Author Topic: In praise of the P gun  (Read 1152 times)

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Offline briang2ad

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In praise of the P gun
« on: April 01, 2019, 12:37:00 PM »
Not the striker fired P10 which has little or nothing to do with the original hammer fired CZ.

Shot the SP2022, P99 P07 UG and P09 yesterday at the range.  NO DOUBT.  The shooting ergonomics are superb and drawing and firing DA/SA is a breeze (but I need more practice).  The SP 2022 was close - very close, but I'd give an edge in speed and follow ups to the P07.  It just blends instantly into the hand making the draw/shot too easy.  I would also give an edge for now to the P07 over the P09 on this one facet.  Slow fire, the P09 (in particular my Black one with Dawson blacked out rears and NS front) could really group at 12 yards off hand and made it easy.  But wow, the P07 UG is SO easy to hit with at speed.

But let me add one thing some won't like.  If I HAD to buy one gun - either a P07 or SP2022 sight unseen, with no mods, and use that as my EDC or duty gun, I'd stake the SP2022.  OTB the trigger with no mods is as good as the P07 with CGW SR and springs (15 LB hammer spring) - and it won't break a trigger spring, and it will be smooth/no stacking OTB. 

But because of tweaking and smoothing and CGW, I prefer the P07.   P07 has so much going for it - DA from quarter cock, glues into your hand for speed, points perfectly,  decent sight options, and the trigger CAN be good with the right selection and CGW. 

Improvements needed by CZ UB on next version: 

Ledge sights
Much more aggressive backstrap and front strap stippling (easy to do on the backstrap yourself as a mod, but nice if they did it).
Steel/slim decocker/safety
A redo on QC in manufacturing to reduce tolerance stacking for a consistently made DA trigger pull. 

Offline badwrench

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Re: In praise of the P gun
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2019, 02:01:17 PM »
On your list of improvements I can add a few more

On the P01, CZ 75 series guns..
Drop the polycoat, this stuff was great in the late 80's and all through the 90's... It's 2019, there's much better ways of finishing a pistol..Like black nitride. Nitride every slide, and steel frame, nitride the barrels inside and out, and stop this dumb s#$* of leaving chambers in the white. Rust resistance is part of the package with a pistol that's going to be used as a CCW. You listening CZ?  Also, drop the recurve trigger, bring back the old style you used to use.. and finally, as was mentioned above, sights, the sights on the 75 series guns are horrid.. If you can't design some sights yourselves, then partner up with a American manfacturer who can, and get some decent sights.. It's not that hard...
« Last Edit: April 01, 2019, 02:08:55 PM by badwrench »

Offline Claymore504

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Re: In praise of the P gun
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2019, 07:42:23 AM »
I agree on these points. I really like my P07 and P09, but there are other DA/SA polymer guns that have better triggers out of the box. I would throw the PX4 in there as well. I would also add say that you can get more results out of other guns with less mods. For example, the Beretta 92s that I have responded amazingly to a d spring and elite hammer and very slight amount of polishing.

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: In praise of the P gun
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2019, 09:20:42 AM »
For me, I'm fine with the P07/P09.  I do not believe I've ever shot even one shot DA.  Why?  I brought mine home, removed the decocker levers and installed the safeties.  They get carried cocked and locked and shot SA.  When I bought M&P's I bought the models with thumb safeties so I worked them the same as the 1911.  I put the XDM's away prior to the M&P's.  I recently got an XD - only because it had thumb safeties (as well as the grip safety) which again, makes it function like the 1911.  My P01's are Omega models with thumb safeties installed.

Consistency is key, for me anyway.

Triggers were fine.  Worst was about 3&3/4 lbs. in SA and about 9 in DA (on the trigger pull ga.)  P07 .40 was 3.25 lb. SA out of the box.  P09 9MM was 3.5 lb. SA out of the box but not quite as crisp as the P07.  The P09 .40 S&W was the worst of the three.  And it's still better than the XD/XDM and M&P trigger pulls out of the box.

