Author Topic: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?  (Read 4570 times)

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Offline z00mie

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Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
« on: January 27, 2019, 12:33:52 PM »
Well, The CZ scorpion pistol has piqued my interest since introduction and I have finally got my hands on one of my very own!  I have a number of other PCCs as well as short barreled rifles (which this will become) and wondered if folks consider this a range toy or a true platform worthy of professional use or staking your life on? Sig, HK, FN and B&T to name a few have track records that lend credibility via their name if not their actual designs for subguns/PDW's etc. The intent of my question is not to raise the dander of those diehard owners/aficionados but just to breech the subject and why one might have an opinion one way or the other? My initial feeling from a quality construction standpoint is probably not as it strikes me as a protype. The polymer construction is precise (for polymer) but I suspect won't stand up to department type use/abuse, the trigger pack pivot pins rotate in sheet metal and "may" not endure extended use either. Other assembly points are via roll pins pressed in plastic which will likely be fine now but questionable long term. The hammer face appears soft as it mine shows deformation only after hand cycling and dry firing. Overall I think its a fine, basic design but not likely ready for anything more than additional testing, development and exposure. Yes, some entities are apparently using it at a departmental level but that hasn't been very convincing for me. Honestly, Robski's testing has bolstered my trust considerably but still I seek continued testing with significantly higher round counts along with his type of unblinking objectivity, commentary and photo documentation. Yes Glocks are made of polymer and live quite long lives and AK's use sheet metal and survive also. I just can't shake my initial perception of prototype...(flame retardant gear-on)

Offline ndmiller

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Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2019, 12:41:04 PM »
Serious weapon as all CZ's tend to be.  The A1 variant is in use across the world.

 Afghanistan: Used by ANA Commandos.[3]
 Argentina: Tucum?n Provincial Police
 Bolivia: Law enforcement in Bolivia[citation needed]
 Czech Republic: Armed Forces, Police
 Dominican Republic
 Egypt: Law enforcement Units[4]
 Finland: Police of Finland[5]
 Honduras[6]
 Hungary: Hungarian Police,[7] Hungarian Defence Forces[8]
 Indonesia: Kostrad[9]
 Kenya: Kenya Police Service
 Malaysia: Royal Malaysia Police[10]
 Malta: Law enforcement in Malta
 Panama: Panamanian Presidential guards
 Paraguay[citation needed]
 Philippines: Philippine Coast Guard-Special Operations Group
 Serbia: Special Forces [11]
 Rwanda: Used by Rwandan Peacekeepers in The Central African Republic.[citation needed]
 Sudan: Law enforcement in Sudan
 Thailand: Royal Thai Police[12]
 Tunisia: Presidential guards
 Vietnam Vietnam: People's Public Security drug enforcement unit (Bureau C47), Army's Competition Rifle Team[13]
 Republic of Moldova: Police and Special Forces
 Republic of Poland: Special Forces

Offline scribzilla

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Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2019, 01:19:00 PM »
They are deployed in several military and police forces around the world. That coupled with range reports I've seen on forums and YouTube, I'd say it's ready for serious use.

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Offline z00mie

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Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2019, 01:35:37 PM »
John, as am I. It could very well have been asked elsewhere, but not by me, nor have I seen it asked (or answered) here. Me, I am a CZ fan. I have a BREN SBR, a Scorpion a CZ75B and 3 or 4 clones plus an 82 and a 97B. Oh, and a Kadet kit for my 75B! Curiously, the list of users provided is cut and paste from Wikipedia with references based on photos encountered throughout the interwebs. I see this as anecdotal at best (see Wikipedia ref. notes).

Offline ndmiller

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Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2019, 01:48:34 PM »
I think you missed my point.  The Full Auto original version was always and is still GTG in applications beyond Range Toy.  So in my mind there is no way the semi version is a Range Toy and not a serious weapon.  One may use it as a range toy, but clearly it wasn't designed as such.

Offline z00mie

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Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2019, 02:10:02 PM »
So my question doesn't get mistaken for trolling, I own the CZ Scorpion Evo 3 S1 pistol (2018) and I do like it, but see a few things I consider prototype-ish (read, ripe for improvement): lowers that don't fit snugly, softish hammer face, sights attached to polymer rails, roll pins anchoring critical parts in plastic unreinforced areas. handguard secured to barrel via nut potentially causing stress on trunnion anchoring area which in-turn could effect accuracy as temps fluctuate, rare earth magnet for stock latch. Also the later guns don't seem to have the same proof marks the original euro guns did which makes me speculate whether these could be assembled here from foreign manufactured parts?

Offline z00mie

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Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2019, 02:41:02 PM »
nd miller, I contend the select fire functionality lends no credibility (to me) for any firearm's suitability for duty or leisure use. I do suspect this weapon was a clean sheet design that was conceived from the outset for the US market's desire for a rest of world, purpose built euro sub-gun (think new MP5 without the "We are HK and we hate you" part) for the average non-mil/LEO user. Basically, build a solid following and sell gun-like souvenirs to us lowly citizens. I always chuckle when manufacturers (not CZ) show footage of a demo gun blasting away in automatic fire or in bursts when the reality is we don't get the racing suspension or performance engine like the competition model, only the one with the cheesy (and expensive) racing stripes...
« Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 02:46:56 PM by z00mie »

Offline z00mie

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Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2019, 02:52:07 PM »
Not at all John A! I just don't want this to drift off point or be perceived as snarky or nasty because of my poor writing ability.

