Author Topic: When adding a pistol brace remember stay sub 26 inch.  (Read 790 times)

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Offline gary.russell.96930

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When adding a pistol brace remember stay sub 26 inch.
« on: June 07, 2019, 08:48:06 AM »
Had an ad bragging about my Evo 3 S1 with its folding mech and pistol brace pulled down by someone claiming I had created a class 3 AOW.

FML.  Yes. I thought I knew the limits..." Open: the entire gun can't be longer than 26. " Turns out that's only some  state laws issue.

 Not an NFA concern when dealing with pistol. ( Sub 16 inch barrel legaly defined pistol. )

 If you are close, 25 is a good spot to stay safe if required. Folding braces are measured open.

 ( Thanks for clarification)   For all it matters take a pic next to a tape measure just to have it handy.

https://shockwavetechnologies.com/atf-says-that-shouldering-shockwave-blade-is-okay/

The LOP on the brace can not be longer than 13.5 extended on a folding brace when submitting a design for approval. Not NF? law. LOP is measured curve of trigger to end of brace.

Too many of our community will accuse you without knowing what they are talking about.

...and state laws also confuse the issue.


Read the replys- this is ending up as an  informative thread.... I thought I had it all down pat.

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« Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 02:26:09 PM by gary.russell.96930 »

Offline holidaypf

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Re: When adding a pistol brace remember stay sub 26 inch.
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2019, 08:50:42 AM »
I was wondering how the braces differed from stocks!

Offline Inspector 12

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Re: When adding a pistol brace remember stay sub 26 inch.
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2019, 10:01:37 AM »
Different application but my 10 inch AK pistol with a non folding brace is just over 26 overall with a SB2 arm brace.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2019, 10:21:37 AM by Inspector 12 »

Offline gary.russell.96930

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Re: When adding a pistol brace remember stay sub 26 inch.
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2019, 07:10:42 PM »
Every reading of these regulations makes me want to vomit.

I was reading the design submittal reqs for pistol braces-
LOP of folding brace must not exceed 13.5....

I still dont know what that site was worried about. My gun meets all those reqs
 
Turns out the mod thought my AFG was a problem.

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« Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 02:34:47 PM by gary.russell.96930 »

Offline motorolanut

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Re: When adding a pistol brace remember stay sub 26 inch.
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2019, 06:59:45 AM »
Alot of violations have to do with what ATF construes as intent.   
Virtue has united, death shall not separate

Offline rcbif

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Re: When adding a pistol brace remember stay sub 26 inch.
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2019, 08:48:17 AM »
Is the 13.5" thing officially documented in the ATF's NFA description, or are we just going off of some guys letter that poked the bear several times?

Offline Bgdawgrr

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Re: When adding a pistol brace remember stay sub 26 inch.
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2019, 12:33:25 AM »
Different application but my 10 inch AK pistol with a non folding brace is just over 26 overall. Makes it legal to add a vertical foregrip as opposed to the angled foregrip.

Please don?t go to jail. No vertical grip on a pistol. If you do, it?s an AOW and needs a stamp.
If it?s over 26?, yes you can have a vert grip if it?s a rifle. Rifles need >16? barrel or it?s a SBR.
Disregard if you have the proper stamps for an SBR.

For whatever reason, no one cares about angled fore grips on pistols or rifles. I suspect the AFG is to cover the ATF allowing the Auto Ordinance 1924A5 Thompson pistol and what they called a vertical grip, but now we?d call an angled fore grip lol.

Federally, 26? is only a factor for the min length of a rifle.  <26? is considered ?concealable?.
Whether or not your state has a max length for ?pistols? or if you are allowed to conceal carry them is all over.   As far as I have found, feds don?t care. Some state call pistols >26? oal a rifle by definition and depending on barrel length, can get you in hot water. (<16?)

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/open-letter/all-ffls-may2006-open-letter-adding-vertical-fore-grip-handgun/download

https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download

Also, folders are measured unfolded with brace or stock fully extended.
Length of pull is defined as distance from the curve of the trigger to midpoint of stock butt (or brace).
13.5? is not a defined standard, but things get real gray if it goes over that measure.
Ymmv. I am not an attorney, nor play one on tv.  I did recently stay at a Holiday Inn Express though.  :P

« Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 12:46:57 AM by Bgdawgrr »

Offline holidaypf

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Re: When adding a pistol brace remember stay sub 26 inch.
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2019, 09:10:23 AM »
Reminds me of a story. After I took the bar exam I hopped in the car for a long drive while the fumes of remaining freedom exhausted from life.