The P07 and 9MM P09 have proven to be more accurate than the .40 S&W P09.  I'm very happy with my P0X hammer guns.  Two of them have had RMRs and back up sights installed on them.  A testament to their worth.  The RMR's cost what the pistol cost.  The milling, sight installation, slide cerakoting and the stack of spare magazines for each are almost the cost of the original pistols.   And well worth it.  Sooner or later I'll get to the range with the .40 S&W P09 and the XD 5" Tactical .45 and let the groups decide which one gets the new Holosun HC507.  As much as I like the .45 the P09 .40 carries 17+1 (vs. 13+1). 


Sort of like reading about all the problems people report with 1911's, I read about all the issues people report on P07's and P09's just in case, some day, some time, some how, one of mine acts up.  Hopefully I'll remember something about the problem and the fix and help me sort mine out quicker.  Up to now, just like the Colt 1911's, the P0X pistols I have are head/shoulders above my striker fired guns for feel/fit, group size and in the case of the M&P's - reliability.

One of the things most people don't think about, maybe don't care about, is parts availability.  Take a look at parts for just about every big maker of semi auto pistols and figure out where you'd get spare parts from.  Compare that to the availability/ease of obtaining spares for our CZ's.
Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.  So, if you see me walking the dogs with my SIG 556R, its okay.

Offline Claymore504

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Re: In praise of the P gun
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2019, 09:41:46 AM »
I agree on the spare parts idea. I like the M&P M2.0 line, but not being able to get spare parts is a nogo for me. My main platform is the P320 and I can get every single part for those. Same goes for my Sig P226 and 229 guns. I can also get any part I need for the Beretta 92 series guns I have.

So, I really like that I can get all CZ parts right from them and a few other places.

As far as the P07/P09 series goes I am fairly new to them. I checked out some of the "reported problems" before getting into them. So, what I see is broken trigger return springs, broken slide stop lever, damaged firing pin retaining pin from dry fire and corrosion in the chamber due to bare metal.

My question is really, how much of a concern are there reported issues with current P07/P09 handguns? As for the corrosion in chamber issue I do not see many reports of this in the past couple years. I think the latest one I could find was from 2016.

Offline badwrench

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Re: In praise of the P gun
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2019, 10:35:46 AM »
I agree on the spare parts idea. I like the M&P M2.0 line, but not being able to get spare parts is a nogo for me. My main platform is the P320 and I can get every single part for those. Same goes for my Sig P226 and 229 guns. I can also get any part I need for the Beretta 92 series guns I have.

So, I really like that I can get all CZ parts right from them and a few other places.

As far as the P07/P09 series goes I am fairly new to them. I checked out some of the "reported problems" before getting into them. So, what I see is broken trigger return springs, broken slide stop lever, damaged firing pin retaining pin from dry fire and corrosion in the chamber due to bare metal.

My question is really, how much of a concern are there reported issues with current P07/P09 handguns? As for the corrosion in chamber issue I do not see many reports of this in the past couple years. I think the latest one I could find was from 2016.

Well  like any mass produced product, there are going to be ones that were'nt for whatever reason, made right..Overall, I don't think the P09/07series is any worse than any other manfacturer. Sure , if you look when the P09/07's first came out there were some issues, but, when these issues surfaced CZ did something about it and did it quickly..Look how long people have been complaining about Glocks throwing empty brass at them, this started about 2009, and finally it seems Glock got a handle on it with the Gen5..It only took them 10 years to address the issue.. Up until then they denied that there was any problem..

Broken trigger return springs are just how it is..All DA/SA semi auto's will break trigger return springs, sooner or later, it's just a matter of time. I had a TRS break on me while shooting my HK P-2000 I had at the time, not that long ago, Beretta's were well known for breaking TRS's  but, I'll give them credit, they're pretty easy to replace. And, Beretta had improved the quality of their TRS now, and you rarely hear about it, CZ has done the same, as some pics have surfaced on this board recently,of new CZ's with a reddish colored TRS,  If you're worried about it, buy some extra's and learn how to replace them yourself.

