Author Topic: testing other recoil springs in my rami. Ive found 2 options tha work very well  (Read 11725 times)

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Offline charlestheforth

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I'm so happy these springs are helping you out! 

I don't have a caliper, but I have really good eyes and the Wolff and Remington springs look exactly the same diameter.  The Remington springs dont seem to be any stiffer, but you can increase the force of the spring relative to the wolff springs by cutting them longer.  (i suspect any commander 1911 recoil springs could work though, I just only had access to the Remingtons)

I never in a million years thought this info would be useful to anyone else, but the remington springs can be cut to around 5 coils past the end of the guide rod before the length of the spring gets too long and makes it so the slide doesnt have enough room to reach the slide stop.  The problem for me was that my inner spring wasn't strong enough to balance any extra power over around 2 coils past the end of the guide rod. 
It sounds like you have a stronger inner spring though, so the remington springs should be perfect for you.  You'll be able to tune it very precisely by finding the right length for the remington spring.   

GOOD LUCK!  let me know how it works out for you  :D

Offline PappaWheelie

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GOOD LUCK!  let me know how it works out for you  :D
The digital fish scale measurements of racking forces, and the visually improved travel "balance" between inner and outer have already shown it to be a big win, but I'll post the improved casing discharge distance data once I've made it to the pistol range (which happily is outdoors) and shot a group to average. Please patient; it snowed here today!

Thanks again!!!
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Offline PappaWheelie

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DOUBLE SLAM DUNK HOME RUN, charlestheforth!

Not only did the casing discharge distance improve an average (of 7 shots) 1.27 feet towards the ideal 6' when using the Wolff outer spring and Xtreme Defender 90 gr +P+ ammo (9.51' vs. 10.78' with DPM's strongest outer), I learned the potentially life saving fact that Xtreme Defender doesn't reliably feed on CZ 9mm pistols (4/19/19 UPDATE: when limp-wristed...)!!! So I can only use Xtreme Defender in the chamber, with circular nose configuration ammo down below: the Xtreme Defender's cruciform allows its flat nose to catch under the feed ramp and hold the slide from closing way too often(4/19/19 UPDATE: when limp-wristed...).

I ran seven shots through my stock (17#?) recoil springed SP-01 Tactical as well; it also experienced 3 of 6 FTFs (!) with the Xtreme Defender ammo enroute to creating an average casing discharge distance of 8.06 feet.

I've swapped out the ammo in Homeboy CZ 97 BD's magazine with Lehigh Defense Max Expansion as a potentially life saving precaution until I get opportunity to thoroughly test Xtreme Defender in it as well.

It's late, but tomorrow I'll post a new "Shoot Your Defense Ammo, Duh..." thread with my humbling experience. The creation of a YouTube video didn't entail shooting from the magazine:

So once again, thank you, charlestheforth, doubly: had you not posted this thread I wouldn't have (as quickly, at least) discovered the potentially fatal flaw in my Punching Above Weight carry combo! I'll definitely update that thread as well! https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=96929.msg746657#msg746657

Btw, I've read comments about the RAMI having a steeper ramp than the 75 series: its ramp is exactly the same in terms of steepness, but appears to be a little shorter: here's a pic of SP-01 and RAMI barrels "mated" by ramp angle:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1bt7r63Gv-KoxS8CQ0SJ82LvLwrPm69qN
« Last Edit: April 19, 2019, 05:50:02 PM by PappaWheelie, Reason: Added: (4/19/19 UPDATE: when limp-wristed...) 2X »
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Offline PappaWheelie

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It occurs to me that (as a Hail Mary for using this ammo in a CZ magazine with feed reliability) if the cruciform nose of the bullet were to be conical or domed instead of planar, the hangups I observed would be substantially more difficult. I'll give it a try in the near future; if not, I have a surplus of somewhat pricey high speed target ammo, and gratitude for the lesson learned. I'll alert Lehigh Defense and Underwood Ammo re. the above post in the mean time...
Again, thanks charlestheforth!
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CC: CZ 2075 RAMI BD in PappaWheelie Invisible 15 Round RAMI Holster
Homeboy: CZ 97 BD, Underwood 45 Super 120 Grain Xtreme Defender ammo
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-all w/ CGW Short Reset Kit/1485-T2 Disco, 5 "Thick" Trigger, polished SA tooth

Offline PappaWheelie

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I'll give it a try in the near future; if not, I have a surplus of somewhat pricey high speed target ammo, and gratitude for the lesson learned.
Happy update: https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=103666.msg804064#msg804064
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-all w/ CGW Short Reset Kit/1485-T2 Disco, 5 "Thick" Trigger, polished SA tooth

Offline PappaWheelie

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« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 03:51:26 PM by PappaWheelie, Reason: Added 05/01/2019 UPDATE »
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-all w/ CGW Short Reset Kit/1485-T2 Disco, 5 "Thick" Trigger, polished SA tooth

Offline theoldmusicman

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I'm a little over the 500 round mark on my new rami so I thought I would go ahead and order the Wolff springs just in case.  They have both 18# and 21# which one do I need?  What is the weight of the stock cz rami spring?  I use 147gr ammo if that figures into the answer.  Thanks!

Online cousinmark

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    Great post Charles, thanks for the info. I believe that 3rd spring that came in the Wolff package is a firing pin spring. Wolff usually includes one with orders. I'm curious if you have an updated round count on the set up and more importantly what ammos you have tested with?
    Hey Musicman, I'm not sure what the stock outer spring # is? Charles said he used the 18# for his tests...

