Author Topic: DA/SA Pistols are "downright dangerous"  (Read 1640 times)

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Offline Hammer Time

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Re: DA/SA Pistols are "downright dangerous"
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2019, 10:14:29 PM »
I don't really want to give a post like that any more traffic than it deserves, but it's actually a pretty good summary of all the ill-informed things I hear from the Gun Culture 2.0 people in regards to DA/SA pistols, encapsulated in one place.

However, the statement that a DA trigger pull, somehow by virtue of its additional weight, "dramatically increases our chances of shooting some innocent person” is beyond dumb - it's downright irresponsible.

And come to think of it, by that logic, then I guess every DA revolver out there also dramatically increases our chances of shooting someone as well?

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Offline Mercs

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Re: DA/SA Pistols are "downright dangerous"
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2019, 11:16:48 PM »
“The DA/SA design was introduced because manufacturers were trying to get around the real disadvantages of the SA 1911”



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Offline aussie57

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Re: DA/SA Pistols are "downright dangerous"
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2019, 06:26:59 AM »
Quote from: aussidon'tlink=topic=102837.msg797032#msg797032 date=1551487795
Well I am of the opinion that DA/SA when mastered is the much safer option.

C'mon Aussie!  You don't have to qualify you statement with "opinion"!  In the fashion of the author, your truth is self evident and any who would disagree with you and the billions of people in your camp are obviously retarded, er, I mean mentally challenged and shouldn't be carrying a weapon.   ;)

Even Glock Leg can be prevented with mind over matter.  They key is, one needs to have a mind.  Never mind the author with his single minded mind games whose advice represents a mine field of opinions ready to explode the knee caps of those followers incapable of  mind over Glock Leg.
Well, when your right, your right. I guess according to the author I should throw away that unsafe RAMI I've been carrying since 2006.

Offline huskerlrrp

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Re: DA/SA Pistols are "downright dangerous"
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2019, 07:41:30 AM »
I didn't waste my time to read the article, but based solely on the title, I fully agree. I started with the M9, then the P226, P228, P220, P229, P225, X-Fives and then CZs... Shadows, CZ75s, Shadow Ts, Shadow 2s, P-1, P-06, CZ75 LS, it goes on and on.... DA/SA pistols have cost me so much money that if my wife ever fully understood I would end up homeless. So yes, "downright dangerous" is spot on.

Offline Hammer Time

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Re: DA/SA Pistols are "downright dangerous"
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2019, 09:10:03 AM »
....DA/SA pistols have cost me so much money that if my wife ever fully understood I would end up homeless. So yes, "downright dangerous" is spot on.

Ha!

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Offline Walt Sherrill

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Re: DA/SA Pistols are "downright dangerous"
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2019, 09:23:21 AM »
I don't consider DA/SA guns dangerous, but I do consider them more trouble than they're worth.   The amount of time and ammo spent training to master the different first and second trigger pulls for DA/SA guns that have been decocked seems time and ammo wasted, to me.  I understand that others feel differently.

The only guns I carry  either can do "cocked & locked" starts, or are striker-fired or DAO.  That's my choice.  You can do as you choose.

The only DA/SA gun I own that isn't able to start from cocked & locked is a sweet Sphinx SDP, which is sweet, simply a fun gun to shoot.  I don't carry it.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 04:36:54 PM by Walt Sherrill »

Offline MadDuner

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Re: DA/SA Pistols are "downright dangerous"
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2019, 09:40:55 AM »
It’s awesome that we have choices to feed our preferences!

Offline Smitty79

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Re: DA/SA Pistols are "downright dangerous"
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2019, 10:18:14 AM »
I shoot USPSA with a Shadow and IDPA with a SW M&P 2.0.   I do shoot 10k rounds a year through DA/SA guns.   I dry fire them 3 or 4 times a week.   I carry a striker gun.   Assuming equal reliability, I believe they are better for civilian self defense.   Civilian gun fights are usually 3 rounds.   For me the DA/SA difficulty of the of the first shot isn't made up for with the easy subsequent SA shots until you are shooting more than 3 shots.   