Slide stops, yeah, they can break, and this is probably the weak link for CZ's, Buy a spare, and put it up, you may never have a problem with it..since they're made from MIM,  every so often a bad one will get out, However, these usually break early in their service life.  Again if you're worried about it, change it out after you get say, 5-7000rnds on the gun, Frankly, I've been carrying my P07, and I've got probably around 1500-2000rnds on it and have never had a problem. It's not quite stock, but close to it, all I've done is basically change a few springs (including the TRS) install a extended firing pin and shoot the gun, and let it self polish it's internals.. I would'nt have a problem reccommending a P07 to anyone looking for a accurate, reliable CCW.

Corrosion in the chamber..I think I know where that came from....me.. I had a PCR, I was carrying it in the summer, and beleive it or not it can get pretty hot here in Ohio, anyway it in the low 90's  and I'd been carrying my PCR,  and pulled the slide off to look inside to make sure nothing was rusting, that was ok, then I looked in the barrel, and yup, there was rust, which when it was removed, left some nice pitting..exactly how /why this happened, to this day I'm not sure, but leaving barrels with chamber in the white like CZ likes to do dosen't help..I'd note that Glock, HK, S&W M&P's all have barrels that are black nitrided to prevent this from happening, and it dosen't...So, every new CZ I buy, sooner or later gets the barrel black nitirded..corrosion resistance is part of the package for a pistol that's marketed for, and intended to be a CCW.. Why CZ  dosen't nitride ALL of their pistol barrels on pistols sold as or intended as a CCW, I don't know.. if you're interested   www.blacknitride.com
« Last Edit: April 02, 2019, 05:15:12 PM by badwrench »

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: In praise of the P gun
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2019, 12:28:26 PM »
I thought the P07/P09 barrels were black nitride "treated."

I've read, numerous times, about how many gunsmiths will not attempt to increase the leade at the front of the chamber due to the hardness of the barrel metal damaging their chambering/reaming tools.

On this forum, I mentioned one time about how clean/shiny my P07 barrel gets with just a couple dry patches after shooting lead bullets and someone said it was because the barrels are nitrided to make them harder/smoother.

Not an expert, just repeating what I've read.

Hot?  Humid?  Sweaty?

Picture of my P07 after a couple/three hours at the range on a summer day here in central VA and the 30 to 40 minute ride home in the holster under my shirt.  Wouldn't have gotten any wetter than if I'd been caught out in a heavy rainstorm (done that, too, but the sweat is more corrosive than the rain.)


Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.  So, if you see me walking the dogs with my SIG 556R, its okay.

Offline Claymore504

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Re: In praise of the P gun
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2019, 01:34:12 PM »
badwrench, yes that sounds like the example I read about. Does make me wonder why CZ does that with their barrels. I also wonder of the CZ P07/P09 series is that way or not. I have both. Can I tell by looking in the chamber if it is coated or left in the white? I also have an SP-01 Tac, P01 Omega UG/SR and 75B Omega. I am assuming they will have barrels as you described on your PCR.

That would be a concern for me for sure on my P07 since I am looking at carrying it and I live in SE Texas where we have high humidity due to the gulf of mexico and very hot high humidity days most of the year.

Offline badwrench

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Re: In praise of the P gun
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2019, 01:43:00 PM »
I thought the P07/P09 barrels were black nitride "treated."

I've read, numerous times, about how many gunsmiths will not attempt to increase the leade at the front of the chamber due to the hardness of the barrel metal damaging their chambering/reaming tools.

On this forum, I mentioned one time about how clean/shiny my P07 barrel gets with just a couple dry patches after shooting lead bullets and someone said it was because the barrels are nitrided to make them harder/smoother.

Not an expert, just repeating what I've read.

Hot?  Humid?  Sweaty?