...no offense anyone but as the +P+ thing was mentioned I'm going to add a PSA. Aluminum frames and +P+ are not a good idea. If you need that kind of juice just get a pistol chambered for something hotter. The RAMI in .40 or that Kimber Ultra in .45 maybe??? Again just an OPINION :-)

Offline PappaWheelie

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Aluminum frames and +P+ are not a good idea.
Hi cousinmark,
You're not alone in your opinion.
I'd be the first to agree that simply shooting +P+ with stock recoil springs, whereby the slide impact forces as gauged by casing discharge distance would be increased, might have adverse effects, especially if done routinely, as in for target practice, as opposed to "virtually never" in case of a Punching Above Weight carry configuration
http://www.czforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=5424.msg22926#msg22926
but if you dug back through the relevant posts you'd see that the stock RAMI springs with Lawman target ammo casing discharge distance of 9.8 ft
http://www.czforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=5506.msg23284#msg23284
compared with the Underwood +P+ Xtreme Defender with latest upgrade recoil springs casing discharge distance of 9.5 ft
https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=102671.msg803459#msg803459
actually documents reduced average slide impact forces.
The RAMI's 7075 T6 aluminum frame, like that of the P-01, is WAY more robust than any of the plastic-framed offerings out there, CZ offerings included. Just sayin...
« Last Edit: May 12, 2019, 01:49:29 PM by PappaWheelie »
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Online cousinmark

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Hey Pappa,

    Yup, you can get a pistol dialed in to run with hot ammo. The thing is though +P+ means it's beyond what the range for +P is, there's a big range of pressures that can be considered +P+. If you're advanced enough to tune a pistol to run well with ammo in that league that's great. It IS going to cause more wear and tear on the pistol though. I realize the aluminum used to manufacture CZ is high quality but it's aluminum. Keep in mind too that the P-01 is designed to run hotter NATO ammo, if I'm correct, the RAMI is not. I'd guess certain areas of the P-01 that are engineered with a bit more of that T6? I'm pretty sure the official suggestion from CZ is to NOT use +P+ in either...
    I'll just throw this out there, the .460 Rowland. It's a super hot .45 essentially. The kits to build one of these little guys REQUIRE a steel framed 1911 as a base. It NEEDS to be steel because it's stronger than aluminum.
   

Offline PappaWheelie

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It IS going to cause more wear and tear on the pistol though.
You keep making these pontifical statements, cousinmark, without providing engineering/physics-based support, and studiously ignoring my very simple postulate that reduced average casing discharge distance reflects generally reduced impact intensity, thus reduced frame stress. On what basis do you envision "more wear and tear" under this lower average stress operating condition? It makes no sense! Where, specifically, does the "more wear and tear" manifest, if not slide-frame impact surfaces?
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Online cousinmark

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Hey Pappa,

    I don't mean to dismiss the fact that a specific spring and ammo can work well together. I mean no disrespect to you. All I'm saying is that IF you are using a higher pressure ammo the extra juice is absorbed throughout the handgun. You are using higher pressure ammo after all... There IS more pressure...The recoil spring is part of the equation but not the entire thing. The fact that casings wind up at a specific spot doesn't mean the pressure in the pistol hasn't been increased.
   I don't claim to be an engineer but have spoken with various representatives and gunsmiths (CZs included) and been told high pressure ammo should be used sparingly at best. This is also what I've read in owners manuals as well, CZ, Kimber, Ruger, Sig and S&W...
    Again, I mean no disrespect Pappa, I consider my sources credible so I've never felt the need to question them.

Offline PappaWheelie

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Hi again cousinmark,
Thanks for the "respect;" I could/should have used, in retrospect, "assertions" rather than "these pontifical statements."

I believe the case can be made for the extra pressure being distributed radially to the barrel (which in 9mm is thoroughly capable; compare the wall thickness difference b/t .45ACP barrels and those of 9mm!), and axially between the recoil spring and the exiting bullet, thus being fully "captured," not "absorbed throughout the handgun." An exception might be the pneumatically-assisted recoil absorption of Walther's CCP and its predecessors, but generally, with exception of neglectably higher contact stress on the (steel) breech face by the (brass) casing, the stress increases throughout the handgun due to stronger recoil springs transferring slightly higher loading to hands, and the marginally increased muzzle flip acceleration magnitude prior to slide bottoming are not significant.

I suspect the wise counsel offered by your credible industry sources has been given in context (or assumption) of not using appropriately stronger recoil springs when shooting +P or +P+ loads. The greatly-increased slide-frame impact loading associated with swapping out factory recoil springs for lighter ones, as is seemingly widely done, represents real risk of frame damage, but this class of device carries, by design, substantially greater stress level factors of safety than most liability-risk products.

And the probability of my needing to actually use the Punching Above Weight SD carry ammo/springs combo is about zero. Ps. 91.11 https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-91-11/ emphasis ALL.
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Online cousinmark

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    Amen Pappa,

    I believe you are correct in your presumption that those "sage" sources I mentioned are not considering a non factory spring, and an owner with an advanced understanding of his/her pistol in the equation. In fact I'd guess they're assuming the worst when it comes to the understanding of firearms and ballistics most humanoids possess :-) It's just simpler to advise against "running with those scissors". When you consider that there is NO actual +P+ standard, it's just beyond +P, that's a hell of a can of worms...
    Sounds like you've got things running well and I hope it continues. I'll be watching for the range reports :-)

Offline eastman

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your extra power springs mean the slide comes forward at increased speed when it slams into battery. ever wonder how people break the slide stop?
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