I will not buy that the DA/SA gun is more dangerous.   When I am acting as an RO, I am always more concerned with negligent discharges on holstering of striker guns.   I read from one of the "training gurus", I think it was Claude Warner but I don't have the citation, that when the LAPD went from Beretta 92s to Glocks, the number of cops who shot themselves doubled. 

If you look at the top competition levels, you see both guns.   In Production/SSP, USPSA seems to have a bias towards DA/SA and IDPA to striker.   But that could be who's getting sponsored.   Internationally, you can't tell.   Until recently, IPSC rules were biased against striker guns.   One interesting point, in divisions where SA guns are allowed, they dominate, even though Bob Vogel does amazing things with Limited set up Glocks.   It will be interesting to see what the new steel frame striker guns do here.

If I had to recommend a defensive gun to a friend who would shoot about 1000 rounds a year and rarely dry fire, it would be a striker gun.   I shoot enough to experiment.   In a test of 2 same size guns that I have practiced with, At any distance, my M&P 2.0 compact out performs my P-07 in a Bill drill (Draw to target and shoot 6 rounds)   The M&P has a stock trigger.   The CZ has a little bit of CGW goodness.  I will admit to feeling the need to be more careful when holstering the M&P.   With the CZ, I can just put my thumb on the hammer and know it won't shoot without the hammer coming back.

With all of that, I can believe that different people find that different things work better for them.   I have friends who shoot a lot and know what they are doing and they carry DA/SA and SAO and believe they shoot them better.   I believe them.   I think this is only true for people who practice.   
Don't mistake my high post count for knowledge or wisdom.   I just like hearing myself type.

Offline Chuck James

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Re: DA/SA Pistols are "downright dangerous"
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2019, 11:05:19 AM »
I've gone from DA/SA revolvers to SA auto's to striker fire auto's and now to DA/SA auto's......... Where will the madness end!!! I've enjoyed every bit of it.

A safety is one thing I've come to dislike on a carry piece.

It is the choice of the individual and then up to them to learn how to use what they've chosen to use.

Offline Hammer Time

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Re: DA/SA Pistols are "downright dangerous"
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2019, 03:25:15 PM »
 A few additional thoughts/observations:

1) In regards to trigger weight, I think people tend to often skew their opinions heavily based on what they are already used to (which these days, is more and more likely to be a light striker trigger) and what they are accurate with at the range, under controlled (and often static) circumstances, often with slow, controlled trigger pulls. That may be a great way to gauge the accuracy of the pistol itself, and to work on your technique, but that isn't necessarily the best way to gauge your accuracy with that pistol under stress in a rapidly changing situation. And I highly doubt that in a real situation, a few pounds difference in trigger is even going to be noticeable. Don't confuse range results with the real world.

As I mentioned above, if typical DA pistol weights are truly a factor in the increased chance of collateral damage, then this would be true with revolvers as well (which have similar trigger weights), and as such, we would have a significant body of evidence to support this from the decades of data collected when revolvers were the dominant handgun. Also, we should see a corresponding decrease in the amount of missed shots and collateral damage with the move by agencies to striker fired pistols. To the best of my knowledge, there is no data to support this theory.

2) I think it's just as easy to make the argument that in a high-stress situation, one is likely to pull a light trigger prematurely, leading to an inaccurate shot. You can construct logic to bolster either perspective, but at the end of the day, I don't think it's really about trigger weight at all - it's about what you train with.

3) While accuracy is obviously very important, so is safety. I have no desire for a manual safety on my guns. At the same time, I know I'm not perfect and can make mistakes. For this reason, I like having a heavier first trigger pull and particularly because I often carry AIWB, I like being able to keep a thumb on the hammer when holstering. These factors, to me, are just as important as the training required to "master" the DA trigger transition, which in general I think some people make a way bigger deal about than it actually is in reality.

As a sidenote, I find it fascinating that people were obviously very capable of being accurate with DA/SA pistols and revolvers for many years, with average DA trigger weights of 10-12 lbs, and yet somehow in the modern striker era, suddenly being accurate with anything more than a 4lb trigger is viewed as next to impossible...
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 08:02:25 PM by Hammer Time »

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Offline Walt Sherrill

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Re: DA/SA Pistols are "downright dangerous"
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2019, 05:03:21 PM »
Quote from: Hammer Time
1) In regards to trigger weight, I think people tend to often skew their opinions heavily based on what they are already used to (which these days, is more and more likely to be a light striker trigger) and what they are accurate with at the range, under controlled (and often static) circumstances, often with slow, controlled trigger pulls. That may be a great way to gauge the accuracy of the pistol itself, and to work on your technique, but that isn't necessarily the best way to gauge your accuracy with that pistol under stress in a rapidly changing situation. And I highly doubt that in a real situation, a few pounds difference in trigger is even going to be noticeable. Don't confuse range results with the real world.