Picture of my P07 after a couple/three hours at the range on a summer day here in central VA and the 30 to 40 minute ride home in the holster under my shirt.  Wouldn't have gotten any wetter than if I'd been caught out in a heavy rainstorm (done that, too, but the sweat is more corrosive than the rain.)



They are, but as it was explained to me by someone at CZUSA, when I called, the barrels are finish reamed after nitriding why? I don't know, assuming that's correct, and knowing that nitriding is a surface treatment, the minute you stick a finishing reamer in the chamber and remove metal you're removing any benefit that nitriding would've had. And, now you're left with the chamber in the white..As far as reamers go, sure a nitrided barrel would ruin a reamer made from high speed steel, (which is the most common) but a carbide reamer, nitriding won't hurt it a bit as carbide is much harder than nitride which usually, on a pistol barrel, will run about 70 on a Rockwell C scale, (that's what the folks who nitrided my barrels told me..) So, a nitrided barrel can be reamed, with the right reamer. But carbide reamers are expensive, and I'm thinking about the only place you'll find them is some place where they're going to get used alot, carbide stays sharper,longer, than HSS, so I'm thinking at the manfacturing level..

One thing I've found out about sweat, and those of you who drink lots of coffee like I do, or smoke, may want to pay attention..I have in my safe a mag for a PX4 compact that was Robar'ed twice, and it's rusted, pitted on one side. This mag was used as a reload, and carried daily by me it rubbed up against my body I sweat on it and in about 2-3months it began peeling, and rusting..I contacted Robar,sent them pics, and they were shocked..They paid for me to ship the mag back, and bead blast it and recoat it, I got it back, and in about a month it was rusting again..I contacted Robar again, sent them more pics, about 30minutes after sending the pics, I get a phone call from  Robar.. They told me over the phone that they were quite concerned about the failure of the coating on my mag, and would I mind if the person who invented the Robar coating called me and talked to me? No problem I told them, I figured I hear something in a day or two, but about 45 minutes later this person called.. He explained that when Robar recoated the mag the second time around that there was probably still rust in some of the smaller pits, and that as bad as it was pitted, it should've been thrown in the trash. Then, he asked me two questions which I thought at the time, were odd. Did I smoke, and do I drink coffee? I told him I don't smoke,  but I do drink coffee, how much he asked? Oh, I'll drink a pot all by myself I told him,  Ok, he said, I think we found the problem, he told me that people who drink alot of coffee, or smoke alot have higher than usual levels of Urick (sp?) Acid in their system, that when combined with your already acidic sweat makes for a highly corrosive sweat/acid  and this plays hell on blued, or on steel surfaces left in the white. This made sense to me, as I've always had trouble carrying a reload if the mag was made from steel and blued, they'd rust like crazy, in just a few weeks. Up to that point, Glock mags  were the only ones that I did'nt have a problem with..So, he had a replacement made up for me at no cost, but he double plated it with eletroless nickel, and then robar'ed it.. I later sold the PX4..Lately, I've been using  renaissance wax on my blued mag I use as a reload, I put a couple of coats on every couple of weeks or so, and so far, that seems to work, I also have 4 mags for my P01, I had plated with eletroless nickel by a plating shop about 30 miles from me, and those have held up well, I think I need to gather up some mags and go back up there they did an excellant job, and the turnaround time was about two weeks, which compared to Robar is about 2 months or more..
« Last Edit: April 02, 2019, 05:16:54 PM by badwrench »

Offline badwrench

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Re: In praise of the P gun
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2019, 01:59:07 PM »
badwrench, yes that sounds like the example I read about. Does make me wonder why CZ does that with their barrels. I also wonder of the CZ P07/P09 series is that way or not. I have both. Can I tell by looking in the chamber if it is coated or left in the white? I also have an SP-01 Tac, P01 Omega UG/SR and 75B Omega. I am assuming they will have barrels as you described on your PCR.

That would be a concern for me for sure on my P07 since I am looking at carrying it and I live in SE Texas where we have high humidity due to the gulf of mexico and very hot high humidity days most of the year.

