and misfires.

I've seen a guy picking up dud .22 shells off the family shooting mats/blankets at Appleseeds to shoot in his single shot Remington bolt action.  His mother/sister were using 10/22's and dropping the duds on the mat/blanket.  At the end of each stage he'd pick them up and lay them by his rifle for the next stage.  He said he was not having any duds/misfires.

As kids we were never allowed to handle my grandpa's old Western Field .22 bolt action single shot.  Dad said he wouldn't risk one of us pulling the trigger on an empty chamber and breaking the firing pin.  He said over the years they'd had to have to broken firing pins replaced when someone would dry fire the rifle.

I used to know a guy who dry fired his old Ruger Mk1 to the point where it wouldn't chamber rounds anymore.  The firing pin never broke but it beat up the edge of the chamber to the point where he had to ship it back to Ruger to get them to smooth out the edge of the chamber (or replace the firing pin and barrel - it's been almost 30 years and I don't remember which it was).

Lubrication and cleanliness could make a difference as well (mentioned those last, 'cause I've seen your posts on cleaning) O0
Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.  So, if you see me walking the dogs with my SIG 556R, its okay.

Offline Joe L

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Re: Keeping ammo/Kadet warm in winter conditions help?
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2019, 10:52:19 AM »
M1A4ME,

I actually have been doing a better job of keeping the gun clean, at least the barrel and ramp and slide rails and extractor.  The frame parts...not so much. 

I think it was a year or two ago that I at least first starting noticing that I could put a drop of the lightest oil I had on hand on the top round in the magazine and the gun would cycle normally.  It was worse AFTER cleaning than before because the chamber was bone dry in my opinion.  In matches, since we shoot slow fire first, I have just been oiling the top round in each magazine and shooting them.  That is enough to last a 900 point/90 round match if it isn't cold.  But I used to not even have to do that. 

I put in a new firing pin a few weeks ago.  Splurged and changed the spring at the same time. 

So, for now, I'll go the other direction--high velocity ammo, 18 lb hammer spring, new recoil spring, light oil on a clean slide and frame, and see if this works.  I remember a day in Ruidoso when it was 9F and calm and the gun ran fine on Federal Automatch.  I like CCI also, but I get just a few misfires even in warm weather with the 17# spring, so I put the 18 in.  This way, I can test both the Federal Automatch and the CCI mini mags without worrying about the primer pinch.  The Norma ammo generally ignites with slightly lighter pin impact than the CCI.   

After this, it is a chamber polish or a new barrel.  I don't want to change the barrel since this one is nearly epoxied in place to absorb some of the impact and lower the impact on that pesky barrel retaining pin, which I replace periodically even if it doesn't look shattered. 

I don't think the Norma will cycle with an 18 lb hammer and fresh recoil spring and a tight chamber.  So I'm off the Norma for a week or two. 

I'll shoot some 50 yard groups from a rest with whatever ammo cycles the gun, just for my own education.  I recall excellent results, however with both candidates when I tested them 5-6 years ago. 

Enough already.  I'm supposed to be working.

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: Keeping ammo/Kadet warm in winter conditions help?
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2019, 12:08:40 PM »
If you are happy with the groups I'd sure hate to change the barrel over a "tight" chamber issue.  If it was me I'd be lapping/polishing, something, to keep a good shooting barrel.

Does the Kadet have a forward movement limited design firiing pin in it?  Even a new one, depending on tolerances might not be moving as far forward as some ammo requires.

While I've not replaced a firing pin in my 10/22 (only .22 I have that I know has a firing pin designed to allow dry firing without damage to the firing pin/chamber) if I did have to replace I might just order the replacement, remove the original and stone a few thousandths off the corner/edge that strikes the internal stop inside the bolt/breechface to allow more firing pin protrusion through the firing pin hole.  What can I say, I like to tinker with stuff.  Sometimes I even learn a little bit from my tinkering, sometimes I have to go buy a new part. O0
Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.  So, if you see me walking the dogs with my SIG 556R, its okay.

Offline JRR

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Re: Keeping ammo/Kadet warm in winter conditions help?
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2019, 04:56:11 PM »
Geco has a product for semi auto that has the same head stamp as Norma and RWS.  It is listed as 1100fps instead of the normal 1070fps for other match ammo.  Right now it is quite inexpensive at approx. $25/brick.  It might be worth a try.