I think the issue isn't trigger weight but, rather, DIFFERENCES in trigger weight with the same weapon, moving from the first to following shots.

We can't address how people actually will use their guns in in truly "stressful" (or life-threatening) situations, but I have scored countless targets in IDPA matches over the years, and I can tell you that the groups on targets fired by DA/SA guns used by experienced shooters (starting from hammer down/decocked) were seldom as tight/small as the groups fired by equally experienced shooters using striker-fired guns or guns that start from cocked and locked.  There were exceptions, but they were rare.

If both types of these experienced shooters shoot as well in real-life conflicts as they did in the gun games, they MIGHT have similar results -- but there was a difference.  But I'm pretty sure that the results from less experienced and less-practiced shooters, the differences might be even greater. and THAT might matter.



Offline Wobbly

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Re: DA/SA Pistols are "downright dangerous"
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2019, 07:06:10 PM »
Did you notice the reference to Jeff Cooper ? Not downplaying Col. Cooper's importance to shooting in general and handguns in particular... no doubt about it he was a giant, but IMHO people that know his name well enough to throw it out tend to be 1911 addicts, and 45ACP worshipers. Not saying there isn't room at the table for those 2, it's just that people that grew up reading Jeff Cooper editorials in the 1970's tend to be the type that only recognize one handgun and only one cartridge.  ::)

And that's the general impression I picked up... an attitude of "go 1911 or go home".
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Offline steerclr

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Re: DA/SA Pistols are "downright dangerous"
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2019, 08:09:42 AM »
I didn't read the article, just the posts.  If it (DA/SA) was such a bad idea why did Walther create the P-38 to replace the P-08?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 10:40:50 AM by steerclr »

Offline Walt Sherrill

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Re: DA/SA Pistols are "downright dangerous"
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2019, 09:22:38 AM »
Quote from: steerclr
I didn't read the article, just the posts.  If it (DA/SA) was such a bad idea why did Walther create the P-38 to replace the P-09?

I think they created the P-38 to get away from the design of the P-08, which required a lot of hand-fitting, and SA was slowly moving out of favor.  The P-08 was a newer design using improved technology and practices.  DAO would've been about as good as DA/SA and, at least theoretically, an even simpler design. 

I've owned examples of both the P-08 and P-38, and found the P-08 to be much more accurate than the P-38.  (I've never heard anyone touting the innate accuracy of the P-38 or P-1. ) I'm reasonably sure that the P-38 was easier to maintain in the field, as parts were more interchangeble (with other P-38 guns or from a parts bin.)
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 07:02:01 PM by Walt Sherrill »

Offline Hammer Time

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Re: DA/SA Pistols are "downright dangerous"
« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2019, 12:02:55 PM »
Kind of a funny related side-story from the range yesterday:

A buddy I shoot with pretty frequently, and who is a good shooter, brought his Sig P226 Legion SAO to the range. I brought my slightly modified CZ SP-01 Tac.

He asked if he could try my CZ. He shot a few rounds with it, and I could hear him muttering. He put a fresh target up with two 10" circles right next to each other. He shot 10 rounds into one of the circles with his Sig and then 10 rounds into the other circle with the CZ, back-to-back. The difference in groups was noticeable, even from where I was standing. "Holy ****," I heard him say.

"Ok, I need to do this again, so I know it's not a fluke." He set up the same situation again with fresh targets. If anything, the CZ group on his 2nd round was even tighter. And keep in mind this was a gun he had never shot before, versus his Sig that he's been shooting regularly for months. "bleep it, I'm shooting better with a gun that cost half as much."

On the drive home he had already decided he's trading in his Sig and he's in the market for a new CZ now...  8)
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 12:29:23 PM by Hammer Time »

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