Having lived in S.W. Florida I completely understand your situation,  take a flashlight and look in the chamber you'll see pretty quick , and yes all the pistols you listed will have chamber in the white, in fact those you listed just have a black oxide finish on them, which is'nt much in the way of rust protection.. If you follow the black nitride link I left they also have a shop in Arizona, so, if you wanted to get some pistol barrels done, you would'nt have to ship them to Akron OH, Call them up and talk to them, and explain your situation, if you really want to go whole hog, consider sending a stripped slide as well, or if you want even more, you could do what I did to my SP01compact, and get the slide, barrel, frame, saftey levers, done.. That turned out great!!

Offline flattusmaximus78

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Re: In praise of the P gun
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2019, 08:50:57 PM »
Love my P09. Hammer Spring and it is butter.

The faulty firing pin retaining pin that they knowingly put in these guns, that’s a joke.

Offline badwrench

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Re: In praise of the P gun
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2019, 11:04:22 PM »
Love my P09. Hammer Spring and it is butter.

The faulty firing pin retaining pin that they knowingly put in these guns, that’s a joke.

It is, CZ has to know by now that alot of people replace that pin, and firing pin as one of the first things they do when they buy a new CZ.. Honestly, there has to be a better way of doing that,besides using a pin to hold the firing pin in place..Something else they could look into.. 
« Last Edit: April 02, 2019, 11:10:16 PM by badwrench »

Offline briang2ad

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Re: In praise of the P gun
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2019, 11:08:27 PM »
Quote
Broken trigger return springs are just how it is..All DA/SA semi auto's will break trigger return springs, sooner or later, it's just a matter of time. .  .

Will some other guns break their TRS?  Sure.  But the probability is nothing like a CZ.  With CZ it is a design issue.  It will happen if you shoot and dry fire frequently.  We will see how the new one works.  Got one and it is stronger and yes makes the DA heavier.  Check out the Enos forums.  People there break the stock and CGW ones all the time.  It’s not the same problem in other guns.

Offline badwrench

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Re: In praise of the P gun
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2019, 11:28:13 PM »
Quote
Broken trigger return springs are just how it is..All DA/SA semi auto's will break trigger return springs, sooner or later, it's just a matter of time. .  .

Will some other guns break their TRS?  Sure.  But the probability is nothing like a CZ.  With CZ it is a design issue.  It will happen if you shoot and dry fire frequently.  We will see how the new one works.  Got one and it is stronger and yes makes the DA heavier.  Check out the Enos forums.  People there break the stock and CGW ones all the time.  It’s not the same problem in other guns.

Well, sadly, that's part of the package when you buy a CZ. CGW did have a trigger return spring set up that used up to 3 coil springs, at one point they were almost ready to market it a few years ago, and all of a sudden it was gone, like it never existed.. I don't know what happened there, but that looked like it would've solved the problem.. The only thing I can tell you is to buy spares, and install them yourself, but you already know that.. Every pistol is a compromise, none are perfect. It's up to you, if you can deal with the compromises or not, if you get to the point where you think it's more trouble that it's worth, then, honestly, it's time to move on.. So far I have'nt had any broken TRS's with my CZ's yet..I do daily DA practice as well..

Offline Claymore504

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Re: In praise of the P gun
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2019, 08:03:40 AM »
I contacted CZ questioning the coating on the P07/P09 slide and barrel. They gave me a vague anser saying it was nitride. As for the chamber, I looked at my P07/P09 compared to some other handguns (P320, M&P Shield, P365, Beretta 92A1 and M&P M2.0 5 inch) and the chambers looked the same as far as I can tell. When I compared the P07/P09 to my other CZ handguns (SP-01 Tac, P01 Omega and 75B) the chambers on the 75 series seem to look a little different than the P07/P09.

I guess I am not super familiar with what a "left in the white" chambr would look like, but I am guessing it would just look like raw steel.