Offline DenStinett

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Re: Keeping ammo/Kadet warm in winter conditions help?
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2019, 09:50:38 PM »
Happy New Year Joe
What are you using to lube your Bolt ?
You also may try using a very light, low temp Oil i.e. Super Lube:
https://www.zoro.com/super-lube-synthetic-oil-iso-68-1-qt-52030/i/G5124515/
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Offline Joe L

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Re: Keeping ammo/Kadet warm in winter conditions help?
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2019, 05:52:13 PM »
I got to the range today for a short time to try some CCI MiniMags and Federal AutoMatch in the Kadet after putting in a new recoil and hammer spring.  Results were good for both, but it wasn't very cold, about 50F.  But I got to confirm that the gun will cycle perfectly with the hotter ammo.  I had one bad primer crimp on an Automatch round--hit it twice and it still wouldn't fire.  And I had one failure to lock back on the CCI.  They felt, shot, and smelled similar.  I had to go down 4 clicks on my sight to zero the gun for the 1200-1235 fps ammo, compared to the 1100 Norma Tac22/Match.  I think.  I will look up the specs.  What I wish I could get is a 1200 fps velocity with the rimfire primer crimp of the Norma's.   

I shot 20 rounds of Norma Tac 22 in the same conditions, and, sure enough 2 failure to feed in 10 rounds, with the bolt just not coming back far enough to catch the top round in the magazine.  New hammer spring and recoil spring just too much for the weak ammo to overcome, even in relatively warm weather. 

I also saved some brass to measure to see if the casing diameters are different and to compare to new rounds.  My guess is that the spent brass will measure about the same and maybe the new rounds OD will vary, not sure if I can measure it accurately enough however.  No extraction problems today with any of the ammo and I didn't add any oil to the chamber.  Again, possibly temperature related. 

Next is accuracy testing.  The groups for the test runs today looked good, but they were shot single hand standing at 25 and 50 yards, and I was too rushed to shoot well, to be honest, so some bench rest targets at 50 yards are needed, so that is what I will do, maybe Friday. 

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F

Offline painter

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Re: Keeping ammo/Kadet warm in winter conditions help?
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2019, 07:23:02 PM »
Have you given any consideration to using a cooler with a small hand warmer inside to keep your TAC-22 warm, and going back to your old springs?

I don't think you're going to like the accuracy of the HV ammo. By the time it's gone 50 yards it's gone from super-sonic, through the trans-sonic stage, and into subsonic velocity. The trans-sonic stage is what bullseye shooters try to avoid. It can do funny stuff to a bullet.
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Offline Joe L

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Re: Keeping ammo/Kadet warm in winter conditions help?
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2019, 07:49:57 PM »
Painter,
Thanks, yes, I have tried the cooler before changing the spring, that was what the video was about.
I understand about the sonic/subsonic concern, but it can't be worse in a match than too many alibis.  I'm experimenting.  Sonic velocity here and in Ruidoso is different than at sea level, also, so I have a little extra oomph over the usual 1070 to play with.  Plus, those velocity ratings are not from a 4.5" barrel, either.  In other words, not sure if 1200 on the box is much over sonic here with a pistol at altitude.  I'll know Friday afternoon after the bench rest tests.
Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F

Offline Joe L

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Re: Keeping ammo/Kadet warm in winter conditions help?
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2019, 06:08:54 AM »
Looks like the Federal HV Match is 1200, looks to be a more closely controlled and expensive version of the AutoMatch that I have in hand, which is good.  Perhaps similar to the way Norma sells the Match versus Tac22 ammo, which I rarely see any difference between.  I also have a boat load of 6 year old Aguila high velocity that I used to shoot in a rifle that I'll try.  Looks like I have a project.  Match in 3 weeks.

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F

Offline Joe L

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Re: Keeping ammo/Kadet warm in winter conditions help?
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2019, 02:17:12 PM »
UPdate--
The use of 1200 fps ammo to get the gun to cycle is a "fix my horn, my brakes don't work" approach.  The problem was a rough chamber, making the casings fit too tightly in the chamber and making extraction difficult, slowing the slide down.  Sure, the HV ammo helped, but that was a crutch, not a solution.  The solution was to change the barrel out.  With a new barrel, I'm back to SV ammo, just like before, and no problems with failure to feed due to drag on the Kadet bolt due to the casings hanging in the corroded chamber. 

New barrel and extractor, back to normal again.  All good.  I'm set for maybe 40k rounds, not 50k rounds.  50k was too long.

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: Keeping ammo/Kadet warm in winter conditions help?
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2019, 04:26:49 PM »
How did the barrel corrode?  .22 ammo hasn't been "corrosive" for a long time.  And isn't it pretty darn dry out there where you live?

The chamber on my Pre B CZ85 was corroded but I figured it was from using corrosive ammo some time during it's previous life overseas.
Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.  So, if you see me walking the dogs with my SIG 556R, its okay.

Offline eastman

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Re: Keeping ammo/Kadet warm in winter conditions help?
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2019, 08:54:29 PM »
How did the barrel corrode?  .22 ammo hasn't been "corrosive" for a long time.  And isn't it pretty darn dry out there where you live?

The chamber on my Pre B CZ85 was corroded but I figured it was from using corrosive ammo some time during it's previous life overseas.

Lead residue + powder fouling residue + a little water leads to electrolytic corrosion.
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