I've always loved salmon fishing, so when I made it out to Washington, that is what I set out to find a way to do. I found a copy of the rule book and quickly decided it wasn't worth studying up, for what looked like another extensive legal test. Better to just get back in the Mustang and race down the Coast. I broke every traffic law I could without repercussion. But had a dared to fish on the wrong side of a river, with the wrong lure, at the wrong time of day, with the wrong look on my face, I might still be in the pokey.

Some stuff just isn't worth the legal hassle.

Offline Inspector 12

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Re: When adding a pistol brace remember stay sub 26 inch.
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2019, 09:11:43 AM »
Different application but my 10 inch AK pistol with a non folding brace is just over 26 overall. Makes it legal to add a vertical foregrip as opposed to the angled foregrip.

Please don?t go to jail. No vertical grip on a pistol. If you do, it?s an AOW and needs a stamp.
If it?s over 26?, yes you can have a vert grip if it?s a rifle. Rifles need >16? barrel or it?s a SBR.
Disregard if you have the proper stamps for an SBR.

For whatever reason, no one cares about angled fore grips on pistols or rifles. I suspect the AFG is to cover the ATF allowing the Auto Ordinance 1924A5 Thompson pistol and what they called a vertical grip, but now we?d call an angled fore grip lol.

Federally, 26? is only a factor for the min length of a rifle.  <26? is considered ?concealable?.
Whether or not your state has a max length for ?pistols? or if you are allowed to conceal carry them is all over.   As far as I have found, feds don?t care. Some state call pistols >26? oal a rifle by definition and depending on barrel length, can get you in hot water. (<16?)

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/open-letter/all-ffls-may2006-open-letter-adding-vertical-fore-grip-handgun/download

https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download

Also, folders are measured unfolded with brace or stock fully extended.
Length of pull is defined as distance from the curve of the trigger to midpoint of stock butt (or brace).
13.5? is not a defined standard, but things get real gray if it goes over that measure.
Ymmv. I am not an attorney, nor play one on tv.  I did recently stay at a Holiday Inn Express though.  :P
Interesting observation is it was the local ATF rep (who is a pain in buttocks) that stated that a pistol with a brace that was over 26 could run the vertical? Guess I'll read up some more and make sure they aren't running a little entrapment scam? At this point the gun has no front grip because it has Magpul furniture and the forearm has enough swell at the front to work well.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2019, 10:23:45 AM by Inspector 12 »

Offline Manticore_Arms

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Re: When adding a pistol brace remember stay sub 26 inch.
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2019, 09:55:02 AM »
There is no OAL length requirements of a pistol with a brace on the ATF/federal level.

Do not put a vertical grip on your pistol or it becomes an AOW. Do not put a stock on your pistol or it becomes an SBR. The caveat for those two points is it is legal if you have your approved tax stamp.

The LOP may not exceed 13.5? from face if trigger to rear of brace when brace is deployed. This has not been published in a public letter by the ATF as far as I know but it is part of the criteria they use when reviewing brace designs that are submitted.

I am not a lawyer and this is not official legal counsel or advice, however I am fairly confident I have the most  direct experience here with arm braces product development of anyone on the forum. ;)

Sven
Manticore Arms

Offline gary.russell.96930

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Re: When adding a pistol brace remember stay sub 26 inch.
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2019, 01:34:36 PM »
Manticore- Thanks for the clarification.

It is starting to become clear why site hosts in northern states are gun shy on pistol brace pic threads.

The site finally responded stating I had a Foregrip on mine.

They thought any forgrip was illegal.

And LOP being a guideline for design... and not law. GREAT.

I've measured mine trigger to end of brace and its right at 13. I was sweating it for a second.

As posted... Fishing for sockeye might be easier

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« Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 01:57:30 PM by gary.russell.96930 »

Offline Manticore_Arms

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Re: When adding a pistol brace remember stay sub 26 inch.
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2019, 02:14:50 PM »
Manticore- Thanks for the clarification.

It is starting to become clear why site hosts in northern states are gun shy on pistol brace pic threads.

The site finally responded stating I had a Foregrip on mine.

They thought any forgrip was illegal.

And LOP being a guideline for design... and not law. GREAT.

I've measured mine trigger to end of brace and its right at 13. I was sweating it for a second.

As posted... Fishing for sockeye might be easier

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

The worst part is  most gun owners are far more aware and knowledgeable on this stuff than your average ATF Field Agent.  It is definitely a rabbit hole to go down, and the only reason I know most of this is our relationship with a major arm brace manufacturer!

I am happy to answer any questions about this stuff to the best of my ability.

Sven
Manticore Arms