Offline billythefish

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Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2019, 04:36:52 PM »
wondered if folks consider this a range toy or a true platform worthy of professional use or staking your life on?

Not quite sure if this is a question worth asking. If you are asking for home defense would I use this? Certainly. If you are asking if I would take this weapon on operations where I am likely to be engaging threats >200m away...no.

It is a tool, designed to go bang when you pull the trigger without any crazy mechanical bleep happening. There are plenty of people out there with 10,000 rounds+ through these without any issues, then there are people who fire 1 mag off and encounter all sorts of issues. This is the case of pretty much every weapon manufactured ever.

The polymer construction is precise (for polymer) but I suspect won't stand up to department type use/abuse, the trigger pack pivot pins rotate in sheet metal and "may" not endure extended use either.


Not to sure what you think 'departments' are doing with their weapons, but when was the last time you seen any department emptying magazine after magazine regularly on tasks or in training? There are only very specific departments that will put their weapons to regular use and they can afford to have much better performing (and expensive) SMG weapons for this task.

In summary- this is a jack of all trades weapon for me personally- home defense, hiking, range toy etc. Would I carry it on operations over choices such as proven platforms such as mp5s, mp7s etc? Nope. That in no way makes the weapon bad/unreliable/unsuitable....I just wouldn't want to be the test case for such a new weapon.

Offline jnichols2

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Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2019, 05:10:55 PM »
I see the EVO as having a dual personality.

As a range toy, it's incredible fun.  For home defense, it's a deadly serious weapon -- out to about 75 yards.
For my house and neighborhood, that's about the maximum I would need.

billythe fish says he wouldn't want to engage at 200 m.  For anything over 75 yards, I would only use it to fight my way to my AR-15.
But, that would be a very different situation than protecting my house.

Did I mention how much fun it is ?

Offline GearFondler

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Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2019, 06:40:56 PM »
If the forthcoming Pmags are up to their usual standards, then yeah, the Scorpion is a serious tool for serious work.

Offline Montesf1030

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Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2019, 06:46:53 PM »
I see the EVO as having a dual personality.

As a range toy, it's incredible fun.  For home defense, it's a deadly serious weapon -- out to about 75 yards.
For my house and neighborhood, that's about the maximum I would need.

billythe fish says he wouldn't want to engage at 200 m.  For anything over 75 yards, I would only use it to fight my way to my AR-15.
But, that would be a very different situation than protecting my house.

Did I mention how much fun it is ?
Agree


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Offline sboone

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Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2019, 08:59:24 PM »
1. It's a PCC, as a general rule of thumb, a PCC is not typically considered for or designed as a "front line" gun, that is specifically almost always rifle territory, those are built for use and abuse beyond reasonable expectations.  PCC/PDW style guns are meant to supplement larger caliber small arms,  reliable and generally durable, a little bang n bump here and there, not necessarily a 4 story drop.

That being said, as far as PDW goes the scorpion has been routinely pushed past some impressive roundcounts, hitting 5k, 10k, and 15k on a ton of guns without hiccup.  My personal gun is over 2k for sure mostly suppressed with 124 grain standard and +p stuff.  It is capable of easy hits at 150 yds, but adequate energy on target is 100 and less.  I'll grab mine when its needed without hesitation for a light handy low recoil gun to sling massive amounts of lead downrange a stones throw away

Offline brisix

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Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2019, 10:47:56 PM »
I use my Scorpion SBR for USPSA PCC and have around 30k rounds through it since 2017.  I have the CZ Custom trigger pack with trigger job done by their gunsmiths.  The only failures/breakages have been with the Gen 2 OEM mags.  I now use the Manitcore Arms mags with no issues.  I will be trying the Magpul Pmags out once they show up for sale.

I rarely clean the rifle.  It gets a cleaning maybe every 10k-15k rounds.  I lightly oil after cleaning and do not apply oil until its time to clean again.  I did wait to clean the extractor until 30k rounds just to see what would happen.  It was filled with dry gunk but never caused a malfunction. 

The CZ Law Enforcement rep has a machine gun Scorpion that I had the chance to shoot.   He said that rifle has 100k rounds with all OEM parts and has not had a problem.

IMHO these rifles are tanks.

Offline billythefish

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Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2019, 11:59:42 PM »
I see the EVO as having a dual personality.

As a range toy, it's incredible fun.  For home defense, it's a deadly serious weapon -- out to about 75 yards.
For my house and neighborhood, that's about the maximum I would need.

billythe fish says he wouldn't want to engage at 200 m.  For anything over 75 yards, I would only use it to fight my way to my AR-15.
But, that would be a very different situation than protecting my house.

Did I mention how much fun it is ?

I was mentioning 200m in my post purely to make a point to the other poster, I wouldn't use this weapon to engage threats over 50m if I was using it for work...there are much better tools for that job

 

anything